What Would It Take To Form a True No. 2 Company To Rival WWE

[Loss]

Oh, and to answer the question, lots of money to burn (I'm talking hundreds of millions of dollars); prime time television; time and patience; a fresh promotional concept; big names; a decent vision for where they want to be in one, three and five years; a strategy for maximizing each revenue stream and lots of luck. Even with those things, it still probably wouldn't work.

[NintendoLogic]

Vince was leveraged up his eyeballs that first year. The WWF expansion wasn't catching on in a lot of places, and he was months behind on payments to his creditors. It was mainly payments from Antonio Inoki that kept him afloat.

[flyonthewall2983]

Interesting, sometimes-forgotten thing: In purchasing the TBS timeslot from Vince McMahon for $1 million, Jim Crockett ostensibly financed Wrestlemania.

 

Vince was right when he told Crockett, as legend goes, "You'll choke on that million."

The first part of that is mentioned on The Rise And Fall Of WCW, I think by David Crockett. And Flair hinted in his shoot interview that it almost bankrupted Vince anyway, without going into detail about it, so if that's true Vince probably choked on it a bit too.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

I've always heard people say he had every last cent in there and then some.

Yeah, that's the story that keeps getting passed around, but the more I think about it the more it sounds like a huge exaggeration. What was he spending so much money on? What were the costs of doing a closed-circuit broadcast? (Hell, what were ANY of the details of doing a closed-circuit broadcast? That was before my time, but everyone who talks about the first Mania today just seems to take for granted that everyone knows exactly how it worked.) I know that all those celebrity cameos must've cost a chunk of change, but surely not nearly enough to bankrupt the guy who already owned the largest wrestling company in the world. Seriously, what was different about this show? It was held at their usual home arena. It mostly starred the usual card of the WWF's regular wrestlers. Why was this supposedly such a risk?

 

They were renting out over a hundred buildings across the country (including big venues like the Boston Garden, Philly Spectrum, and the L.A. Sports Arena) to get people to come and watch wrestling via satellite. And from what I've read, the advance ticket sales for the closed-circuit were not strong, and it looked like the event was going to bomb until the last week or so when Hogan and T went on a PR blitz. There was a lot of risk involved.

 

Also, Vince didn't have anywhere close to the money he would have later. I'd wager he was only worth a few million at that point.

[Johnny Guitar]

Oh, and to answer the question, lots of money to burn (I'm talking hundreds of millions of dollars); prime time television; time and patience; a fresh promotional concept; big names; a decent vision for where they want to be in one, three and five years; a strategy for maximizing each revenue stream and lots of luck. Even with those things, it still probably wouldn't work.

I think it's too late for anybody now.

[Jingus]

They were renting out over a hundred buildings across the country (including big venues like the Boston Garden, Philly Spectrum, and the L.A. Sports Arena) to get people to come and watch wrestling via satellite.

So, was renting these buildings the big expense, then? Because otherwise I don't see how Mania could've cost a hell of a lot more than any other MSG supershow, unless they spent a truly insane amount of money on advertising.

 

Also, about the physical setup: how did that work, in the rented buildings? What sort of screen was the video projected on? Especially since these are sports arenas, not theaters, you'd need multiple screens facing in different directions so the audience could see everything.

 

Also, Vince didn't have anywhere close to the money he would have later. I'd wager he was only worth a few million at that point.

This got brought up once here before, but was never answered: what happened to Vince Senior's fortune? He surely had a shit-ton of money, being the promoter of the largest wrestling federation in the world for several decades. All the profits from all those Bruno sellouts in the Garden went right into VJM's pocket. What other heirs were still alive at the time of his death, how much money was there, and how'd it get divvied up?

[Johnny Sorrow]

double post

[Johnny Sorrow]

Also, about the physical setup: how did that work, in the rented buildings? What sort of screen was the video projected on? Especially since these are sports arenas, not theaters, you'd need multiple screens facing in different directions so the audience could see everything.

I was at the Philly Spectrum for Mania 1. They had the giant square scoreboard thing that hung from the middle of the place draped with four large screens. Like a giant movie theatre with seating for all four screens.

 

And from what I have read, Vince Sr. didn't give Vince Jr the business in some cheery "Here you are, my son! Go forth with my legacy!" deal. Vince had to buy it from his Dad and if he didn't get square with the deal he'd lose the thing. I remember reading how Monsoon owned a big chunk of the business and Vince Jr. had to cut him a deal to get his share, and other types of stories like that. Add in the failures like Inoki/ Ali and even the Evel Knievel thing.* So the idea that they leveraged everything they had on this actually rings very true.

 

 

* http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1090843...sastrous/page/2

[Jingus]

Thanks for a description of the night. Nobody ever bothers to explain exactly how people around the country watched the first Mania; every time it's talked about, everyone seems to just assume that we all know how it worked.

 

And from what I have read, Vince Sr. didn't give Vince Jr the business in some cheery "Here you are, my son! Go forth with my legacy!" deal. Vince had to buy it from his Dad and if he didn't get square with the deal he'd lose the thing.

Oh yeah, of course. Vince had to get Monsoon, Arnold Skaaland, and one or two other guys I'm forgetting to all back him financially in order to buy the company from his dad. But my point is, Vince Sr. was dead by the time Wrestlemania happened. So where did his money go after he passed? He must've been a multi-millionaire, who inherited the fortune?

[sek69]

I would think Sr's money was what Jr used to finance Wrestlemania I. I don't think he'd have the money to bring in the top level celebrities they had with the money he was making on his own projects.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I actually think Vince senior wasn't really all that wealthy. He probably was "rich" by most standards, but probably had his share of debts. At the end of the day he was an old school wrestling promoter. How many die rolling in bucks?

 

Oh, and Mania 1 wasn't at night, it was an afternoon show. And here's a funny story. They kept announcing during the buildup that there was an 11 pm curfew, and my dopey ass took that as them saying this show might go on actually to that time. When the show ended after the main event and the lights came up, I was pissed cause I figured they'd be showing us old matches or some sort of wind down show until 11 pm.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Also, about the physical setup: how did that work, in the rented buildings? What sort of screen was the video projected on? Especially since these are sports arenas, not theaters, you'd need multiple screens facing in different directions so the audience could see everything.

I was at the Philly Spectrum for Mania 1. They had the giant square scoreboard thing that hung from the middle of the place draped with four large screens. Like a giant movie theatre with seating for all four screens.

 

Well then you're lucky. In Dallas they got one 45-inch screen for a 10,000 seat building. And the event was promoted in such a way that many of the fans in attendance thought the matches would be taking place there live.

[Guest Slickster]

I noticed that they hyped WrestleMania on WTBS by implying it would be at the Omni, saying you 'could see all the action live' without out-and-out saying it would be live and in person.

[Bix]

In each market that only had one CCTV venue, they were deliberately vague about the show being on CCTV. If the market had more than one venue to push on TV, they were much more up front about it.

[Jingus]

In Dallas they got one 45-inch screen for a 10,000 seat building. And the event was promoted in such a way that many of the fans in attendance thought the matches would be taking place there live.

So basically all these people paid to show up, and were confronted with the exact same size of television that they probably had in their living rooms. How was this not a huge fiasco with every single fan demanding a refund?

 

I actually think Vince senior wasn't really all that wealthy. He probably was "rich" by most standards, but probably had his share of debts. At the end of the day he was an old school wrestling promoter. How many die rolling in bucks?

He also died just shortly after Vince Jr bought the company, which you'd think would be a pretty huge chunk of change. Did Jr get that money right back, soon after he'd paid it?

[Johnny Guitar]

I actually think Vince senior wasn't really all that wealthy. He probably was "rich" by most standards, but probably had his share of debts. At the end of the day he was an old school wrestling promoter. How many die rolling in bucks?

He also died just shortly after Vince Jr bought the company, which you'd think would be a pretty huge chunk of change. Did Jr get that money right back, soon after he'd paid it?

 

No one know's exactly how much money Vince had to pay his dad, Monsoon,Skaaland & Zacko for the company.

 

Alot of people seem to think that Vince Jr actually bought the company in April 1979 and June 1982 was actually the date that he finally paid them all off.

 

That seem's plausible as going nationwide was a huge risk with no guarentee of success. Vince Sr would have wanted to be paid in full first incase it all went tits up before he fully retired.

 

Some of the old school promoters were quite well off. Don Owen made big bucks turkey farming. Which is why PNW was the second too last territory to go down, and stayed in business as long as it did. Despite not being a big money territory.

 

Who know's how much cash Vince Sr had. He had been successfully promoting the biggest money territory since the 50's so he wasn't in the poor house. But I guess his wive got first dibs on any money when he died.

[Dylan Waco]

Owen also benefited from the fact that he owned his own Arena in Portland which meant he had virtually no overhead cost in the only town that was actually "his."

 

It's also worth remembering that Vince and his dad weren't particularly close for the bulk of Vince's life. It's not like he grew up a member of the Mean Street Posse running around the CT blowing daddy's money on cocaine and call girls. By most accounts Vince was brought in with limited responsibilities and was expected to make due on his own.

[Johnny Guitar]

Owen also benefited from the fact that he owned his own Arena in Portland which meant he had virtually no overhead cost in the only town that was actually "his."

 

It's also worth remembering that Vince and his dad weren't particularly close for the bulk of Vince's life. It's not like he grew up a member of the Mean Street Posse running around the CT blowing daddy's money on cocaine and call girls. By most accounts Vince was brought in with limited responsibilities and was expected to make due on his own.

Yeah, Vince didn't even meet his dad till he was a teenager and once he got his foot in the door he was basically banished to the backwaters of Maine. Which was the ass end of the WWWF , to prove his chops.

 

Owen also benifited from having the rep as a good pay off man and being an honest dude. By wrestling standards.

[khawk20]

So basically all these people paid to show up, and were confronted with the exact same size of television that they probably had in their living rooms. How was this not a huge fiasco with every single fan demanding a refund?

Very few people if any had 45-inch TV's back in 1985. A 27 inch tube tv was proably the norm for your average family. 36 inch tube tvs were considered "big".

 

Having said that, I can't imagine watching the action on a 45-inch screen in a big arena if you wren't within the first 10 rows, tops. I imagine a lot of venues with the same setup had complaints and refund requests.

[FLIK]

Who know's how much cash Vince Sr had. He had been successfully promoting the biggest money territory since the 50's so he wasn't in the poor house. But I guess his wive got first dibs on any money when he died.

Is Vince Sr's wife still alive? I know Vince Jr's mom is still living but not sure about the woman Sr married after they got divorced.

[Mr Wrestling X]

Is Vince Sr's wife still alive? I know Vince Jr's mom is still living but not sure about the woman Sr married after they got divorced.

No, Vince Sr's second wife - Juanita, died in 1998

 

Source

[Bix]

So basically all these people paid to show up, and were confronted with the exact same size of television that they probably had in their living rooms. How was this not a huge fiasco with every single fan demanding a refund?

Very few people if any had 45-inch TV's back in 1985. A 27 inch tube tv was proably the norm for your average family. 36 inch tube tvs were considered "big".

 

Having said that, I can't imagine watching the action on a 45-inch screen in a big arena if you wren't within the first 10 rows, tops. I imagine a lot of venues with the same setup had complaints and refund requests.

 

Pretty sure it was just Dallas. They had other problems like the deceptive advertising and the feed going out in Pittsburgh (leading to a riot and the show being aired for free on a local indy station) but that was the only story about a small screen that was in the WON at the time.

[jdw]

On the discussion Jingus is having with others on whether the WWF would have failed if Mania wasn't a big hit...

 

The WWF wouldn't have failed. Vince wouldn't have gone under.

 

Slow down and think a bit about how Vince has dealt with later declines in the business:

 

He's cut costs

He's cut talent

He's cut shows in less profitable place

He's cut back to the core areas of success

 

Then go and look at the Vince & Hogan vs The World thread and find the places where Vince already had hit success by the time of Mania. He had the pre-existing core of the old WWF "territory", which was far from dead. He had California. He already made strong in roads into AWA Land, while the AWA was already starting to get shakey (though not completely collapsing yet).

 

He had the USA Network in hand. He had set up national syndication.

 

It would have been easy for him to cut costs, and cut talent down from 3 crews to 2. It would have been easy to drop from running 12 (or so) shows in Los Angeles to 8 (or so shows). Same in other markets that popped big gates for Hogan, and less great gates for non-Hogan cards.

 

Dittos with eliminating syndication buys from cities that weren't making money.

 

Vince had already bought out his old man's partners, hence Gorilla's deal to stay on the payroll as part buyout. If he actually owed Gorilla any remaining annual payments, does anyone think that Gorilla would send the company under by demanding payment... or work out new payment terms with Vince?

 

The "everything was rolling on Mania" myth is just that: a myth that no one has spent more than 5 minutes thinking about.

 

Did Vince have a lot rolling on it? Sure. Had he run up a debt? Sure, though probably less than the myth has made it out to be. Would a failure have hurt? Badly? Probably not that insanely bad, as they would have pulled back to areas of success before financially on stronger ground... and then pushed forward again.

 

I did a longer, better version of this on the Torch boards last year when this came up... and probably here as well.

[gordi]

Also, about the physical setup: how did that work, in the rented buildings? What sort of screen was the video projected on? Especially since these are sports arenas, not theaters, you'd need multiple screens facing in different directions so the audience could see everything.

I was at the Philly Spectrum for Mania 1. They had the giant square scoreboard thing that hung from the middle of the place draped with four large screens. Like a giant movie theatre with seating for all four screens.

 

Well then you're lucky. In Dallas they got one 45-inch screen for a 10,000 seat building. And the event was promoted in such a way that many of the fans in attendance thought the matches would be taking place there live.

 

I find it easy to imagine Jerry Jones, in his early 40s, being in that audience and thinking to himself "Screw this! One day I'll build a stadium in Dallas with the biggest TV screen.... in the world!!"

[Bix]

He had set up national syndication.

...which he was paying out the ass for in a bunch of key markets. Remember, the reason everyone after Vince had to pay for good slots was because he made deals like the famous one in St. Louis.

 

I agree that the company wouldn't have died but a lot would've changed. Dropping pay for play syndication in markets where it didn't make financial sense would've been part of that.