Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 This topic has been on my mind while watching the 1990 season of the WWF. I'm not sure exactly how to phrase the question or topic, so I'll just go with it and clarify if needed. I'm really interested in seeing some discussion about this topic, though, so hopefully my ramblings make sense. Listening to Vince McMahon on Superstars and Saturday Night's Main Event in 1990 makes me think he gave guys certain gimmicks just to amuse himself. Yes, I know the story about Dusty and the polka dots, but I'm not talking about giving guys a silly gimmick in a vindicative sort of way. I mean more in an out of touch rich guy sort of way, or a crazy old uncle sort of way. When certain guys' entrance music starts and they come through the curtain, Vince gives this hearty laugh and just seems so proud of himself. For example, Tugboat came out when I was watching Superstars the other night and Vince just seemed so amused by the guy and, in a weird sort of way, proud. I pictured Vince in the room with his team of minions going over gimmicks for this 300-plus pound guy and Vince's face finally brightening and saying, "I got it! Let's make him a sailor and call him Tugboat!" After a brief awkward silence, I envision Vince slapping his minions on the back and saying, "Isn't that a great idea?! Boy, this guy is going to be great. Tugboat! We'll honk a ship horn before he comes out and the people will love it! Tugboat!!!" The minions will feign a smile, put their hands in their pockets, stare at the ground, and say, "Yeah, that's great Vince. He'll go over." I'm probably reading too much into it, but when guys like Tugboat, the Genius, the Bushwackers, the Model Rick Martel or Hillbilly Jim come out, it doesn't feel like McMahon is doing the typical announcer shtick to try and get them over, he seems genuinely impressed by his creation and the character he came up with for these guys. I would compare it to when a little kid draws a picture. If the picture is supposed to be of a horse, but it's really a bunch of scribbles that look like a giant blob, we ask the kid what the picture is and tell him it's the best drawing of a horse we've ever seen. The kid is super proud and goes to show everyone else his amazing piece of art. Anyway, I guess I have two questions for further discussion: 1. Am I completely misreading Vince's reaction to, and perception of, these guys? 2. If I'm not, what are everyone's favorite gimmicks that Vince created just to amuse himself in a non-vindicative manner? I'm not asking for a list of silliest gimmicks, rather gimmicks that Vince seemed extra proud of, or amused by, and was probably the only person on Earth to feel that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 I think the classic example of this is the Killer Bees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 My abiding memory of the "real Vince" is from Behind the Mat when he's there with The Headbangers and is just 100% living the gimmick, no sense of being a real person at all. There are so many examples of this I'll have to have a think. But from a fan perspective the *love* the idea of Vince being really like this and love his sort of out-of-touch uncle amusement. Awesome thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 HA-HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! UUUUUUNNNNNBEEEEEEEEELLLLLLIIIEEEEVVVVAAABBBLLLLLE! ANNNNNYTHINNNGG CAN HAPPEN IN THE WORRRRLLLDDDD WRRRRESSTTLLLLINNNG FEDERATIONNNNNNNNNAAAAHGHGHGHGH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 This is a fantastic topic, and I too have noticed this. There is no way to listen to Vince on commentary during Yokozuna matches and not walk away feeling like he was head over heels for the guy. Even though Yoko was a heel, you could just tell that Vince admired him because he thought he was hitting every note of his act so perfectly. Obviously, Shawn Michaels love is a glaring example too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negro Suave Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 I'll add to that when Vince was doing the play by play on Darren Drozdov puking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 The thing with Vince that stuck out to me was him watching a match and being impressed by some hold. He said "Its nice to see a wrestling move once in awhile." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 What about Hillbilly Jim and his whole crew (Uncle Elmer and the other one) - Vince just loved his southern stereotype gimmicks, but he had a particular thing for Hillbilly Jim. Even brought him back in 96. I know he's WWE backroom staff so is easy to wheel out whenever they need an old face on TV, but I get the impression that Vince is literally the only guy in the world with genuinely fond memories of Hillbilly Jim. Vince seems to have a real, REAL soft spot for his 85-86 era guys. Basically anyone featured in the Hogan cartoon or on Piledriver. Look at how many chances he gave Sheik. Or like giving a job to Volkoff in 94 -- many many other examples. I think that like in his heart of hearts, he sees those guys as a kind of surrogate family. Much more forgiving and "doting" with that group of chracters than with any roster before or since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Guitar Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 Wasn't Tugboat originally billed as "Tugboat" Thomas? Which I guess is a play on "Sailor" Art Thomas. Maybe Vince had fond memories of him. Jericho mentions in his second book that everytime he had a meeting to discuss business. Vince spent most of the time reminicisg about old wrestlers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted May 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 What about Hillbilly Jim and his whole crew (Uncle Elmer and the other one) - Vince just loved his southern stereotype gimmicks, but he had a particular thing for Hillbilly Jim. Even brought him back in 96. Skinner was another southern gimmick that I recall Vince going apeshit for. The way he said Skinner (Skiiiiiiiiiner!!!!) made it seem like he was extra proud of that one as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 The Early Raws are a good place to see some of Vince's feelings, because Bartlett would just go after anyone in any way he could. Like outright making fun of the Undertaker, and then Vince had to respond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 The thing with Vince that stuck out to me was him watching a match and being impressed by some hold. He said "Its nice to see a wrestling move once in awhile."It wasn't even anything special, just a simple bridge on a suplex or something like that. My favorite part is right afterward, when he winces at a head-drop buster move and goes "...we still need a little work there, huh?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 I know he's WWE backroom staff so is easy to wheel out whenever they need an old face on TV, but I get the impression that Vince is literally the only guy in the world with genuinely fond memories of Hillbilly Jim..Nah, I loved Hillbilly Jim. The lead up to him "becoming a wrestler" was great stuff. Jim was a "fan" in the crowd for months on Saturday morning TV. At first they didn't acknowledge him, then they'd occassionally say "Oh the big guy doesn't like these tactics!", to him getting so upset at heels being evil that he jumped the rail to help Hogan, I think. Then they had Hogan train him to be a wrestler. Hillbilly Jim was over as fuck, and then he broke his leg I think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 Isn't that exctly the same angle as Tugboat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Wrestling X Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 I like discussion like this which severely contradicts the "Vince McMahon Truth" told by Matthew Randazzo and others. Some dirt sheet columnists have said stuff about Vince being funny about classic southern style talent and it's associate with "rasslin" - which Vince also apparently loathes. I do think that there may be some truth to Vince being bad at hiding his creation pride, as the thread starter has suggested. I think this may have rubbed off on other announcers too, just listen to Michael Cole hyping some of the original WWE creations, compared to those who have built a reputation in the indies or other promotions - this could be gorilla fed by Vince himself too. It's all subjective eventually, because if Vince and the other creative members get behind someone regardless of their history in the business, then they'll be as hyped as Hogan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 What does this thread have to do with Matthew Randazzo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 I know he's WWE backroom staff so is easy to wheel out whenever they need an old face on TV, but I get the impression that Vince is literally the only guy in the world with genuinely fond memories of Hillbilly Jim..Nah, I loved Hillbilly Jim. The lead up to him "becoming a wrestler" was great stuff. Jim was a "fan" in the crowd for months on Saturday morning TV. At first they didn't acknowledge him, then they'd occassionally say "Oh the big guy doesn't like these tactics!", to him getting so upset at heels being evil that he jumped the rail to help Hogan, I think. Then they had Hogan train him to be a wrestler. Hillbilly Jim was over as fuck, and then he broke his leg I think? I've been watching the 1985 Championship Wrestling shows and saw those vintages. Honestly, Hulk training Hillbilly was absolutely brilliant stuff. Hogan getting pissed off at Hillbilly for always having his hat on got some laughs out of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Wrestling X Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 What does this thread have to do with Matthew Randazzo? I was just mentioning him as an example of painting Vince as this egomanical guy that uses his performers in various ways to fuel his own amusement. True, there have been some documented occasions where Vince has pulled stuff using talent, such as calling Mike Jones "Virgil" as a rib at Dusty Rhodes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 People can have more than one quality. Most of us do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Irwin R. Schyster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Wrestling X Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 People can have more than one quality. Most of us do. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that Vince isn't like the way some people describe him, but I think a lot of it can be down to bitter ex-employees and people that he's rubbed up the wrong way. I think it's easy to say that Vince has been responsible for some awful gimmicks for his own amusement because he's been the only constant in WWF/E history and he has the final word on everything, but I honestly think there are some people on the creative team, now and throughout the years who have thought something was a really good idea and appealed to Vince's receptive side. Vince seemed to really get behind Vader on commentary to the point that it's like he tried to re-brand Vader as his own creation, although in lamest ways possible such as the pre-fix "Big Van" being eliminated and Vince decided to address him as "The man they call Vader" instead. There's a real sense of solidarity to it, as if Vader just appeared in the WWF and had no past - which is more common practice these days than it ever has been. Mind you, it was easier to claim a wrestler was an original creation with minimal gimmick tweaks in the days before the internet and cable TV were available to the masses, but Vader was such a big star in other promotions that people knew who he was, compared to hardly anyone knowing that Hunter Hearst Helmsley was once Jean-Paul Levesque or that Shockmaster was Tugboat/Typhoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Two of my favorite things in wrestling: Vince dancing with Flash Funk Jimmy Wang Yang talking about how much of a mark Vince was for his gimmick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Well, to be fair the "Big Van" part of the moniker was already gone as early as '93. Jim Cornette said Vince wanted to rename him Mastodon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Irwin R. SchysterWas IRS a direct response to the steroid trial stuff, kind of like when the Lakers beat the Nuggets on RAW? I don't know when the government started getting on Vince, so I don't know if it's even possible for that to be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Wrestling X Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Well, to be fair the "Big Van" part of the moniker was already gone as early as '93. Was he not always known as such in Japan? Jim Cornette said Vince wanted to rename him Mastodon. You've just reminded me of that and it could possibly have worked just as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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