The Four Horsemen in the JCP era

[Johnny Sorrow]

I forgot about this until I just saw it. Who was "The War Machine" masked guy who replaced JJ in the WarGames rematch?

[Bix]

Bubba.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Bubba.

Ah, that's right. Thanks, Bix.

[JerryvonKramer]

Decided to take a break from 80s All Japan and to burn into some of this.

 

Will provide some real-time thoughts here:

 

- Shit Manny Ferndandez's forehead is a wreck!

 

- Manny Ferdandez looks pretty good actually, love his matwork and "karate"

 

- There's no way in hell Baby Doll is a size 10, she looks more like a 14 minimum. She's got bigger shoulders than Tully. Wiki says she was 190lbs, that's about 20lbs more than me!

 

- Thunderbolt Patterson is legit awful of the mic. Terrible! He looks pretty awful taking those shots from Arn too. Love this little angle of Ole taking a fancy to Arn and ditching Patterson who he claims that he's been carrying. I laughed when Ole claimed that he was lazy and lying on his belly just as he was making a comeback.

 

- Loving how they aren't the Horsemen yet and how the set weaves between Flair, Tully and Arn. This is top top work Will.

 

- Difficult not to love David Crockett, such a ridiculous figure.

 

- Face roster for the NWA is noticably thin, as Flair is listing them he doesn't have many names to play with beyond Dusty, Magnum TA and Manny Ferndandez. After them it's Terry Taylor and then down to Sam Housten! He ends up namechecking Harley Race and the Von Erichs.

 

- Sam Housten looks about 12 years old. I've just read that he went on to marry none other than the Baby Doll!! She'd eat him alive!

[JerryvonKramer]

-Don Kernodle looks decent. This match vs. Tully has been pretty good.

[goodhelmet]

For the record, Baby Doll wasn't a size 10, she is supposed to be the Perfect Ten... as in Bo Derek.

[JerryvonKramer]

Oh right! That must be one of those cultural zeitgeist things - like "wassup!!!" or whatever. Does anyone still say "perfet ten"?

[JerryvonKramer]

- Seems so odd to think of Arn as a "youngster" because he looked at least 35 even in 1985.

 

- Bob Roop clearly has 70s hair.

 

- lol at some dude in the crowd yelling "Buddy Landell!" at Flair

 

- "You see yours is silver, mine is gold, weighs about 10lbs and represents 80 years of the greatest athletes in this sport" WOOOOO

[JerryvonKramer]

- Flair's disrespect of Sam Houston is tremendous. Could the guys actually hear the commentators in the ring?

 

- Nice butterfly suplex from Flair!

 

- Loving this nasty, arrogant dick Flair abusing Sam Houston.

 

- That "Tully Blanchard Number 1" mark and his friend are probably my favourite wrestling fans ever -- although the grumpy old man and old woman front row centre from Mid-South are close.

[JerryvonKramer]

- wow, Ole's a pretty good promo, never had him down as a great talker but he has some great lines and a menacingly subdued tone.

 

- Has there ever been a cooler move than the slingshot suplex?

 

- Starting to think of Baby Doll as a GREAT valet. Also lol at Dusty: "And I don't care if every woman's organization in the coutnry writes to me" ha ha.

[shoe]

- wow, Ole's a pretty good promo, never had him down as a great talker but he has some great lines and a menacingly subdued tone.

 

- Has there ever been a cooler move than the slingshot suplex?

 

- Starting to think of Baby Doll as a GREAT valet. Also lol at Dusty: "And I don't care if every woman's organization in the coutnry writes to me" ha ha.

 

Ole is a tremendous talker.

[JerryvonKramer]

- I absolutely love that WTBS studio. How big was the crowd in there? 200 people max?

 

- Dick Slater - pretty good promo, never expected him to be a decent talker, can't say the same for Budd Sawyer ha ha

 

- I like how Flair, Tully and the Wrecking Crew are starting to comment on each other now. I also like this angle that is brewing with JJ Dillon and Buddy Landel.

 

- Flair is unreal on the mic. Just when you think you've heard it all, he comes out with lines out of nowhere. "The girls knock on his door, but nobody came ... if you get my meaning". He's a cheeky one! lol

 

- Was the Mid-Atlantic show a B-show by this stage? And who is this "Johnny" with Bob Caudle?

 

- Dusty's "I'll be the judge, the jury and the hangman" promo on Tully is absolutely amazing.

[JerryvonKramer]

- I just marked out when Nikita nailed David Crockett. Fair play to Dave, he really gave it to Ivan and really stood up for Flair. A little strange this angle where he's Flair's babyface in the middle of the Magnum feud.

 

- I'm gaining more and more respect for Dusty with every interview. He's getting over with me as a babyface, and I'm a 29 year old guy from the UK who has never liked Dusty Rhodes, god knows what the core audience must have been feeling. Terrific performer.

 

- Ole talking about Flair growing up on commentary, the foreshadowing is terrific, even if it wasn't planned. And now the triple team, awesome.

 

- Tully's love for Baby Doll comes through strongly every time he talks about here. That's a great sell job.

 

- Flair just gave a promo in which he started out heel (vs. Magnum TA) and ended up face (Nikita), what's interesting there is that by saying "I am America, I represent free enterprise" and getting fans to cheer that, he exposes the hypocrisy of fans booing him for exactly the same qualities against other Americans.

 

- Has there ever been a lower lower midcarder than Pistol Pez Whatley? Rocky King is pretty ripped for an 80s jobber.

[rainmakerrtv]

- Was the Mid-Atlantic show a B-show by this stage? And who is this "Johnny" with Bob Caudle?

Johnny Weaver.

[JerryvonKramer]

- Without doubt, Ole is a great talker

 

- What's that PWI show with Apter and Solie?

 

- Can't believe the GAB '85 matches are clipped. Ring invasion!

 

- Why was Tommy Young always such a physical ref?

 

- OMG! Was not at all expecting the Dusty win there at GAB '85. Celebrated as being a massive deal too. "Baby Doll belongs to Dusty for 30 days" -- really sinister.

 

- Wow, Jim Crockett himself!!!! Never seen him before. He hardly has the charisma of Vinnie Mac does he.

 

- Magnum TA really enunciates every little word, his mouth looks quite unusual during his promos.

 

- The gender politics of this Baby Doll angle are insane, why is Magnum TA always the one to enforce it? He's all over it, seems to love the fact she's now "owned" by Dusty. Ha ha. She looks hard as nails though.

 

- I think Tully is the babyface in this angle.

 

- Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, escape by horse. "Baby Doll! I'm gonna tan your hide!" lol

[JerryvonKramer]

- Arn's promo in the NY cap is AMAZING. He's improved even in the course of this set in the space of a few months.

[JerryvonKramer]

- I like Baby Doll's involvement in Dusty vs. Arn. One of the things I've liked about the JCP storytelling on this set is that feuds overlap. Dusty and Magnum had beef with Ole and Arn, while they BOTH had individual issues with Tully. Mangum TA also had issues with Flair. That's pretty cool and something you never got in WWF really. In WWF, if two guys are feuding they are the ONLY ones they will have any interest in. Here, you have simultaneous angles going on.

 

- Dusty's fired up promo after that match is absolutely amazing.

[JerryvonKramer]

Things Flair does consistently well in his promos:

 

- get himself over (obviously)

- get the sport of professional wrestling over

- get the importance of titles over, not just his own, but any title

- get JCP over

- get his opponent over

 

Every promo is a masterclass in this, and it's why for promos in my view he is GOAT. He's almost always tick all 5 of those boxes while still being entertaining and charismatic as hell.

 

- Jim Crockett is without doubt the least charismatic person ever to appear on a wrestling show.

 

- I LOVED the Andersons and Tully trying to break Sam Houston's arm. I also love how much they pick on Houston as the white meat, underdog babyface - always first out of the locker room, always first to get injured in any angle.

 

- Did Tony Schiavone wear some sort of wig in 1985? His hair is horrendous at times.

 

- Although solid, this match with Tully hasn't done much to win me over re: my genreal antipathy towards Terry Taylor.

 

- Is it just me or has Baby Doll's ass got BIGGER since she spent 30 days with Dusty?

[Loss]

I think my favorite thing about Flair in the 80s was the way he put over any accomplishments of his opponent while still keeping himself strong. You're awesome, you're great, you could beat just about anyone, but you can't beat me. That's essentially what all heel promos should be.

[JerryvonKramer]

Where did I leave off with this ...

 

- Ole's flying knee from the top rope is not a move you'd expect him to do.

 

- I am growing to really love Ole's "realistic" promos.

 

- Sam Houston comes across as being nervous on the mic.

 

- "It is so hard to be humble when you're lookin' like Ric Flair"

 

- lol at Magnum TA dressed as a cop, he looks like something out of the old arcade game Final Fight. Have to say I always thought TA was a lot of hype about nothing, but I think I've seen enough to know that he was a great babyface during this run. Tully seems to be getting better on the mic as this set progresses.

 

- They were really pushing Houston as a young lion at this point, whatever happened to his career?

 

- WOW, Barry Darsow was stacked in 1985. His Russian accent is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS! Ha ha

 

- Still find this dynamic where Flair is a heel generally but a face when vs. the Russians weird. I mean Dusty even came to make the save.

 

- Can't BELIEVE Houston got a pin over AA!

 

- I like this idea that jobbers are ciphers for the faces with whom the heels are feuding. The idea for example that Tully imaginaes that Jim Jeffers is Magnum TA.

 

- Was Buzz Sawyer in one a talent trade deal with Watts? Surprised he played FIP in that match, you'd have thought it would be Taylor.

[Busterira]

Sam Houston and Baby Doll starting dating in 1986 much to Dustys dismay who wanted Baby Doll himself. So Dusty who was the booker banished Houston to the dying central states territory. Houston is has been in and out of prison from what I have read.

[JerryvonKramer]

- The Wrecking Crew's continual victimisation of Sam Housten is really amusing.

 

- Yet AGAIN Flair openly rags on Buddy Landel. Was Landel permanently in the opening match in the Atlanta Superstation cards? He's always just in the ring taking verbal abuse from Ric. I'm intrigued to see how JJ Dillon goes from being his manager to joining up with the Horsemen.

 

- Oh God, Tony's got a week off here, commentary dreamteam of David Crockett and Dusty ... the latter just called Pistol Pez Whatley "one of the greatest black althetes in the world today".

 

- Flair's message is just SOOoooo Reagan's America. It's important to be a winner, it's important to have a "positive attitude", it's important have the trophies and material wealth that comes with success.

 

- Ronnie Garvin! Ha ha, Babydoll just took him out making him look like a complete pussy. Tully's opponent is Sam Houston here, speaking of which it's almost ridiculous that he ended up getting together with Babydoll. She's almost definitely bigger than he is, shades of Eddie and Chyna. Also, LOL at the idea that Dusty wanted her himself, that gives a whole new twist to his booking of the 30 days of "ownership" and of the video with her on a horse. How PERVY was Dusty in that angle?

 

- As we get closer to Starrcade, I love the way Flair becomes gradually more and more heelish. His "I'm on limited time here" attitude with David Crockett is great. "For three and a half years your family has been screwing me like a lot of women I know!" Wow.

 

- Bob Giegel is now the Jack Tunney figure then? His "I can't let this match happen because these two men hate each other too much line" is a bit bizarre.

 

- WHAT THE FUCK??!! Magnum TA: "It's about time that you found out what it's like to be with a real man"

 

TA kisses Baby Doll long and hard for about 30 seconds.

 

David Crockett: "She LIKES it! She LIKES it!"

 

Baby Dolls slaps him in the face.

 

Tully obviously dives in to beat on TA. Awesome heated brawl.

 

I was disturbed by that. Crockett was so creepy, so weird during that segment.

 

- I am entertained by this mini-angle in which Arn tries to steal belts and declare himself champ. It was funny when to took the TV title from Dusty, but when he tried to steal Wahoo McDaniels's Southern Heavyweight title, I cracked up.

 

- So Jim Crockett overturned Bob Giegel's decision? Does that mean the "I Quit" match is sanctioned by JCP but not the NWA?

 

- Ha ha ha, got to love Ole's open hypocrisy. In one promo he rags on Jim Crockett and Magnum TA for going against Giegel, in the next he says it doesn't matter what Geigel or anyone else things, because Arn is the TV champ.

 

Pumped for Starrcade '85 and I might watch the entire card in place of of what's included on the set.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Sam Houston and Baby Doll starting dating in 1986 much to Dustys dismay who wanted Baby Doll himself. So Dusty who was the booker banished Houston to the dying central states territory. Houston is has been in and out of prison from what I have read.

Sam also went to Watts, and he had a short run in the WWF as a dancing Cowboy who was a star but jobbed to the big stars. It was always one of my big "WTF?" things as Vince was signing everyone but Sam Houston was a head scratcher. Even though I liked him. That dude could take a beating.

 

And how do you see Tully and Baby Doll as "faces" against Dusty? Tully was an evil prick and Baby Doll was a bitch who interfered in matches. She deserved to be forced to clean stalls and be Dusty's valet. (And their time together eventually plays into future stories) Now, her "getaway" and what came from it was smart heel work, as her and Tully's cunning plan not only got Tully the US Belt but she also maxed out Dusty's credit card. I loved it at the time, but that's because I loved dastardly heels.

[rainmakerrtv]

Ok, now I just find this bizarre. Tully Blanchard is facing George South and Rocky Kernodle in a random TV match while teaming with *Steve Fricking Regal*! First of all, at this point you usually didn't see the Horsemen teaming with non-Horsemen (at least Leo Burke showing up later made sense as a hired gun to go after Garvin when they were readying a sneak attack). Secondly, I didn't even know Mr. Electricity had ever worked for Crockett. is there some sort of abandonned storyline I don't know about where Regal was trying to get into the Horsemen or something? It just seems so out of the blue.

 

Tangents :

 

A) Is the Steve Regal who shows up in the Buddy Rose set the same "Mr. Electricity" Steve Regal who later worked in the AWA? They really don't look much alike.

 

Is it just me, or were the four Horsemen not really 100% a team until after Ole left? Once they formed, they wouldn't team with outsiders for the most part, but they still seemed to be 3 distinct sub-units (Flair, Tully, the Andersons) who were buddies that looked out for each other rather than an all the way unified force. Maybe it was just JJ. You never saw him out with just Flair or the Andersons, he was either there when Tully was or not at all. Once Lex came in , then you would see him coming to the ring with any of the Four Horsemen.

[jdw]

This Steve Regal is who worked *earlier* in the AWA.

 

AWA --> JCP --> WWF

 

He was the AWA Light Heavyweight (from Buck) and Tag Champ (that goofy win over the Warriors with Garvin).

 

Had a rivalry with Denny Brown for the NWA Jr. Title, had a cup of coffee with it then left to the WWF.

 

The Horsemen were pertty solidly together by the point Regal came in. I do think that Ole was out for a big chunk of the first half of 1986, so you don't see the "group" together as much in that period because he's not around.

 

John