Victator Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Demolition sucked. No they didn't. Better team than the Rockers. Sad you are getting to work on the 80s WWF set when you can't even recognize the best WWF teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 If people can watch AWA Rockers matches and think "boy Shawn really had his hand held in that one" I will be pretty surprised. I'm far from a Shawn fan, but he's awfully good in that period. I also want to correct something Vic said. He said it was "sad" that Will gets to work on the WWF Set, but that's not really an accurate accounting of the situation. In fact Will collects the footage, puts the DVDS together, ships them out, et. He is one of three people (sometimes more) who watches matches when and if he is on a committee. Now if it's Vic's opinion that it's "sad" that Will is the person who is going to be issuing the sets there is a pretty simple solution - do the work and release your own WWF Set. You could put fifty Demolition matches on it if you thought they merited that match volume. If it's Vic's opinion that it is "sad" that Will is going to be shitting on Demolition matches and keeping them from making a set he's wrong - that's not how the process works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 I haven't seen the AWA Michaels stuff yet past one bloodbath, but I wouldn't be surprised if he deteriorated as he went along and got more fame/success/confidence. I'd like to see the memphis stuff when they were heels too. I've only seen a couple of studio jobber matches from that period. Does any MSC stuff survive? Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing the AWA work since Dylan and others think so highly of it, especially relative to Michaels' later work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 I'm not as big a fan of the 'Bloodbath' match as some people are (though I still think it's very good), but I think it's pretty clear that Shawn became a more polished, confident wrestler later on. He wasn't 'green' or 'lead by the hand' or anything like that - it's a fucking good performance from him - but to suggest he didn't get better from that point on as an individual performer is silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 This is probably an argument better served to take place once the AWA Set is in people's hands, but I would love to hear how something like MindGames is a better Shawn performance than the peak AWA Rockers tags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 My new theory is that Shawn's increased confidence, and later stroke, meant that he had more match control/input, which led to worse matches as the years went on. But this theory only works if Dylan is right and the AWA stuff is his actual peak when it comes to good performances/smart matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Now if it's Vic's opinion that it's "sad" that Will is the person who is going to be issuing the sets there is a pretty simple solution - do the work and release your own WWF Set. You could put fifty Demolition matches on it if you thought they merited that match volume. If it's Vic's opinion that it is "sad" that Will is going to be shitting on Demolition matches and keeping them from making a set he's wrong - that's not how the process works. He has a hand in the decision making process, and clearly he shouldn't. EDIT: As for the rest, fuck it, I'm too depressed to care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 I won't respond to the rest of the bullshit because the DVDVR sets have all been well-recieved and most of the 1000+ matches I have supported have all had praise heaped upon them. Those who actually buy the sets are the ones whose opinion I will value. I will respond to this though... You never made a compelling argument about how Demolition sucked except for preconceived notions you never had any desire to revisit (which is strange for someone who posts so much here), not liking them when you were younger since they weren't the Road Warriors, and a lack of Movez. Even if you don't like their style, I can't see how you can completely ignore the arguments of the things they do well in every single match that they're in. There is a thread where I watched 3 or 4 recommended Demo matches which were ok but not the lost classics you and Vic claimed they were. I am sure someone could find the actual thread but I am pretty sure it was the PG13 thread. However, I wouldn't waste my time on watching 100 Demo matches in a row because I have better matches to watch for projects I shouldn't be a part of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Where do I think I took my comments from, Will? I took what you said about those matches seriously since you took the effort to watch them, and I generally respect your opinion. You didn't like the Twin Towers match because the Demos weren't manhandling them, specifically because there wasn't a heel in peril segment, which was, at the least, pretty hypocritical. You weren't judging the match but your own preconceived notion about what you wanted. That they were selling for the larger heels seemed like a drawback in your eyes. It was a very frustrating post to read at the time, let me tell you. Your biggest problem with them seemed to be that they were Road Warriors clones to you when you were younger. And then you complained that they didn't work the match like the Warriors would have (no, they worked it smarter and WAY more giving, but to the ultimate benefit of the match, making both themselves and their opponents look better). Even at the worst, "ok" and sucked aren't quite the same thing though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Don't you remember they were bad because Demolition were not doing Fire Thunder Drivers and Space Flying Tiger Drops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 My new theory is that Shawn's increased confidence, and later stroke, meant that he had more match control/input, which led to worse matches as the years went on. But this theory only works if Dylan is right and the AWA stuff is his actual peak when it comes to good performances/smart matches. If you want to make sweeping pronouncements about Shawn's career arc, you should probably watch his 1996 matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Probably should. I was mainly summing up a lot of the note. It sure sounds good though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 My new theory is that Shawn's increased confidence, and later stroke, meant that he had more match control/input, which led to worse matches as the years went on. But this theory only works if Dylan is right and the AWA stuff is his actual peak when it comes to good performances/smart matches. If you want to make sweeping pronouncements about Shawn's career arc, you should probably watch his 1996 matches. Yeah I agree with this. I mean I think Shawn's best performances were 86-88 with a handful of exceptions later on. But I would encourage people who really want to get into the meat of this to watch the most pimped Shawn matches from his singles peak as well as some other stuff from that period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 I've seen the Vader match and the Mind Games match! so there's that. Oh and the Sid Survivor Series Match, and Mania of course. What else should I see from 96? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 I wouldn't argue that Shawn matches got progressively worse. Sure, he had a peak, like any wrestler, but once he became a headliner, his output was pretty consistent. My problem with him was his lack of offense. Jerry also touched on the self-importance/calculation of some of his later matches, which rings true for me as well. I bought him as a guy who could take punishment and come back for sure. I didn't buy him as a threat -- someone who could injure or hurt someone, who could either tie them in knots on the mat or pound them into the ground. Maybe you could argue similar things about other guys who aren't really asskicker types like a Rey Misterio, but the difference was that Rey could win by outwrestling his opponent (which required him to show great skill) while Shawn would win by outlasting/showing resilience (which is more of a booking thing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 I would shoot for both of the DBS matches, the Owen match and the Diesel match from Good Friends Better Enemies. Wait didn't you watch one of the DBS matches the other day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 That was from a msg fancam from 95, I think. The Goldust ladder match was 96 though, so there's that too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 I've never seen the Bulldog match from Beware of Dog pimped by anyone. It's pretty much always described as disappointing. The KOTR match has gotten praise, but I'm not a fan. If you look around on YouTube, you can see clips of a Michaels/Bulldog match from Kuwait (along with some other stuff from that show). It's nothing special. I think that the MSG match was their best together. The International Incident six-man has Michaels working the majority of a 20-25-minute PPV match. Sid and Ahmed just kind of come in and hit their spots; Michaels is in for longer periods of time. TV matches maybe worth seeing (airdates): vs. 1-2-3 Kid (3/4 RAW) vs. Leif Cassidy (3/25 RAW) vs. 1-2-3 Kid (4/27 Superstars) vs. Marty Jannetty (7/1 RAW) vs. Owen Hart (8/12 RAW) vs. Goldust (9/6 RAW) I liked all of them to some degree except for the Jannetty match. He also has a match against Jerry Lawler, but it's a nothing match. Handhelds I've seen out there: Michaels/Diesel vs. Bret/Undertaker (3/17) Michaels vs. Diesel (5/19 - cage, curtain call) Michaels vs. Vader (8/2) Michaels vs. Vader (8/4) Michaels vs. Goldust (8/24 - ladder) All of the handhelds are kind of disappointing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Bulldog match at Beware of Dog was disappointing. I know, I was there live Still think people should watch it, particularly if it's part of the alleged "career year" of Shawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Yeah, when I say i haven't seen much 96 Shawn, that's what I mean, mainly, the TV matches. I've seen very little WWE TV in 96 (which is only worth mentioning since I've seen almost everything there is to see from 90-92, and a whole lot of 93 and the late 80s. I haven't seen all the PPVs either but I've seen some at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 The tv demands were FAR lighter during that era than they are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Bulldog match at Beware of Dog was disappointing. I know, I was there live Still think people should watch it, particularly if it's part of the alleged "career year" of Shawn. The KotR match isn't that much better. Not even the best match of the night, which was probably Austin vs Mero. And Bulldog had a great match a few months before with Bret, and would have a great match a few months later with Owen. I haven't watched it in years, so I don't remember how the One Night Only match compares. Bulldog had a fucked up knee then I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 You can learn a lot more about late 80s early 90s WWF guys from MSG/Boston/Toronto/Philly/PTW shows than you can from most other places. Is that no as true in the mid 90s with Mania or whatever B/C shows they had? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Oh I think you could definitely learn something, but it was not an era with the demands of current tv where a guy like Sheamus is expected to have multiple good tv matches a week. It also was not an era where we have the taped MSG/Maple Leaf/Spectrum/Boston Garden shows like we do with the era before it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Honestly, we lose a lot in 93 relative to 92 as there are less CV tapings and I think we got more out of random PTW matches then we do out of Raw matches. It's one reason why my interest petered out a bit in going through WWF TV. Just as we lost a lot from 91 to 92 in losing MSG, and a lot in 91 and 90 to 89 in losing some of the other arenas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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