WWF announcing debate mega-thread

[NintendoLogic]

Wrestling is real within the reality of wrestling. Within that same reality, the abdominal stretch is not an effective submission. Again, it wasn't like Gorilla was burying the Million Dollar Dream or the Sharpshooter. And even if you do see it as a serious issue, it was usually mitigated by the color guy. Like, when Gorilla would say something like "In all my years in this business, I've never seen anyone submit to a side headlock," Jesse or whoever else would chime in with how it was supposed to be a wear-down hold. I think the ideal approach was by whoever was announcing this one Flair/Wahoo match I saw. He talked about how the double wristlock wasn't going to win a match on its own, but it set you up to hit the moves that would win the match.

[S.L.L.]

But if you're reacting to wrestling in a sport sense or kayfabe, that doesn't apply. Like in any other sport, you call a flaw in the execution as the play is happening.

Which just brings me back to....

 

To be fair, I think the real guys to blame here are whoever in WWF upper management decided that only hooking the leg at the finish should be part of the house style. That seems like a really bad decision in hindsight, and it must have been a hard one to navigate around on commentary. That said, Gorilla probably would've been better off not bringing it up at all.

I guess that, in kayfabe terms, the comparable example would be if passing to receiver X instead of receiver Y unless you were actually going to score a game-winning touchdown was heavily frowned upon within football - if not necessarily illegal - but said protocol was hushed up to the public for...I dunno...mob reasons. If the announcer knew what was really going on, is drawing attention to it a good idea?

 

Again, I realize that this is very nitpicky stuff. There are many worse announcers in wrestling history than Gorilla, and having grown up with the guy, it's very hard for me to hate on him completely, even if my adult viewing of him shows less and less positive traits. I do maintain a certain fondness for him despite that. I just don't get why we're trying to spin very obvious negatives as positives.

[Dooley]

The announcer's job is not to point out things cynical people in the viewing audience point out.

Aren't the complaints against Gorilla here re: hooking the leg and improper application of the abdominal stretch things that only cynical smarks would point out?

 

To SLL's point: would anyone even be talking about Gorilla knowing the 'WWF house rule' was to only hook the leg on a pin if Meltzer hadn't made it a talking point? So, going back to the 80's a grand total of how many WON subscribers knew this was the case? A couple of thousand maybe? Versus how many who were watching and just thought he was calling the action like any other sports announcer would? Isn't that the same kind of stuff people love early Jim Ross for?

 

I'm not saying there aren't a lot of valid criticisms of Gorilla. I just don't think "burying someone" or "putting himself over" by mentioning someone didn't hook the leg or applied an abdominal stretch improperly are among them.

[Bix]

That was never a Meltzer talking point until...whenever we first discussed it here.

[S.L.L.]

To SLL's point: would anyone even be talking about Gorilla knowing the 'WWF house rule' was to only hook the leg on a pin if Meltzer hadn't made it a talking point? So, going back to the 80's a grand total of how many WON subscribers knew this was the case? A couple of thousand maybe? Versus how many who were watching and just thought he was calling the action like any other sports announcer would? Isn't that the same kind of stuff people love early Jim Ross for?

No. Not at all, really. I can't think of a single instance of praise for Jim Ross shitting on a guy who fucked up, no matter how closely doing so would mirror real sports announcing. Do I have to do the whole "realism vs. reality" thing again?

 

So one of my favorite websites to peruse in my spare time is TVTropes.org, wherein they collect and classify all sorts of tropes/cliches/related phenomena throughout fiction. Some of the more interesting stuff I've read on the site came from this entry and others with a similar theme:

 

"Reality is Unrealistic"

 

"It probably says something about certain segments of the population that many people, when exposed to an exaggeration or fabrication about certain real-life occurrences or facts, will perceive the fictional account as being more true than any factual account of the same. In effect, some are foolish enough to perceive the TV/Hollywood version of something real as being more true than the real thing."

 

To wit....

 

"-Actual rain never looks like real rain on film, which is why they use a hose and sprinkler.

 

-Mice don't particularly like cheese. They like peanut butter a lot. They ate cheese because in an average household... what was most smelly and edible?

 

-Generally speaking, gunshots don't make gigantic bangs and ring out across three city blocks. Real gunshots are often mistaken for firecrackers.

 

-On most hand grenades, pulling the pin isn't what makes them go boom; the pin is just a final safety catch for the lever, which when released sets off the time-delayed detonator."

 

And so on and so forth. But there's another side of this story we have to consider:

 

"The Coconut Effect"

 

"An element that is patently unrealistic, but which you have to do anyway because viewers have been so conditioned to expect it that its absence would be even more jarring. Maybe it's Hollywood Science. Maybe it's Hollywood History. If it's reached this stage, it's probably pervasive enough to be on this wiki.

 

The best example of this is the sound of horse-hooves. From the days of radio, banging two coconut halves together was the standard way to generate the sound effect of horse-hooves. Anyone who has ever actually been around a horse knows that horse-hooves rarely sound anything at all like that, and never sound more than just a very little bit like that. All the same, that sound became so ingrained in the public consciousness that, even when it later became possible to insert much more realistic sound effects, for many years, the coconut sound effect was still used, because the audience wouldn't be able to accept horse-hooves making a sound not generated by coconuts. (This was parodied in the movie Monty Python and the Holy Grail: They didn't actually have horses, just coconuts; where they got a tropical fruit in medieval England is one of the first questions asked. Revived in the Gatorade Quest for G commercial, with Alicia, the Girl who made horse-trotting noises.)

 

While audiences have finally outgrown that particular quirk, there are others which persist, such as the Bang Bang BANG effects of guns — particularly the thwpt sound of a gun with silencer (which sounds nothing like an actual silenced pistol), the ping sound made by a specular reflection, the click of a remote control, the loud thump of lights turning on or off, or noisy explosions in space. There's also all fistfight noises — the completely madeup sound of a person getting punched in the face in a movie, as well as the exaggerated smack of a boxing glove, both of which are considerably quieter, more muffled and less dramatic in real life. Also note that, in a more medieval setting, whenever a sword is unsheathed, there is always a sound of scraping metal, even if the sheath is made of leather. In sword duels, there's always a loud, echoey clash of metal, when in reality, swords just make a small 'tink' sound.

 

This is constantly done in "Wildest Police Chases"/"Wildest Security Camera Video"-type programs; generally speaking, the gun blasts, squealing tires, and crunchy crashes are all dubbed in after-the-fact, especially in the case of security camera footage, which rarely features an audio track."

 

....

 

t's important to remember that "reality" and "realism" aren't the same thing. Reality is that which is actually real. Realism is what we accept as a reasonable facsimile of reality is things that aren't actually real. In professional wrestling - as with all forms of fiction - Realism is generally preferred to reality, even when reality is unrealistic. Fiction often calls for a certain shorthand way of communicating certain things in an understandable and dramatically satisfying way that might have many different effects of varying degrees of visibility, complexity, and dramatic viability in real life.

In this case, it's not so much a matter of "Realistic Sports Commentary Is Unrealistic". It's "Realistic Sports Commentary - At It's Most Realistic - Is Not Necessarily Advisable".

 

The announcer's job is not to point out things cynical people in the viewing audience point out.

Aren't the complaints against Gorilla here re: hooking the leg and improper application of the abdominal stretch things that only cynical smarks would point out?

Loss is not an announcer. I am not an announcer. No one on this board complaining about Gorilla is an announcer. Most of us are, in fact, cynical smarks. Gorilla was an announcer. He shouldn't be calling wrestling matches like a cynical smark like us.

[Matt D]

Vince in 1984 makes for damn boring radio, i'll tell you that much.

[Matt D]

I think JBL makes Cole way better, for what it's worth. The talk about Rugby last night gave Cole his most entertaining line in forever. "I saw the movie about Mandela."

 

Also, I think I just saw the first Full Nelson Suplex Heenan ever called in a Steiners vs Spicoli/Guy who looks like Spicoli match. He called it the "dreaded nelson toss" and it was awesome.

[S.L.L.]

I think JBL makes Cole way better, for what it's worth. The talk about Rugby last night gave Cole his most entertaining line in forever. "I saw the movie about Mandela."

I always felt the same way. I think I have said this before, but Michael Cole is good at two things as an announcer - getting over the ethical ramifactions of an angle, and setting up JBL for jokes (and playing off of JBL's jokes...three things...almost fanatical devotion to the pope....). Pairing him with JBL really alleviates a lot of the problems I usually have with him.

[Victator]

Cole has been great since Jerry Lawler had a heart attack and he was allowed to be a straight forward play by play guy.

[Matt D]

Also, I think I just saw the first Full Nelson Suplex Heenan ever called in a Steiners vs Spicoli/Guy who looks like Spicoli match. He called it the "dreaded nelson toss" and it was awesome.

The Steiner Screwdriver just showed up for the first time.

 

Heenan: "Wow... that was.. that was like a vertical pileplex!"

[flyonthewall2983]

Cole has been great since Jerry Lawler had a heart attack and he was allowed to be a straight forward play by play guy.

I agree. Great to hear him and JBL again.

[Jingus]

Loss is not an announcer. I am not an announcer. No one on this board complaining about Gorilla is an announcer. Most of us are, in fact, cynical smarks. Gorilla was an announcer. He shouldn't be calling wrestling matches like a cynical smark like us.

...if I bitch about Gorilla'smarks stubbornness in those incidents where he actively disagrees with the referee's decision. then do I enter smark territory? (Note to the new guys: I used to be an announcer in a very small but legitimate company called USWO. I would have been a wrestler, if I hadn't been born with a mild case of cerebral palsy that made me way too clumsy to run any real spots. But my weird little career is a much longer story, and I'm all too human and can't avoid telling stories like the time Bobby Eaton forgot his own spot that he called;)

[Matt D]

I love Gorilla but he was a cynical snark.

[Loss]

Loss is not an announcer. I am not an announcer. No one on this board complaining about Gorilla is an announcer. Most of us are, in fact, cynical smarks. Gorilla was an announcer. He shouldn't be calling wrestling matches like a cynical smark like us.

...if I bitch about Gorilla'smarks stubbornness in those incidents where he actively disagrees with the referee's decision. then do I enter smark territory? (Note to the new guys: I used to be an announcer in a very small but legitimate company called USWO. I would have been a wrestler, if I hadn't been born with a mild case of cerebral palsy that made me way too clumsy to run any real spots. But my weird little career is a much longer story, and I'm all too human and can't avoid telling stories like the time Bobby Eaton forgot his own spot that he called;)

 

If there's not a specific booking point you are trying to get over in doing so, yes, probably.

[Matt D]

I started to think I was wrong about the Monsoon/Polo team.

 

Guess what.

 

I'm not. It's hilarious. Heenan riles Monsoon but Polo pokes at him in completely different ways.

 

Watch this pretty middling (after a rough start) Tatanka/Bam Bam match and tell that me the stuff where Levy asks Monsoon about the longest match he ever had isn't absolutely hilarious.

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7jyrf_ta...m-bigelow_sport

[blueminister]

Levy and Monsoon were a very undervalued team with the "Uncle Gorilla" stuff.

[tomk]

I think it did get the show over. I'd say that an announcer who comes across as smarter than everyone else has more credibility than one who always acts shocked when someone doesn't get a pin off a dropkick. When the same guy who tears wrestlers apart for not hooking the leg says that Hulk Hogan is the greatest professional athlete in the world today, you're more likely to buy it.

 

A near fall is a red herring.

Maybe a book’s narrator should tell you "this is a red herring" because then you'll better trust the narrator’s assessment of the characters. That would make for great fiction.

Growing up I never knew that hooked leg was signal to ref that this was actual real fall, but I’ve seen him use the talking point during a neck bridging section of a Steamboat match and thinking “fuck this guy” this is major spot in match. He’s putting himself over at the expense of the match. (Again I think on some level WWWF/WWF always put more energy into merch than lots of other companies—so on some level if Monsoon’s job is to tell people stop watching this and go to merch table, he’s doing it well).

 

Actually, it happens often in football if a receiver only makes 5 yards on a play where he needed 6 for a first down. The announcer will point out he wasn't in a position to gain the required yardage and question his football sense. Sometimes they'll criticize the coaches for their play calling,

Yes actual sports commentators criticize the stuff they’re watching. Lance Russell often points to holes in Lawler’s game (“famously slow starter”, " letting temper get better of him" etc.)Ron Jaworski says team will never win without a better passing game, Merril Hoge says you need a running game to win. They criticize and are sometimes right and sometimes wrong.”). Monsoon is always right.

 

I started to think I was wrong about the Monsoon/Polo team.

 

Guess what.

 

I'm not. It's hilarious. Heenan riles Monsoon but Polo pokes at him in completely different ways.

Monsoon/Levy team is easily my favorite Monsoon pairing/ Monsoon would often big time Ventura and Heenan ina way that he couldn't big time Levy, since Levy was a guy who's gimmick involved having no gravitas to start with.

[NintendoLogic]

A near fall is a red herring.

Maybe a book’s narrator should tell you "this is a red herring" because then you'll better trust the narrator’s assessment of the characters. That would make for great fiction.

A narrator who puts over every single red herring as the actual denouement is unreliable.

[NintendoLogic]

From the F4W Raw report:

 

Heath Slater and 3MB won this year's first over the top rope challenge. It was Sheamus vs 3MB in a handicap. Sheamus eliminated Jinder first, followed by Drew, before getting eliminated by Heath Slater as Drew and Jinder assisted. Good finish to put over how a group has a better chance in a Rumble match, even if that group is filled with dorks. Layfield was great as the heel commentator who still doesn't get behind geek heels, as he mocked 3MB throughout. After the match, Sheamus hit brogue kicks on everyone.

JBL said a while back that the key to being a bad guy is to have no redeeming qualities and not do anything that could be perceived as cool. So burying heels for being geeks doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than to get JBL over.

[Johnny Sorrow]

There's a big difference between "not being cool" and being total goofball dorks.

[sek69]

There's a big difference between "not being cool" and being total goofball dorks.

 

While this is true, JBL spends more and more time on Smackdown bullying Josh Matthews than calling the action.

[Johnny Sorrow]

There's a big difference between "not being cool" and being total goofball dorks.

 

While this is true, JBL spends more and more time on Smackdown bullying Josh Matthews than calling the action.

 

I watch SD every week and I don't recall JBL ever taking Josh's lunch money or pushing him off the swings.

 

And what's fun about that is most of the shit Josh says that JBL makes fun of is the shit Vince or whoever is feeding him on the headset.

[anarchistxx]

Fuck me, listening to Cole and Lawler's pretend laughter during the last segment of Raw is embarrassing. It's the WWE equivalent of a laugh track.

[jackwebb]

Yeah I am here reading this thread at this moment because I had to turn it off due to the announcer laugh track.

[Ditch]

edit: wrong thread, sorry