Lucha For People Who Don't Like Lucha

[Loss]

This is harder to do than the Joshi thread if only because all of my favorite matches are pretty true. But I'll try to point to good "gateway" matches that are really good and have enough American-style influence that they can be easily enjoyed.

 

Atlantis vs Emilio Charles Jr, 8/11/92

Wow. In a year where Dandy/Casas never happened, this would be peerless. This isn't "quite" as proficient as Dandy/Casas, but it does have other things going for it that are huge positives.

 

The story of the match is pretty consistent throughout all three falls -- Emilio works over Atlantis' arm. It gets him a first fall win, and in the third fall, Atlantis takes a really prolonged, dramatic beating with some outstanding attempts to reach the ropes, where Emilio counters this by grabbing his free arm. Atlantis tries creating space between them by rolling outside, tries getting away, tries doing everything he can ... nothing really works. He's in major peril. Emilio has a pretty wide range of arm submissions at his disposal and all of them look great.

 

Really basic psychology and more great matwork. I don't care for the finish. Atlantis took SO much of a beating that he either should not have won, or the match should have been slightly more even. As it is, he got a lucky flash pin and feels a little like Ric Flair squeaking out a title match. Some of the nearfalls rival those in the best Flair matches, especially the reeeeally close two count off of Emilio's sunset flip.

 

Still, this is yet again one of the best matches of the year, and yet more proof that in 1992, the best wrestling in the world was happening in Mexico.

Silver King vs Miguel Perez Jr, 9/22/95

Awesome match. Very accessible, and something I'd recommend for any lucha primer comp. Silver King is such a charismatic babyface that could have gotten over in the U.S. if he was presented in the right way. I guess you can say the same for Miguel Perez as a heel. This is paced like an American-style match, the crowd is audible, there's blood and a sharp face/heel dynamic and the counts are paced like those in an American match, so many of the things that normally make lucha tough for newbies aren't there. Silver King has some great high-flying offense and is really good at winning over the crowd, but he's not really good at keeping his hair. It goes bye-bye.

[Jingus]

I'm one of those dreaded "don't get lucha" guys. And I'm not even sure exactly why I don't get it. When I first saw Japanese wrestling, I instantly understood it. The very first All Japan match I ever watched (Kobashi/Hansen ftw!) made complete sense to me, and I intuitively comprehended exactly what they were doing and why. With lucha, it rarely if ever "clicks" with me like that. I'll see stuff like those '95 Rey/Juvi matches, and I just don't get the hype. Felt like they did better stuff as cruiserweights in WCW, in sort of a "RVD improved once the WWF made him focus his style and cut out a lot of his superfluous stuff" kind of way. It's not a perfect comparison, because clearly lucha is much more than just two little guys doing flips. But anytime I happen to turn on Galavision to catch a bit of it, I quickly find myself becoming bored and turning it off within half an hour or so. It's a style, mindset, and psychology where I frequently find myself wondering "...why the heck are they doing that?". No entiendo la lucha libre. (That being said, I'd love some example of easy-to-get matches where you don't need to be familiar with the gimmicks or long-term angles involved.)

[Chess Knight]

I've given lucha matches to guys who weren't/aren't into it, and most of the time they've preferred either brawls or emotion-fueled matches. Atlantis v Villano III 3/17/00 and Santo v Dandy v Negro 12/696 were well received by someone who really didn't love matwork heavy lucha.

[NintendoLogic]

I've actually been thinking about starting a general "X for people who don't get X" thread for a while now. I even specifically planned on addressing lucha and joshi.

 

Anyway, I don't know how much worth my recommendations have since I'm hardly a lucha superfan, but I find that stipulation match brawls are the easiest to get into since they're about as straightforward as can be. Something like Santo/Espanto would probably be a good starting point.

[Dylan Waco]

I think all Lucha is easy to get and takes virtually no understanding of long term angles to enjoy. For years I THOUGHT the opposite which is why I ignored it. Oddly the reason for this was that I had gotten heavily into AJPW in the 90's as a result of the writing of jdw and a few others who were able to sketch out these huge narratives/back stories to all these great matches. The matches would have been great on their own, but when you read that stuff first it helped a lot. There was no similarly public person that I knew doing the same for Lucha so for years I convinced myself it would be impossible to figure shit out.

 

The reality - for me at least - is that Lucha is the most accessible style in the World. Even the worst Lucha matches tend to have one or two spots or moments that I can enjoy. The best of them are tremendous.

 

I have no clue what I can possibly contribute to this thread because to me as soon as I really gave Lucha a chance I loved it. I guess the matches where Villano III and Blue Panther dropped their masks would be good picks because it is easy to see the significance of the matches and they aren't filled with the the Lucha matwork that is oddly polarizing to some people. They are also great matches.

[Dylan Waco]

Just for the record here is a link to the match that is probably my favorite Lucha match of all time and possibly the best singles match I've ever seen, Gran Cochise v. Satanico

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpHDi_A6CWk

[ohtani's jacket]

When I first got into lucha, I used to buy tapes and take them over to my friend's house and we'd mark out over all the stuff that different about lucha. If you're going to get into lucha you need to embrace all that stuff and love it. I don't agree with showing people matches that are like a Southern style tag or a classic American brawl or anything like that. I would recommend pure lucha all the way.

[Loss]

When I first got into lucha, I used to buy tapes and take them over to my friend's house and we'd mark out over all the stuff that different about lucha. If you're going to get into lucha you need to embrace all that stuff and love it. I don't agree with showing people matches that are like a Southern style tag or a classic American brawl or anything like that. I would recommend pure lucha all the way.

The point is that some people don't know what to make of it and give up because it's so different they can't understand it. As a result, they miss out on some good stuff. I have always loved singles matches, but the trios matches were really hard for me to get into at first.

 

From that thread:

 

The way they build to technicos comebacks and work toward finishes is totally different from what I'm used to in American and Japanese wrestling, because there aren't really any hope spots in what I've seen so far and the crowd can't be heard for the damn horn.

Also, what's the point in doing 2/3 falls when the first two falls end so quickly? And the horn in the crowd is annoying the Hell out of me because I'm not used to it and I want to hear pops and heel heat.

Do wrestlers actually *tag* in lucha or is it considered fair game for everyone to be in the ring at the same time?

So, in lucha, they're allowed to do doubleteams all they want? They don't have to be back on the apron by the count of five like in American wrestling, right? Or was the ref just being lax in what I watched? I was aware of the touch-the-floor rule, but I couldn't figure out what was going on because there was never really a legal man with two guys standing on the apron.

Lack of familiarity isn't the problem. The way they build and sustain heat is the problem, and spots that normally get a big pop in front of an American audience don't get one so much in front of a lucha audience.

Instead of just telling people to basically learn to love it, why not give people who have these problems something to watch that they can enjoy and understand? I was pretty patient and eventually got it, but it took a while.

 

I started looking at most lucha libre as a real life battle between superheroes more than a fake athletic competition, which helped a lot.

[JerryvonKramer]

I got killed for this before, but it's the matwork I can't stand. I gave almost every single match on the All Japan set that featured either Mil Mascaras or Dos Caras *

[KB8]

OJ has a post in his blog that I've linked a few people to:

 

Bracito De Oro/Cicloncito Ramirez/Mascarita Magica vs Damiancito El Guerrero/El Fierito/Pierrothito, CMLL 10/3/97

 

This was incredible.

 

A lot of people have a difficult time getting into lucha & trios make it harder. Hell, I had to watch this twice to realise it was an incredible match. The thing about trios is that you really have to watch a shitload of them to understand how they work. Trios have a loose structure. There's a few basic forms, but almost everything can be varied, which is why guys like Dr Lucha Steve Sims use jazz analogies -- improvised free form over the top of basic structures (something like that, I don't remember the exact quote.) What that basically means is you can work a trios any way you like, since there's only a few basic rules. You can vary just about anything -- from the length of the falls to the style of wrestling used; rhythm, pace, order... Workers probably don't think about it too much, but that's what they're doing in the choices they make. It's almost like each fall has a scale & workers can play notes up and down that scale.

 

At first it's difficult to know whether what you're watching is actually good, but once you figure out the possibilities it becomes much easier. Take this match for example. If you're wondering why it's great, the simple answer is the matwork, fast exchanges and dives. As Phil Schneider pointed out in the original thread -- http://board.deathvalleydriver.com/index.p...503&hl=mini (great read, btw), this is traditional CMLL build. What really impressed me is how they upped the rhythm of each fall. There's not a lot of rudo work in this match, so it's wrestled at pace. In most trios, the rhythm varies between the first and second fall depending on whether the rudos won or lost the opening fall. Here, the second caida is a faster version of the first. Yet it's even more creative. To keep upping the rhythm, while working more & more interesting holds, is the most impressive thing I've seen in a long time. To top that in the third caida is incredible. The first time I saw this, I thought "OK, it's a workrate match, but where's the rudo/technico stuff?" Now I'm thinking I just saw six guys master the workrate form of lucha libre trios.

 

There's an adage I learnt in screenwriting: ""Anxious, inexperienced writers obey rules. Rebellious, unschooled writers break rules. Artists master the form." There's a lot of guys these days who could do with mastering the form before trying this sort of workrate match.

Those first two paragraphs might not necessarily explain all of the luchaisms in lucha trios matches, but I'd already enjoyed enough lucha before I read that post at the time. Wasn't as big a lucha fan then as I am now, but reading that review made it really "click," and I've enjoyed watching lucha since that point more than I ever had before.

[Loss]

I got killed for this before, but it's the matwork I can't stand. I gave almost every single match on the All Japan set that featured either Mil Mascaras or Dos Caras *

You weren't really killed. Most people said they understood and to give it time. I think I even made a specific recommendation that is more "American" in style (Atlantis/Charles, also mentioned above.)

 

Matwork is my favorite thing about lucha libre personally, mainly for the creativity of it.

[FLIK]

Just for the record here is a link to the match that is probably my favorite Lucha match of all time and possibly the best singles match I've ever seen, Gran Cochise v. Satanico

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpHDi_A6CWk

Heh, never even heard of this match before but i'll def check it out. Shit, not entirely sure if i've ever seen or heard of Cochise at all.

 

It's funny how lucha is still one of the more underpimped styles of wrestling out thear. After all these years I still have no clue what the answer would be to such questions as "who's considered the greatest luchador of all time?" or "what are the consensus picks for best matches".

[Loss]

If at the very least, people know that When Worlds Collide is not the peak of the style and as good as it gets, then at least something has been accomplished.

[S.L.L.]

 

Regarding lucha matwork, I wrote this about the above match:

 

Earlier this year, I dropped by Daniel the Katakana Man's forum to talk about the WKO 100. Daniel is a guy who hasn't been exposed to a lot of lucha (I think) and seems to have a slight aversion to the stuff, but I promised him that if I found some 2011 lucha that I thought might have some crossover appeal, I'd let him know. Well, this match seems to have inadvertently taken dead aim at the lucha neophytes. As much as I don't believe in the need for "lucha eyes", I do realize most people can't be thrown cold into Navarro vs. Solar and be expected to get it immediately. I mean, that kind of match is as alien as E.T. landing in your backyard. You have to be eased into that shit (though once you are, you will look down your nose at everyone else who doesn't get it, but I digress). But this seems like it has real potential as a lucha gateway drug. There is a ton of matwork here, and while it isn't as technically elaborate as your IWRG maestro stuff, the execution is really tight, and I think that makes up for it, and it can hook people who might otherwise be turned off by elaborate lucha matwork. And it's not like the matwork here is dumbed down or anything. It's done in a way that I think would be more accessible to the lucha novice, but it's still very rewarding for long-time fans like myself.

[NintendoLogic]

I watched that minis trios match for the first time last night, and I hated it. As far as I could tell, it was just a mindless spotfest. The only part I liked was the comedy spot where I think Damiancito's teammates got pissed at him for accidentally knocking them off the apron.

 

Since Jerry brought it up, I have some issues with the title match style as well. First of all, I'm philosophically opposed to doing matwork just for the sake of doing matwork. Like, why would you take someone down to the mat when you can just sock him in the jaw? Beyond that, the "creativity" that Loss spoke of is actually a minus for me. Every title match I've seen has at least one hold that absolutely could not be applied if the other guy was putting up even token resistance. Daniel (the aforementioned katakana man) summed up my feelings on the matter when he said that too much of lucha matwork boils down to "here's my wacky show hold, now it's your turn to do your wacky show hold." But the biggest problem I have is that the matwork rarely plays into the finish. It seems like the finish (at least in the first fall, which is usually the only one that's matwork-intensive) comes when one guy misses a move and the other guy gets an instant tap-out or does a majistral cradle or something. All the preceding mat sequences may as well have never even happened. I don't care how beautiful or creative something is. If it isn't going to lead to anything, it isn't worth 10 or 15 minutes of my time.

 

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate and enjoy the very best of the style, like Dandy/Casas and Satanico/Cochisse, for what they are. But I have to be in the right mood. By contrast, Hansen/Kobashi is something I can always plug in and be guaranteed to mark out.

[Graham Crackers]

Since Jerry brought it up, I have some issues with the title match style as well. First of all, I'm philosophically opposed to doing matwork just for the sake of doing matwork. Like, why would you take someone down to the mat when you can just sock him in the jaw?

Well, striking isn't really wrestling, it's just something that you're allowed to do in pro wrestling. Matwork is wrestling. A title match is supposed to be a purely "scientific" contest.

 

One element to keep in mind is the idea that this is a "gentleman's contest" and these guys want to one up each other. How many times have you seen someone throw a chop, then puff out their chest expecting to be chopped back? Negro Navarro applying a hold and releasing it without his opponent escaping is his way of saying "That's all you've got?" He and Solar will do this from time to time but this phenomenon is not as common as some people make it sound. At the end of any chain wrestling sequence in lucha there is a clear winner. Usually it's the wrestler that manages to throw the opponent or the wrestler that gets a near submission.

 

But the biggest problem I have is that the matwork rarely plays into the finish. It seems like the finish (at least in the first fall, which is usually the only one that's matwork-intensive) comes when one guy misses a move and the other guy gets an instant tap-out or does a majistral cradle or something. All the preceding mat sequences may as well have never even happened. I don't care how beautiful or creative something is. If it isn't going to lead to anything, it isn't worth 10 or 15 minutes of my time.

This sounds more like you're describing 70s NWA style matwork. Yes, 70s NWA style matwork might be tied together by limb selling but we know that most of those holds are just to wear down an opponent and will never end a match, which is something I don't often buy into in a post-MMA world but that's a personal thing. In a NWA style match wrestlers have to leave the mat to end a fall. The holds they trade in lucha could all potentially end a match. It's like how an armbar locked in properly in a real fight is often the end of the fight. That matwork isn't time killing, it's both wrestlers trying to end a fall. The end to a fall will usually be more spectacular so that may be where a"mistake" comes in.

 

EDIT: On OJ's blog he has also alluded to the idea that ending a fall with a cradle is the easy way out and that getting a sub is harder work that is more rewarding. You might want to apply that logic to a fall ending on a mistake followed up by a cradle, especially if it's a rudo winning or someone further down a hierarchy. I also want to point out that cradles in lucha are super over and there are some moves like la Casita that are perceived as near impossible to escape. That's why Villano V can win with the Toque Universal even if the ref is slow to count.

[Loss]

Felino vs Ciclon Ramirez, CMLL 7/9/93

This is a match people who are getting their feet wet with lucha should watch. It really is the most American-style lucha match I've ever seen in terms of the way the match builds from fall to fall and the psychology. Much of this is based around Felino destroying Ciclon's arm, and Ciclon coming back with some amazing dives. Nasty submissions, especially the fall finishes. This will finish pretty high for the year for me. Great post-match celebration from Felino too.

[NintendoLogic]

Well, striking isn't really wrestling, it's just something that you're allowed to do in pro wrestling. Matwork is wrestling. A title match is supposed to be a purely "scientific" contest.

If it's a legal wrestling move, how is it not wrestling? I'll admit that my views on this front might be a bit idiosyncratic. I've been playing Street Fighter competitively off and on for over a decade, and the viewpoint in the SF community is that playing to win is paramount and anything other than things like game-breaking glitches is fair game. So I have an instinctive disdain of self-imposed limitations to avoid appearing cheap or dishonorable. Here's a more detailed explanation:

 

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

 

On a related note, I've been watching a fair amount of World of Sport lately. Specifically, I've been watching a lot of Marty Jones on OJ's recommendation, and it seems like every one of his matches ends up degenerating into a brawl. After a while, I was like "Dude, if you're going to end up throwing forearms every single time, why not just do it from the get-go?"

 

This sounds more like you're describing 70s NWA style matwork. Yes, 70s NWA style matwork might be tied together by limb selling but we know that most of those holds are just to wear down an opponent and will never end a match, which is something I don't often buy into in a post-MMA world but that's a personal thing. In a NWA style match wrestlers have to leave the mat to end a fall. The holds they trade in lucha could all potentially end a match. It's like how an armbar locked in properly in a real fight is often the end of the fight. That matwork isn't time killing, it's both wrestlers trying to end a fall. The end to a fall will usually be more spectacular so that may be where a"mistake" comes in.

Yes, it happens a lot in old-school NWA too. But there are exceptions. To take two examples, Baba/Robinson and Jumbo/Brisco are largely mat-based, but they also have strong storytelling. I haven't really seen a lot of that in lucha. Every chain wrestling sequence might have a clear winner, but it hardly ever leads to a sustained advantage. Instead, the match resets and they start from scratch when they lock up again.

[ohtani's jacket]

When I first got into lucha, I used to buy tapes and take them over to my friend's house and we'd mark out over all the stuff that different about lucha. If you're going to get into lucha you need to embrace all that stuff and love it. I don't agree with showing people matches that are like a Southern style tag or a classic American brawl or anything like that. I would recommend pure lucha all the way.

The point is that some people don't know what to make of it and give up because it's so different they can't understand it. As a result, they miss out on some good stuff. I have always loved singles matches, but the trios matches were really hard for me to get into at first.

If they're not interested in those things then too bad for them. There's no rule that says you have to like lucha libre so why dumb it down? If you don't enjoy a match like Trio Fantasia vs. Thundercats then you're not a lucha fan and probably never will be. I don't need some Puro fanboy coming along and pointing out that it's not like puroresu. Why would anyone want it to be like puroresu? I mean pretty much everything people criticise lucha for are things I'm actively looking for in a match. I don't mind explaining lucha to people who have a genuine interest in it, but I'm not gonna waste my time on people who think other styles are inherently superior.

[S.L.L.]

 

Again, not that I would advise a lucha newbie to go cold into maestro wrestling, but if you did, this is a good one to start with for reasons Phil and I explained back when we first saw it:

 

Best singles match I have seen between the two, and possible their best overall interaction. This is a title match, and worked with way more intensity then we often see. Navarro v. Solar happens a ton and frequently it is worked as kind of gentleman's game of one upsmanship, a chess match between two guys who have been meeting at the same park for the last 20 years. Not what's going on here. Here we can feel the stakes, and there is an extra twist and pull on all of the submission holds. Very little catch and release, pretty much everything is countered, often beautifully. I loved how as the match progressed, they would have to grab the ropes more. Lots of things I hadn't seen, even though I have seen them work a million times. Navarro does a ankle pick counter of a lateral press which is amazing, I also loved his wrist leverage judo throw. Solar was right there hold for hold as he always is. Early MOTYC which I could see holding my #1 spot for a while. LUCHA LIBRE!!!

What you guys said. The clipping was odd, but these were two guys putting on a clinic the way only they knew how. The only thing even close to a knock that I've ever had against these matches is that the gentlemanly game of one-upsmanship can sometimes feel like matwork spot-fu to me. Mind you, that's not an actual knock. I'm not anti spot-fu when it's done well, and these guys are the masters, but that's how it can sometimes feel to me. Not here, though. Here, there's a clear build through the entire match, tempers flaring, things getting more intense, and a growing sense of urgency as they work towards the finish where you feel like the gentleman's game might get ungentlemanly at any moment. A great twist on a classic match-up.

[Bix]

Way back when I put together a custom DVD I called "Hateful Lucha" to try to get a friend into the style with the idea being he'd get into the style more easily if he started with some wild brawls. Unfortunately, I didn't burn myself a copy or save the matchlist (there has to be at least one person here who has it, right?) and just deleted it from my hard drive after a while, but IIRC at least the following were on it:

 

- Trio Fantasia (Super Muneco, Super Raton, & Pinochio) vs The Thundercats [Mask match from Monterrey in 1991, bloody mask-ripping insanity that probably scared many children]

- Universo 2000 vs Perro Aguayo Jr. [No blood, but great brawl w/ Perro Sr. at ringside in 12/04. A bit weird since it was on a card honoring Universo and his brothers, but otherwise a great match]

- Jerry Estrads vs Stuka [Hair match from Halloween '94. Brawling, blood, bumps, and dives. Exactly what you'd expect from these guys on paper and a great match. Yes Loss, I will be sending out the copy for the yearbook. ]

[Graham Crackers]

If it's a legal wrestling move, how is it not wrestling? I'll admit that my views on this front might be a bit idiosyncratic. I've been playing Street Fighter competitively off and on for over a decade, and the viewpoint in the SF community is that playing to win is paramount and anything other than things like game-breaking glitches is fair game. So I have an instinctive disdain of self-imposed limitations to avoid appearing cheap or dishonorable. Here's a more detailed explanation:

 

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

Regardless of how you feel about it, the idea that striking during a title match is cheap is a popular idea in the fictional universe of lucha libre. Keep in mind that a punch is, whether it's enforced or not, an illegal maneuver. In the past, title matches were regulated to insure that they would be scientific matches, referees would have had the power to end a title match that turned into a brawl, and the commission may even fine wrestlers who turn a title match into a brawl. If you want to "fight" you don't do it for a title. You do it for honor. That's why the apuesta matches are brawls. Title matches rarely turn into brawls. I know you reviewed Casas vs Dandy. Remember how they traded chops on the outside before slipping back in the ring? They caught themselves getting heated and chose to go back to the mat, for honor.

 

Yes, it happens a lot in old-school NWA too. But there are exceptions. To take two examples, Baba/Robinson and Jumbo/Brisco are largely mat-based, but they also have strong storytelling. I haven't really seen a lot of that in lucha. Every chain wrestling sequence might have a clear winner, but it hardly ever leads to a sustained advantage. Instead, the match resets and they start from scratch when they lock up again.

Think of it like the matwork in a Fujiwara match. Two opponents start in a standing position, they go to the mat, they counter a series of maneuvers but one wrestler grabs the ropes, escapes, or throws the opponent which leads to them going back to a standing position. The action restarts but the wrestlers will sell fatigue or damage from what already happened. Is that starting from scratch? The match may ebb and flow as different wrestlers have an advantage and I'm not sure why you aren't seeing that.

 

Wrestlers who lose the first fall are often dominated by an opponent during the second fall before they make their comeback. This happens in the Casas vs Panther match from this month (not a title match but relevant to how control segments can work in lucha and it's probably still fresh in both of our minds). Also after the opening exchanges in the the first falls of both of their singles from the last year, Casas dominates much of that fall before being submitted by flash armars like in shoot style. In matches with short opening falls and long third falls the final fall usually sees the advantage swing in both directions.

[Frankensteiner]

I would probably add the Dandy/Llanes title match from 3/94. I think this is a match most people can enjoy as everything appears hard fought, it's packed with terrific submission work and the selling of submissions is top notch.

 

I know you reviewed Casas vs Dandy. Remember how they traded chops on the outside before slipping back in the ring? They caught themselves getting heated and chose to go back to the mat, for honor.

There's something similar in the Dandy/Llanes match as well. Dandy slaps Llanes a couple of times with an open hand and Llanes is pissed and rolls-up his fists in response. Ref Roberto Rangel steps in immediately before Llanes even has a chance to think about throwing his fists.

[Timbo Slice]

Villano III/Atlantis Mascara Contra Mascara is a great stand alone match that got my start in lucha, basically. I could see someone watching that and really enjoying it if they weren't big lucha fans.

[Negro Suave]

Since Jerry brought it up, I have some issues with the title match style as well. First of all, I'm philosophically opposed to doing matwork just for the sake of doing matwork. Like, why would you take someone down to the mat when you can just sock him in the jaw? Beyond that, the "creativity" that Loss spoke of is actually a minus for me. Every title match I've seen has at least one hold that absolutely could not be applied if the other guy was putting up even token resistance. Daniel (the aforementioned katakana man) summed up my feelings on the matter when he said that too much of lucha matwork boils down to "here's my wacky show hold, now it's your turn to do your wacky show hold." But the biggest problem I have is that the matwork rarely plays into the finish. It seems like the finish (at least in the first fall, which is usually the only one that's matwork-intensive) comes when one guy misses a move and the other guy gets an instant tap-out or does a majistral cradle or something. All the preceding mat sequences may as well have never even happened. I don't care how beautiful or creative something is. If it isn't going to lead to anything, it isn't worth 10 or 15 minutes of my time.

Punching and kicking with the toe of the boot have always been illegal just not oft enforced in american wrestling. I have generally likened lucha to duels of honor as if they were victorian men duelling with rapiers where in the object wasn't to neccesarily just defeat your opponent, the objective is to either humilate them or make them think twice for slighting you. When you look at the matches not as a contest to see who is stronger, better, faster, but as a way to show dominance by virtue of their athletic acumen be it on the mat or through the air.