Would Shawn Michaels Make Your Personal Top 100?

[MJH]

Short Answer: Probably 'yes', but in the lower regions, if only because, given how long he was in WWF/E, given how visible he was, and how many of his matches I've seen (and for the most part been entertained by) over the years when compared to most other guys, his name would come to my mind quicker than most '75-100' people, and unless I was trying to make a point (see '100/200/x wrestlers better than Shawn Michaels') I don't really care too much about placement and being too specific and accurate at that end.

 

The problem with Shawn is the marketting. He was never the best worker in the WWF/E, though always up there for the most part, but because he could deliver the big melodramatic shit that's their bread and butter, and to a degree because they had him there from so young and could mince his growth, he was 'the guy'. And, to be fair, he has a lot of strengths, to go back to the question earlier in the thread: he's the best working 'face-in-peril' the company ever had, he moved around the ring as well as anyone, his bump-feed was as good as anyone anywhere (he might have the best/quickest straight flat-back-bump ever), he could stooge great (albeit knowlingly, but then so much of the company is to that sense) and make guys look great, he had good charisma, and he was a strong 'performer' (in the WWF/E sense) and seemed a guy naturally suited to the big arena/stadiums rather than smaller venues (perfect for WWE), and was always very visual/etc.

 

Of course, he has plenty of weaknesses, too, some of which he himself admits (I've heard a few interviews where he admits to never being a good offensive wrestler and always being more comfortable underneath). The whole nip-up thing I find overplayed, I mean the 'SuperHuman Babyface' is a staple, y'know? I mean, sure, I much prefer the prolonged Misawa comeback, and am awed no-one has really copied it, but it's no different to the Hulk Up or whatever, and it's hardly like he'd take the top-heels finish and nip straight up (see Savage's Elbow). The reality is that the nip-up, and the Hulk Up, work in that setting. I hate the 'tune up' for Sweet Chin Music, not to mention how so many faces do a clap-along set-up for finishes now, but that, too, works in the WWE setting. And, for the record, he would sell the damage after doing the nip-up, albeit only when the previous damage/injury was to factor into the finish (smart guy ).

 

But, yeah, I probably have Shawn in the Top 100...

[Jingus]

The whole nip-up thing I find overplayed, I mean the 'SuperHuman Babyface' is a staple, y'know? I mean, sure, I much prefer the prolonged Misawa comeback, and am awed no-one has really copied it, but it's no different to the Hulk Up or whatever, and it's hardly like he'd take the top-heels finish and nip straight up (see Savage's Elbow). The reality is that the nip-up, and the Hulk Up, work in that setting. I hate the 'tune up' for Sweet Chin Music, not to mention how so many faces do a clap-along set-up for finishes now, but that, too, works in the WWE setting. And, for the record, he would sell the damage after doing the nip-up, albeit only when the previous damage/injury was to factor into the finish (smart guy ).

Yeah. I never understood why so many people complained about the nip-up, but then were dead silent about Hogan's hulk-up or Undertaker/Kane's sit-up or a thousand other similar superman comebacks. Of all the weaknesses to bitch about, that one's the strangest, yet I hear it all the time.

[Dylan Waco]

I never gave a shit about what happened in a Pillman match. There's lots of matches Michaels was in where I cared. Shouldn't that aspect count in a discussion like this?

 

I think that depends on the person. To me I would say yes it does matter but not THAT much. And if it was a major factor Shawn drops out of the top 300 for me, because I care about him far less than I do someone like Chris Colt or Bobby Bass

[Dylan Waco]

Which Mascarita Sagrada are we talking about? The original? Tzuki? Mascarita Dorada? I don't think I would put either ahead of Shawn. Same goes for Sangre Chicana and Jerry Estrada too. Sangre is still wresting which hurts his legacy and Estrada, while I like him more than Othani's Jacket, A lot of his stuff hasn't held up. LA Park is a good comedy wrestler and I liked his after WCW run but what are some of the must see matches he's had that are better than Shawn's top tier? I'm interested in if you would put guys like Virus, PG13 or Buddy Landell over Shawn?

I think Estrada is sort of the Lucha version of Michaels, at least based on what I've seen. Though I think Estrada's highs are higher than Shawn's. I think Park v. Mesies I is better than any Shawn match I've ever seen and I like a ton of his post-WCW stuff. When he's off he is BAD, but there is hardly any wrestler alive I'd rather watch less when he's off than Shawn.

 

I already mentioned that I would personally rate Jamie and Budro over Shawn, though with some mild reservations on both.

 

I think Virus smokes Shawn and can't believe I forgot him

[Jingus]

I think Park v. Mesies I is better than any Shawn match I've ever seen

Wow, when I first read that, for a second there I got confused and thought you meant the Judas Mesias vs Abyss matches in TNA. That is not even remotely the same thing.

[Dylan Waco]

More than anything, though, I think your rating of Shawn depends on highly you regard his 1994-1997 period. I regard it very highly and consider his 1996 in particular an annus mirabilis. But if you think that Shawn's 1996 wasn't even as good as Rick Rude's 1992 (not a knock on Rude, that was a great run too), you'll rate him significantly lower.

I agree with this, but I am curious as to what Shawn fan's see in his 96 that I don't see? What do they see from the period in question that I don't? This isn't an argument meant to be divisive or nasty either - I like most of Shawn's major stuff from that period too. I just don't think it's be all and end all level stuff.

 

I would be interested to see someone who sees Michaels as a top tier wrestler run through that period relative to top period of someone like a Curt Hennig or a Rick Martel or a Ron Garvin. All of those are guys who are well liked and seen as quality workers, but for many the idea that they are on Shawn's level would be silly and I think that is largely because of how strongly some people feel about the 94-97 window.

[Ricky Jackson]

The fact that Shawn was the one who got the serious main event push by Vince probably automatically puts him ahead of guys like Hennig, Martel, Garvin and several others in the eyes of many fans. The WWE has also created quite a myth around Shawn with "Mr. Wrestlemania" and all the nicknames, the Mania X ladder match, the first HIAC, 20 + years of service, etc. And while I have nothing to back this up, I think a lot of the "Shawn is #1" talk is a generational thing. Of the wrestling fans I know under 30, and who didn't start watching until well into the 90s, often anything pre-94 or so is considered the dark ages and unwatchable. A lot of them see Hogan as the antithesis of everything they like about wrestling (can't do moovz and was responsible for holding back guys like Benoit and Jericho in WCW), can't get into Flair or Lawler or even conceive that either was ever a great worker (especially Lawler), in fact, most of the guys we constantly praise on this board mean nothing to them. Shawn usually rates pretty high with these guys, although a lot of fans in Canada to this day still hate him solely for his role in the screwjob.

[Dylan Waco]

I think to a large extent you are right Ricky, but I'd rather not assume that the people who like Shawn here are victims of marketing. I assume they like him for a reason and I assume those years are a huge factor in how they rate him. I would seriously like to see someone who has a more positive few of those years than I do comp that to Hennig's best stuff for example though that might be something to do after the AWA Set is in circulation

[JerryvonKramer]

Ricky has basically described the atittude that really irritates me too. Especially this bit:

 

The WWE has also created quite a myth around Shawn with "Mr. Wrestlemania" and all the nicknames, the Mania X ladder match, the first HIAC, 20 + years of service, etc. And while I have nothing to back this up, I think a lot of the "Shawn is #1" talk is a generational thing. Of the wrestling fans I know under 30, and who didn't start watching until well into the 90s, often anything pre-94 or so is considered the dark ages and unwatchable. A lot of them see Hogan as the antithesis of everything they like about wrestling (can't do moovz and was responsible for holding back guys like Benoit and Jericho in WCW), can't get into Flair or Lawler or even conceive that either was ever a great worker (especially Lawler), in fact, most of the guys we constantly praise on this board mean nothing to them. Shawn usually rates pretty high with these guys

This is what I was talking about the other day.

 

That particular mindset winds me up. It's almost like there's no reasoning with those guys, like they are too far gone, too brainwashed to ever be educated. But they probably outnumber the sorts of fans on this board by about 20 to 1, if not more.

 

Then when someone else comes along and says "oh it's all subjective, it's all just opinion" afterwards I start to lose my shit. That's probably why this place and DVDR 80s forum are the only places I posts these days.

 

In a way, I can handle someone who is 20 and a Cena mark or a CM Punk mark, I can't handle someone who is maybe 24 and thinks Shawn and to a lesser extent Bret are the be all and end all.

 

--------

 

That said, it's been interesting that the majority here seem to be putting HBK in their top 100s, myself included.

[JerryvonKramer]

As an aside, I wonder if there were guys around in the 80s and early 90s who were saying things like "these kids who think Flair is the be all and end all, brainwashed, he's got nothing on Brisco or Stevens".

 

jdw might be able to tell us.

 

If there was footage available though, I'm sure Brisco against Flair would be a conversation to have. With Shawn there is no conversation to have as far as I'm concerned. He's not in the conversation period. The fact that there are so many people now who see him as de facto #1 pick is the thing that winds me up no end. How did that ever happen?

 

[El-P]

What Ricky states is very true. One canno't underestimate the effect of hearing that Shawn is the greatest wrestler ever in the history of the WWF ad nauseam for the last ten years. Same thing applies to HHH being a great star. Or Kurt Angle being a great worker. It's also notable that Da Metlz and Alvarez went with the flow on that one, Angle and Shawn being great workers. Obviously I'm not saying that all people who think that way are just sheeps, but the influence is there and plays a role to some extent.

 

"You hear bulshit, bullshit and more bullshit all day long you end up buying it."

[Victator]

The fact that Shawn was the one who got the serious main event push by Vince probably automatically puts him ahead of guys like Hennig, Martel, Garvin and several others in the eyes of many fans. The WWE has also created quite a myth around Shawn with "Mr. Wrestlemania" and all the nicknames, the Mania X ladder match, the first HIAC, 20 + years of service, etc. And while I have nothing to back this up, I think a lot of the "Shawn is #1" talk is a generational thing. Of the wrestling fans I know under 30, and who didn't start watching until well into the 90s, often anything pre-94 or so is considered the dark ages and unwatchable. A lot of them see Hogan as the antithesis of everything they like about wrestling (can't do moovz and was responsible for holding back guys like Benoit and Jericho in WCW), can't get into Flair or Lawler or even conceive that either was ever a great worker (especially Lawler), in fact, most of the guys we constantly praise on this board mean nothing to them. Shawn usually rates pretty high with these guys, although a lot of fans in Canada to this day still hate him solely for his role in the screwjob.

I think that push also goes against Shawn too. I can only speak for myself, but I have a hard time judging him fairly because of it. He was shoved down my throat so hard for so long, that my first instinct is to take the piss out of him.

 

It helps that so much of his post come back output is bad to mediocre.

[NintendoLogic]

WWE propaganda hasn't really affected my opinion. In fact, I was pretty strongly anti-Michaels for a long time. It's only within the past year or so that I've really delved into and gained an appreciation for his 90s work. I should note that it was Dylan who turned me on to the greatness of the Rockers.

 

I agree with this, but I am curious as to what Shawn fan's see in his 96 that I don't see? What do they see from the period in question that I don't? This isn't an argument meant to be divisive or nasty either - I like most of Shawn's major stuff from that period too. I just don't think it's be all and end all level stuff.

I don't know what needs to be pointed out. He worked effectively all year against a wide variety of opponents, from Owen to Diesel to Mankind. He even managed to drag a decent match out of Sid. And most of them were straight wrestling matches rather than the gimmick matches he's known for. And to further the Shawn/Rude comparison, he never had a match as bad as Rude/Chono from Halloween Havoc.

 

I would be interested to see someone who sees Michaels as a top tier wrestler run through that period relative to top period of someone like a Curt Hennig or a Rick Martel or a Ron Garvin. All of those are guys who are well liked and seen as quality workers, but for many the idea that they are on Shawn's level would be silly and I think that is largely because of how strongly some people feel about the 94-97 window.

Those guys are all respected, but Shawn was working at a different level. Which goes back to my point about Arn. I think that being a main event anchor is significantly more difficult than being a good hand or a midcard stooge heel or one half of a blowjob tag team. Others may see it differently.

[Jingus]

For those saying he was actively bad post-comeback: why? Aside from inevitably being a step or two slower than he was in his prime, what is dramatically different or worse with Shawn of 02-10 compared to Shawn of 94-97? (Aside from his awful inverted atomic drop, anyway; he could never bend his knees enough to properly do it, and even an HBK mark like me noticed that move always looked like shit.)

[Loss]

For me, his act felt too over the top much of the time. Remember the Randy Orton match where he was supposed to be selling the after-effects of a concussion and the audience just laughed at him? Remember the non-sanctioned Jericho match at Unforgiven where he kept breaking out in tears while avenging Jericho's punch of his wife? Also, "I'm sorry, I love you." It even continued during his referee job in Undertaker/HHH this year, when he was sitting in the corner making really bizarre facial expressions for no real reason. My biggest problem with Shawn is that he was too melodramatic, to a point where it seemed laughable and phony, and I'm a guy who loves my wrestling melodrama. But I like the melodrama to be grounded in the wrestling itself, and not conversations (the Angle trash talking at WM leading to the superkick is another moment that falls into that category). Add to that his tendency to work overly light (aside from the kick, what else did Shawn do that seemed painful?) and there you go.

[NintendoLogic]

But I like the melodrama to be grounded in the wrestling itself, and not conversations (the Angle trash talking at WM leading to the superkick is another moment that falls into that category).

In fairness, I recall this being a fairly common transition during that time in the WWE. It sucks, but it's not something I'd assign him the lion's share of the blame for.

[Jingus]

The only part of Shawn's melodrama that bugs me is when he does the "man, I'm so exhausted" overselling too early in the match. Aside from that, none of his acting or facials ever bothered me. Maybe too many years at indy shows and working in student theater just ruined me when it comes to what I expect from an actor; as long as someone isn't Kristen-Stewart-in-Twilight horrifyingly bad, I typically don't mind. (Plus: I've got aspergers, and my ability to read emotions on a person's face is somewhat below average, which probably makes a big difference.) I actually liked the "I love you" line, found it to be fairly powerful in context while watching the match live. So clearly we're talking about rather massive differences in personal taste.

 

As to him working light: I've seen tons of guys work lighter. Giant Baba, half the old WWWF roster, various others. Shawn's moves are fast and crisp enough (whenever he's not being slowed by having to bend his gimpy knees past a 45 degree angle, anyway), and that's really all I need in order to maintain a suspension of disbelief.

[JerryvonKramer]

What Ricky states is very true. One canno't underestimate the effect of hearing that Shawn is the greatest wrestler ever in the history of the WWF ad nauseam for the last ten years. Same thing applies to HHH being a great star. Or Kurt Angle being a great worker. It's also notable that Da Metlz and Alvarez went with the flow on that one, Angle and Shawn being great workers. Obviously I'm not saying that all people who think that way are just sheeps, but the influence is there and plays a role to some extent.

 

"You hear bulshit, bullshit and more bullshit all day long you end up buying it."

The weirdest thing for me is that there seems like an entire generation of fans now who think they are "smart" but are in fact just massive marks. It's like the WWE at one point decided they weren't going to bother with keeping kayfabe anymore, they were going to try to control the received wisdom. And to an extent they've done it.

 

Don't know how much political theory you guys have read, but it's a brilliant example of power/knowledge and containment.

 

Put out enough DVDs with guys speaking "out of character" or "shooting" and all of a sudden people start believing what they are being told. Amazing in a way how they've done that.

[goodhelmet]

With the AWA set and the Rockers matches, Shawn would probably make my Top 100.

[Ricky Jackson]

I really wasn't trying to suggest that Vince and the modern WWE monolith have the amazing power to brainwash fans, and we at PWO are running some kind of underground resistance effort to save wrestling.

 

But yeah, "youth is wasted on the young". I look back on who I thought were great wrestlers when I was in my early-20s and cringe sometimes. Shawn actually holds up a whole lot better than most (*cough* RVD *cough*).

 

And I liked "I'm sorry, I love you".

[Dylan Waco]

WWE propaganda hasn't really affected my opinion. In fact, I was pretty strongly anti-Michaels for a long time. It's only within the past year or so that I've really delved into and gained an appreciation for his 90s work. I should note that it was Dylan who turned me on to the greatness of the Rockers.

 

I agree with this, but I am curious as to what Shawn fan's see in his 96 that I don't see? What do they see from the period in question that I don't? This isn't an argument meant to be divisive or nasty either - I like most of Shawn's major stuff from that period too. I just don't think it's be all and end all level stuff.

I don't know what needs to be pointed out. He worked effectively all year against a wide variety of opponents, from Owen to Diesel to Mankind. He even managed to drag a decent match out of Sid. And most of them were straight wrestling matches rather than the gimmick matches he's known for. And to further the Shawn/Rude comparison, he never had a match as bad as Rude/Chono from Halloween Havoc.

 

I would be interested to see someone who sees Michaels as a top tier wrestler run through that period relative to top period of someone like a Curt Hennig or a Rick Martel or a Ron Garvin. All of those are guys who are well liked and seen as quality workers, but for many the idea that they are on Shawn's level would be silly and I think that is largely because of how strongly some people feel about the 94-97 window.

Those guys are all respected, but Shawn was working at a different level. Which goes back to my point about Arn. I think that being a main event anchor is significantly more difficult than being a good hand or a midcard stooge heel or one half of a blowjob tag team. Others may see it differently.

 

Garvin, Martel and Hennig were all working main events during their individual peaks and Martel and Hennig were similarly positioned

[Dylan Waco]

For those saying he was actively bad post-comeback: why? Aside from inevitably being a step or two slower than he was in his prime, what is dramatically different or worse with Shawn of 02-10 compared to Shawn of 94-97? (Aside from his awful inverted atomic drop, anyway; he could never bend his knees enough to properly do it, and even an HBK mark like me noticed that move always looked like shit.)

Athleticism and speed were obviously less impressive and those were two things that Shawn had in droves before. He was never a good offensive wrestler, but some of his post-comeback work included some really bad execution. Lot of bad/weak brawling. Bumping was less intense for obvious reasons, but Shawn's selling was always spotty and without the consistent big bumps this was easier to spot. I could go on, but I'll stop there for now.

[NintendoLogic]

Garvin, Martel and Hennig were all working main events during their individual peaks and Martel and Hennig were similarly positioned

I don't want to go too far afield with a debate over how big-time the AWA was, so for the sake of discussion, I'd like to hear the case for Garvin/Martel/Hennig. Did they work well with as wide a variety of opponents as Shawn did? Did they ever elevate an opponent of significantly lesser ability like Shawn did with Diesel and Sid?

 

As for post-comeback Shawn, it wasn't like he was dragging down Eddy Guerrero every week. A lot of his work was against guys like HHH and Kurt Angle. In fact, if you watch the HBK/Angle WM21 match, it's rather striking how Shawn tries to reel the match in while Kurt is his usual self-indulgent self. When he had a game opponent, he generally delivered. He had good matches with Cena in 2007 and a broken down Undertaker in 2009 and 2010.

[Dylan Waco]

When did Shawn elevate Nash or Sid? Sid was over LONG before that and Nash got over as Michaels second, not due to working with him or at least that was never the impression I got watching at the time. Or did you mean elevated as workers? Because while I can see a case that Nash worked better with Shawn I think that was more of a friends working hard with each other thing. And I don't see that at all with Sid.

 

The nature of how big-time the AWA was at the time isn't really relevant and if that is somehow a standard at play we need to start seriously considering what that means for Shawn's work as one of the worst drawing aces in the history of a massive company that is the most successful and durable in the history of the business. In some respects Martel was actually a better ace of the AWA than Shawn even from a business perspective, though both guys were burdened to a large degree by win they came to that spot.

 

During Martel's peak he was working everyone from Flair to Bock to Jimmy Garvin to Jumbo to Gordy to Brad Rheingans to Boris Zhukov. Very broad section of guys. Honestly Michaels is a pinball worker and was sort of made to work guys like Sid/Nash. Martel getting a compelling match out of Boris (actually multiple ones) is at least as impressive to me if not moreso. Of course he didn't have the international platform or the ppv crowds but that is a marketing deal and nothing else.

 

Hennig's peak is really pretty incredible and I don't just mean the Bock matches. Hennig was great as both a face and a heel, could work short underdog babyface sprint brawls with Stan Hansen, wild sprints as a heel champ v. Greg Gagne, lengthy classics as babyface challenger v. Bock, lengthy classics as heel champ v. Wahoo or Lawler, or heel champ v. upstart challenger v. guys like Mitch Snow or DJ Peterson. And he was a great tag worker. Where Shawn was strong he was strong - speed, bumping, athleticism. But he was also strong where Shawn was weak - traditional match structure, working holds/counters, stiffness/strikes, long term selling. The AWA was obviously depleted in influence and strength by the time he got his break but I don't see how that matters

[NintendoLogic]

When did Shawn elevate Nash or Sid? Sid was over LONG before that and Nash got over as Michaels second, not due to working with him or at least that was never the impression I got watching at the time. Or did you mean elevated as workers? Because while I can see a case that Nash worked better with Shawn I think that was more of a friends working hard with each other thing. And I don't see that at all with Sid.

I meant in the sense of carrying them to something way better than what they would produce of their own volition. It's true that Nash worked harder with his Kliq buddies, but it's not like his contributions to the GBFE match are all that earth-shattering. I wouldn't call the Sid match at Survivor Series great by any means, but I can't imagine a better Sid match, especially a 20+ minute one.

 

The nature of how big-time the AWA was at the time isn't really relevant and if that is somehow a standard at play we need to start seriously considering what that means for Shawn's work as one of the worst drawing aces in the history of a massive company that is the most successful and durable in the history of the business. In some respects Martel was actually a better ace of the AWA than Shawn even from a business perspective, though both guys were burdened to a large degree by win they came to that spot.

The demands on a top guy in a national promotion with a PPV-based business model are totally different than for a top guy in a territorial promotion with a house show-based business model. I'm more impressed by being able to do a dozen or so high-profile matches that are intended to be attractions in and of themselves along with a few high-end TV matches than a bunch of matches that are designed to get audiences to buy tickets the next time the promotion comes to town with the occasional blowoff.

 

During Martel's peak he was working everyone from Flair to Bock to Jimmy Garvin to Jumbo to Gordy to Brad Rheingans to Boris Zhukov. Very broad section of guys. Honestly Michaels is a pinball worker and was sort of made to work guys like Sid/Nash. Martel getting a compelling match out of Boris (actually multiple ones) is at least as impressive to me if not moreso. Of course he didn't have the international platform or the ppv crowds but that is a marketing deal and nothing else.

The only Martel/Zhukov match on the AWA set is the cage match, which was like 12 minutes and had the advantages of a gimmick and blood. It's true that Shawn's style is largely conducive toward pinballing around for big guys. But he also worked really well with guys like Owen Hart and Jeff Jarrett, who don't fit that description at all.

 

Hennig's peak is really pretty incredible and I don't just mean the Bock matches. Hennig was great as both a face and a heel, could work short underdog babyface sprint brawls with Stan Hansen, wild sprints as a heel champ v. Greg Gagne, lengthy classics as babyface challenger v. Bock, lengthy classics as heel champ v. Wahoo or Lawler, or heel champ v. upstart challenger v. guys like Mitch Snow or DJ Peterson. And he was a great tag worker. Where Shawn was strong he was strong - speed, bumping, athleticism. But he was also strong where Shawn was weak - traditional match structure, working holds/counters, stiffness/strikes, long term selling. The AWA was obviously depleted in influence and strength by the time he got his break but I don't see how that matters

My tastes tend toward the semi-epic, so I'm not nearly as impressed by sprints. I'm also not a huge fan of the touring heel champ shtick. I think it's pretty telling that when Hennig came to the WWF, he had few great matches, almost all of which were with Bret Hart. Even if I were to accept for the sake of argument that Martel and Hennig's title runs were better than Shawn's 1996 run, Shawn still has two decades' worth of quality output. Hell, there are 11 Rockers matches on the AWA set.