Mr Wrestling X Posted May 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 in fact you might be able to trace the decline of American tag team wrestling in the 1990s to the mishandling of the Gladiators. I disagree, tag team wrestling was still a selling point for promotions until at least the mid 1990's . After doing some research into the Mulkey Brothers and The Gladiators, I found that this happened in 1987 during the Dusty Rhodes era which as everyone probably knows, was a time of unpredictably on Rhodes' part as booker to the point where his style spurned a term - "Dusty Booking". Of course, backstage politics might have played a part in the seemingly aborted push of The Gladiators, it's possible that they rubbed someone in a position of influence the wrong way and were punished by losing to a jobber tag team, albeit in fluke fashion. Speaking of taking a loss a'la fluke, Triple H is pretty well known for losing to people in this fashion, but without actually losing momentum himself. You just have to think back to 2001 and 2004 when Triple H put over Jeff Hardy and Shelton Benjamin respectively, however the result didn't hurt Triple H and the shock victories were quickly forgotten about as Hardy went back to tag team wrestling and Benjamin stayed in the mid card picture. Getting back to questionable booking decisions, it somewhat irks me when promotions book shit such as the champion winning back a title that was vacated from them because of some controversial event. I always see this as a scenario in which to bump up the number of title reigns that a particular wrestler has had, just look at WWC where Carlos Colon has booked his son Carly (aka Carlito) to win the top title on a number of occasions that would make Ric Flair jealous. This is nothing new though as it's always been common place for a promoter to consistently book family members in the main event - often making them the star of the promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 I thought that the Gladiators were going to be something special, but instead they were jobbed out to the Mulkey brothers, of all people, and you can't really recover from a debut like that. They could have been the tag team of the '90s, and in fact you might be able to trace the decline of American tag team wrestling in the 1990s to the mishandling of the Gladiators. This is really hard to argue against. Once the Gladiators were killed off, it was a domino effect. The Rock & Roll Express were hated by fans and out of the promotion within a year. Jackie Fulton was replacing Tommy Rogers and mucking up the Fantastics within two years. Michael Hayes and Jimmy Garvin were calling themselves the Freebirds when they were just a sad imitation. And the destruction of the Midnight Express is pretty documented. Talk about a backlash - this was parasitic booking that eventually destroyed every tag team in the promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Wrestling X Posted May 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 ^ I suppose you could argue that this decline in NWA/JCP lead to WWE being able to acquire teams like Anderson and Blanchard and eventually even The Road Warriors. Like I said though, I still feel that tag team wrestling was just as good as it had been up until the mid 1990's with the likes of The Hollywood Blondes, The Steiner Brothers, Harlem Heat, PG-13, Stars'N'Stripes, The New Hart Foundation, The Quebecers, etc - but I'm sure many people can find reasons to argue with this assertion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 The Conquistadors not going over at Survivor Series 88 was one of the worst booking decisions ever AND also the day tag team wrestling died for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Ok, I feel mean. Mr. Wrestling X, Gregor and I are joking. We're just having fun based off of Jerry Von Kramer's admittedly very funny Greg Valentine post. That's all it was intended to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Wrestling X Posted May 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Ok, I feel mean. Mr. Wrestling X, Gregor and I are joking. We're just having fun based off of Jerry Von Kramer's admittedly very funny Greg Valentine post. That's all it was intended to be. I'm not as old as you guys, so I wasn't around for this stuff! I did get the Greg Valentine joke though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 The Valentine turn is actually pretty fun for what it's worth. As sort of a minor footnote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 For some reason I always liked when long time heels turned face, even if they were usually JTTS's. Kamala comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Did Valentine work babyface anywhere else before 91? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 He was a hot babyface in JCP in early 1984 before leaving for WWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Interesting. I didn't know that. He even teamed with his old nemesis Wahoo a few times, once against the Roadies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 I know this is a WWF-WCW heavy discussion but I think JYD losing to Wrestling II was a WTF moment. It's bad enough the phantom knee incident occurred but it wasn't like II was blowing shit up at the box office and JYD was effectively killed as Black Jesus in the South. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 The Valentine turn is actually pretty fun for what it's worth. As sort of a minor footnote. I don't know if there was any big angle on TV, but I remember the turn happening on an MSG match against Saba Simba. Search. Yep. I love the Internet era of wrestling sometimes : The Hammer turns on Jimmy Hart Valentine had great facials. I loved this guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Then there was a Prime Time match with Bravo. I thought there was a interview leading up to Mania but I was thinking of Hercules leading up to WM VI vs Earthquake instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 OK, I will admit now that the Brock thing is confusing and doesn't make sense. It really does seem like they mistrust him. Kind of weird bringing back a guy you don't trust enough to put in a strong position. Mind you, I don't really care whether the WWE makes any money. Let's have some more matches -- like Brock/Triple H! I can't wait for Shawn's tearful pleas for Hunter not to face Lesnar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Oh wow, now I'm interested. Never knew Valentine was given an angle for his turn. Just always figured he disappeared for a while after Honky left and then came back as a sort of de facto face. Wow, amazes me sometimes that I can still find out new stuff about WWF in 91, even now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 I know this is a WWF-WCW heavy discussion but I think JYD losing to Wrestling II was a WTF moment. It's bad enough the phantom knee incident occurred but it wasn't like II was blowing shit up at the box office and JYD was effectively killed as Black Jesus in the South.Watts should have realized that phantom knee incident was going to kill JYD, even if he thought having him lose to II would be ok. Maybe he should have tried to figure out a way to sell it like JYD was forced to take a dive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Oh wow, now I'm interested. Never knew Valentine was given an angle for his turn. Just always figured he disappeared for a while after Honky left and then came back as a sort of de facto face. Wow, amazes me sometimes that I can still find out new stuff about WWF in 91, even now. there are a lot of neat/weird MSG things in 1991 WWF. The weird botched Paul Roma/Shane Douglas match. The Koko vs Tito match where Koko worked heel. Warrior vs Savage in the cage where poor Sherri got brutalized. Harts vs Earthquake+Bravo which isn't as good as it could have been. Kato vs Michaels and Tanaka vs Jannetty Rockers + Virgil vs Orient Express + Fuji Steamboat vs Haku Steamboat vs Smash The WEIRD Fuji vs Heenan mini feud And that's just the first half of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 It's scary how much you know about the WWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 The Koko vs Tito match where Koko worked heel. Yeah, what was the deal with this match? Was Tito originally booked against a heel who no-showed, and Koko was just a last-second fill in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 The weird botched Paul Roma/Shane Douglas match. That's a glorious one. The "You fucked up" chant should have been incented for this referee. The Koko vs Tito match where Koko worked heel. That's a fun one. In retrospect knowing how great of a heel Koko was in Memphis, it's even cooler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 It's scary how much you know about the WWF. It's scary how much we collectively know about pro-wrestling for 20 years ago. Talk about useless knowledge. In a way it's beautiful too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 It's scary how much you know about the WWF. To be fair to myself, I ran down the list at Graham's site quickly. To be unfair to myself, I knew all those things instantly just by seeing them listed again. To me, given how few really good WWF TV matches there are, the MSG (and earlier the Boston, Toronto, Philly) house show matches are a real treasure trove. The Smash vs Steamboat match is one of Darsow's two best singles WWF matches, the other one being an 92 match with Bret. Even on the last taped MSG card, there's a surprisingly good Michaels/Snuka match. But yeah, if I have a niche it'd probably be early 90s WWF. I suppose in some workrate grand scheme of things, that's kind of sad, but at least I bring something different to the table. You would shake your head sadly if you asked me how Misawa or Kawada matches I've seen in my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Wrestling X Posted May 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 ^ To be fair, it seems that most non-puroresu wrestling fans have only seen the "ganso bomb" match in 1999 between Kawada and Misawa. I discovered the delights of puro due to the magazines I read when I was younger, covering wrestling in Japan. I'll be honest and say that despite being a fan of puro, I do find it hard to get into some of the matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negro Suave Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 To me Cena over Brock makes perfect business sense if you are trying to get more interest in your product. The underlying story here to me is a WWE guy went over someone who is now considered a UFC fighter. Holy crap you mean the UFC isn't as tough as the WWE by golly we should watch more WWE! For better or worse WWE has to compete with MMA in general in getting young people interested as well as for the talents of many a man and woman who would otherwise be trainining for MMA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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