Would Shawn Michaels Make Your Personal Top 100?

[Chess Knight]

I assumed he meant the first HIAC. Dunno why, maybe the '(bad) blood' part.

 

EDIT- Shawn and Trip had a god-awful Boot Camp match at Tribute to the Troops in 2005. Might be the worst match they had together which is sort of saying something.

[Exposer]

Blood On The Sand is The Midnight Rockers vs. Rose/Sommers from the Showboat in Las Vegas in the AWA in August of 86. It's a total bloodbath. They call it that because it was a bloodbath in Vegas. Sorry for being so vague. To clear up other confusions, The Brawl In St. Paul is the steel cage match on Christmas of 86 between the same teams. The 87 title switch is in January.

[Loss]

Got it, thanks!

 

In the 90s, Shawn had a lot of really good matches, but I really think he only had three true classics -- the two ladder matches and Mind Games against Foley. I don't even think the first ladder match ages all that well, but that's pretty unimportant, as it popularized a new gimmick on the indies and had a lasting impact (for better or worse) on the working style in WWE. The second ladder match is my favorite Michaels match ever. I consider it phenomenal, to a point where the list of matches that I consider better in wrestling history is a very short one. I wish *that* had been the match that was the influential one -- building off of previous spots to continue and expand on a story, and going after a guy's knee so he can't climb. I love, love, love that match.

[Exposer]

Yeah, I'd have the Shawn-Razor Ladder match at SS at number two after thinking about it. I think it's far better than the original. The original would be last on the list I posted earlier although it's still a great match.

[NintendoLogic]

I had said in the past that the ladder matches didn't hold up that well, but I was going off old memories. When I rewatched them recently, they held up surprisingly well. I'm still opposed in principle to matches where physically beating your opponent is a secondary goal, but they were mostly worked like pseudo-Last Man Standing matches where the focus was on the ladder as a means of incapacitating the opponent rather than a vehicle for stunt bumps. I prefer the first one. The second one is almost as good, but Shawn blowing off the leg work hurt it a lot.

[tim]

I just watched the Summer Slam ladder match for the first time in quite a while and really didn't think much of it. I mean I hate to be the guy to really harp on someone not telling a body part throughout a whole match but it just felt egregious in this case. I mean, Razor THOROUGHLY destroyed Shawn's leg and they devoted a not insignificant chunk of the match to him doing so. It felt to me like after that the leg injury and the dynamic around it hindering Shawn's climbing needed to be THE source of the drama in the match, basically its defining characteristic, but it just felt sort of absurd how quickly it became a non factor. Now I don't mean to take this in the "Shawn can't sell" direction but moreso point out that Shawn is, I guess I'd say, conceptually lazy. Shawn CAN sell an injury to a crowd, and he can emote like hell in the ring. He could have sold that leg for the duration and had a very dramatic match built around it, still being able to work in big spots but actually centering it around the drama of his injury and in the process have a really unique ladder match. But he didn't, and that 'conceptual' laziness has always been my problem with Shawn -- and a lot of darlings of certain corners of net fandom.

 

The long RAW match vs. Cena is something I should watch because I remember in 07 being specifically impressed with Shawn's performance.

[Matt D]

A couple of notes...

 

Most wrestling fans aren't going to take Goldust seriously as a wrestler because they are too hung up on the gay gimmick. No one watching WWF casually in those years was critiquing matches. They were critiquing his lifestyle. Nerds like us critique the matches.

 

Using Dustin as a comparison to Shawn is completely valid. As far as worrying about making an argument to people outside of the board? That isn't the point and would be a wasted effort. The point is to make arguments to other members of PWO.

Honestly, I don't think anyone on this board would have a problem with me saying that I'd rather watch 1992 John Tenta than 1992 Shawn Michaels, and if I explained why and gave examples, people would listen. It's a revisionist board, but it's also an EXTREMELY reasonable one most of the times. So long as you explain yourself and listen to what other people have to say, you can argue anything/

[cm funk]

I haven't seen the SummerSlam ladder match in years. The last time I watched the WMX match it felt dated. Good work, good match, but it doesn't hold up as well as a match like Bret-Owen.

 

I also think HIAC is kind of overrated and hasn't really stood the test of time. I prefer the match with Taker @ Ground Zero in September. I think I might like the casket match from the Rumble better too.

 

Best HIAC IMO is HHH-Cactus Jack, or possibly Taker-Mankind for how batshit insane it was.

 

My favorite post-comeback Michaels' matches are probably the Great American Bash-Unforgiven-No Mercy trio with Jericho

[goodhelmet]

Just gotta say it was funny reading how everyone was confused about Blood on the Sand. Good stuff.

[JerryvonKramer]

For what it's worth, I think the Mania X ladder match with Razor holds up a lot better than Russo-era spot monkey stuff like TLC matches featuring Edge and Christian vs. The Hardy Boys, which -- if you recall -- at the time were raved about as being 5-star affairs.

 

The Mania X ladder match is not spotty and it is worked smartly and believably.

[El-P]

For what it's worth, I think the Mania X ladder match with Razor holds up a lot better than Russo-era spot monkey stuff like TLC matches featuring Edge and Christian vs. The Hardy Boys, which -- if you recall -- at the time were raved about as being 5-star affairs.

 

The Mania X ladder match is not spotty and it is worked smartly and believably.

Agreed. I never got the appeal of the E/C vs Hardys vs Duds matches outside of them being spectacular but carefuly choreographed stuntfests. And when I mean stuntfest, it's to underline the fact that these were not even spotfest in a wrestling sense, these were all about a bunch of guys doing stunts with props and falling from high places. If anything, it makes the WM X match even more relevant now because compared to those matches, it looks even more like a wrestling match which happened to have a prop to get to the belt, as opposed to "hey, look at me while I'm crashing down through a bunch of tables."

Maybe the Benoit vs Jericho ladder match makes Shawn vs Razor dated, but I'm not sure.

[cm funk]

For what it's worth, I think the Mania X ladder match with Razor holds up a lot better than Russo-era spot monkey stuff like TLC matches featuring Edge and Christian vs. The Hardy Boys, which -- if you recall -- at the time were raved about as being 5-star affairs.

 

The Mania X ladder match is not spotty and it is worked smartly and believably.

I agree with that. I find most of those matches completely unwatchable on repeat, the appeal was in the car crash live experience. I think my favorite Hardyz/Dudleys/E&C match is the tables match from Royal Rumble 2000, that's one that I've watched several times and still enjoy.

 

My favorite WWE ladder matches would be Eddie/Tajiri v. WGTT, Benoit v. Jericho and Michaels v. Jericho in some order

 

Apparently Michaels had a ladder match with Goldust for the WWF title at a house show in Toronto in August 96. Has that ever surfaced on tape?

[Ricky Jackson]

Apparently Michaels had a ladder match with Goldust for the WWF title at a house show in Toronto in August 96. Has that ever surfaced on tape?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x648yr_sh...ladder-ma_sport

 

Haven't watched this (just looked it up based on your question) but apparently it's from a show at Exhibition Stadium, site of the Big Event in 86.

[Matt D]

I wrote that up:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...p;#entry5489506

 

 

WWF - 8/24/96 - Toronto - Shawn Michaels vs Goldust - Ladder Match

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x648yr_sh...ladder-ma_sport

Better VQ but only 2/3 of the match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwPrrO-p32o

 

I can see why this match is slept upon. The term "ladder match" creates a certain set of expectations, and those expectations were even more prevalent a few years ago. In this match the craziest bump has nothing to do with the ladder and there's only one real jump off of it. The first half of the match, the ladder doesn't even come into play. It's still really good though, and in some ways more structured and better than most ladder matches.

 

Michaels' intensity in the beginning is great. I've seen very little WWF in 96, actually, so I'm not sure if he started most of his matches with that or not. He has this brutal looking chairshot early on when Goldust is going for the ladder the first time, which sort of explains why the ladder doesn't play much of a role for the first half of the match (as Dustin paid bigtime for trying to get it too early). Dustin's punches and general offense look great. Michaels bumps big for him, including one crazy no-hands catapult over the top rope. When the ladder comes into play it's mainly just a prop that Dustin uses to enhance his attack on Michaels' back and he finds smart ways to use it that aren't all that dangerous but look really good.

 

The teases of the finishers are fun for the time. One transition where Goldust sidesteps a roll up in the corner is actually pretty neat. They do a good job at cutting off comebacks and timing everything well. I wish Shawn didn't do this floatover out of a move (twice Curtain call, once slam, once suplex) as a reversal. Three times sort of worked and led into the finish. Four times frustrated me. It's a fancam and cuts now and again towards the end but it's minimal and you can generally figure out what little bits you missed with ease (though at one point Shawn gets his foot stuck in the rope and I kind of wish what happened immediately thereafter had been retained).

 

All in all, a really fun ladder match.

[Al]

I should watch the second Shawn/Razor ladder match again. At the time, I really soured on it because the build-up was so terrible. Essentially, it was "here's a rematch out of nowhere since the card is so terrible." No heat at all going in.

[NintendoLogic]

Having watched Blood on the Sand, I'd put it above the Rockers match from the 91 Rumble.

[Dylan Waco]

Blood On The Sand would for sure be my top Michaels match. My top Michaels singles match is much tougher. My favorite is probably the match with Jarrett but I always thought that was Jarrett calling a TN style match in TN and Shawn following along with the athletic spots. I love Mindgames, but that fucking finish. Maybe the WM X Ladder Match?

[Coffey]

I have been working on a list for about a week now. So far, Shawn Michaels is still on it. There's a lot of guys that are on the fence for me. As in, when comparing against Shawn, I can't really decide between one or the other. Kurt Angle, as an example, fits into this criteria.

 

The top of the list is easy & Shawn isn't there. But when you hit the 30's or so...it becomes a game of "well, was he better than Shawn though?" and it's just really hard for me.

 

I guess I just haven't seen as much wrestling as a lot of the other people here, but to me, right now, yes, Shawn Michaels is in my top 100.

 

A big problem for me is that I've pretty much seen Shawn's entire career and when the majority of your career in in WWF, it's not going to be the same as those that are more worldly. Also, as was mentioned on the first page, are we taking everything into account as it pertains to the big picture, or just as it pertains to ring work? Because if it's everything that hinders a lot of foreign wrestlers to me because I can understand all of Shawn's promos but I don't speak Japanese. But I would definitely rate quite a few Japanese wrestlers as better in-ring workers than Shawn.

 

Here's some of the (most basic) questions that I still have to answer for myself:

 

 

Is King Kong Bundy better than Shawn Michaels? Why or why not?

Is The One Man Gang better than Shawn Michaels? Why or why not?

Is Adrian Adonis better than Shawn Michaels? Why or why not?

Is Bam Bam Bigelow better than Shawn Michaels? Why or why not?

 

There are also quite a few guys that, thus far, have been pretty universally regarded as better than Shawn, such as Vader, but I'm not seeing it. And I've seen a lot of Big Van Vader from WCW, WWF & Japan. Same with Steve Austin.

 

Which then makes me answer all the above questions again but with Vader in place of HBK...

 

Favoritism definitely plays a part. Maybe Shawn is better than all of them. Maybe Shawn is second to Vader but better than the others. I'm not sure.

 

Here is a list of guys that I definitely have above Shawn Michaels:

• André the Giant
• Jumbo Tsuruta
• Randy Savage
• Stan Hansen
• Steve Williams
• Mitsuharu Misawa
• Toshiaki Kawada
• Kenta Kobashi
• Jushin Liger
• The Great Muta
• Ric Flair
• Terry Funk
• Curt Hennig
• Rick Rude
• Ted DiBiase
• Rick Martel
• Ricky Steamboat
• Ricky Morton
• Bobby Eaton
• Jerry Lawler
• Eddie Guerrero
• Rey Mysterio Jr.
• Bret Hart
• Tito Santana

A few names I would like to talk about: Butch Reed, Bad News Brown, Jake Roberts, Marty Jannetty, Jim Duggan, Dynamite Kid, Owen Hart & Dean Malenko.

[Dylan Waco]

I would be interested in the case for Mutoh over Shawn.

 

I think Bad News Brown is kinda shitty.

 

Marty I think was right there was Shawn and was a hell of a singles wrestler when put in the right position. But he was a drug addict who fucked up his own shit.

 

Duggan's peak might have been better than Shawn's, but it was short.

 

I could see an argument either way on DK, though I would lean toward Shawn.

 

I will reserve judgment on Malenko til I see his supposedly strong WCW B show runs. For now I would argue in favor of Shawn as I don't think Malenko's cruiserweight ace stuff holds up very well.

 

Reed, Jake, Owen I would rate ahead of Shawn.

 

I'll go into details on some of this later if people actually care.

[Matt D]

I think DK vs Shawn is actually pretty interesting. I actually feel like Shawn is a better tag worker for a completely backwards reason. DK was REALLY good at getting as much offense in a match as he wanted, whether it was to the detriment or benefit of the match. Shawn before his singles run, was not. He couldn't bully people and tended to back down and I think that made his tag matches actually much better, as they weren't so littered with Heel In Peril BS.

[Mad Dog]

I always kind of thought Marty Jannetty was the superior piece of the Rockers team but was his own worst enemy.

[Ricky Jackson]

I watched two of the Shawn vs Marty matches from 1993 Raw last night (5/17 and 7/19*), and maybe it's because I'm now consciously looking for flaws in Shawn's work due to this damn thread , but Marty sure came off as the more dynamic and technically competent of the two. This was during Shawn's bloated, sluggish-looking phase though.

 

*BTW, which of these matches was PWI match of the year? Most places say 5/17 (Marty wins IC strap), but Cawthon's site says 7/19. It's been bugging the shit out of me that I can't find a definitive answer (I threw out my 1993 PWI awards issue years ago).

[Exposer]

I recall it being the 5/17 match where Marty wins the title. Although, I think I have seen the 7/19 match as the winner elsewhere.

[goodhelmet]

OK, I am going to try and list highlights (and lowlights) from each of the periods I listed above when I get a chance.

 

Lets start off with the Rockers...

 

AWA

- One of the best teams in the world right on par with the Rock N Roll Express and Fantastics with footage we have from the time period. I am specifically comparing them to face teams and they are better than any of the WWF face teams from the mid 80s even though I am a fan of the British Bulldogs. So, from 1986-1987, I have the Rockers as one of top acts in wrestling to watch. The AWA set will illustrate this better. As for Shawn as an individual, not much to go by but when watching the Rockers matches, I never got the feeling either Rocker was superior to the other. sometimes Marty was shining or bleeding and sometimes it was Shawn. It also wasn't a case of Rose and Somers just carrying a couple of greenhorns.

 

WWF

- I was not a fan when they initially showed up 20+ years ago. Now, everytime I watch a match, I end up walking away impressed. Much better than any other WWF team of the period. Demolition sucked. The Twin Towers had their moments but I think their best match was against the Rockers.Never seen anything special in the Neidhart-Hart tag. The Brainbusters were great but I still focus on their Crockett material and not their WWF run. That will change when we work on WWF 80s set Take 2.

 

On tag work alone, Shawn has an impressive number of matches that he was part of that all work in his favor. If you make a case against Shawn using this time period, I would love to hear it.

[Matt D]

You never made a compelling argument about how Demolition sucked except for preconceived notions you never had any desire to revisit (which is strange for someone who posts so much here), not liking them when you were younger since they weren't the Road Warriors, and a lack of Movez. Even if you don't like their style, I can't see how you can completely ignore the arguments of the things they do well in every single match that they're in.

 

But that's ok. We're not talking about them.

 

I think Shawn was pretty well led in his tag team days. But I'm not going to put him being a face against him. I meant what I said about him vs DK. His matches were hugely helped by the fact he was something of a wuss who couldn't push people around like he later would be able to (see vs Vader). The fact that he still resented, fifteen years later, the amount of offense Demolition gave them (When it was in fact the perfect amount, strikingly so) shows a pretty big lack of understanding of what the hell he was doing out there and why.

 

But I give some credit to Warrior for being so well-led so I'm not going to keep it from Michaels here, even if I feel it's really despite himself. Basically, as a WWF tag worker, he's not a smart worker, just a hard worker who can't get his way. I can't imagine his AWA run is any different, but I'm looking forward to seeing it. I imagine being younger/less established and in there against some canny, canny vets, he had even LESS influence, and Dylan, for one, considers that his very best work. So we're saying that his best work came at a time where he basically had the least amount of influence in the matches.

 

Which is not the exactly mark of a top 25 great worker in my mind whether he has the matches or not.