[1991-08-09-CMLL] Atlantis vs Blue Panther

[Loss]

Talk about it here.

[Loss]

It's possible that El Dandy in 1990 has completely spoiled me, but this match really left me disappointed. That's strange, because going into this yearbook, I expected this match to end up my MOTY based on it being a title match, its rep and the type of wrestling I like. After watching it, it's not. It is a great match. But I don't think it compares to Dandy against Azteca, Casas, Llanes or Black Warrior, or even Atlantis/Emilio just a year later. The matwork looked great, and I think the match was really well laid out, especially in the finishes to each fall. I loved how the holds became increasingly desperate as the match progressed, and they did a ton of false finishes, which were all excellent. But something was missing for me on this one. I think it was lacking the emotional hook or violent undercurrent of some of the Dandy mat classics. Maybe it's not fair to hold everything to that standard, but I can't help but compare title match lucha to those matches now.

[Childs]

The best thing about this was the build from the prettier, more fluid matwork of the first fall, to the violent, desperate action of the third. I agree that it's no Dandy-Azteca, but that's a terribly difficult standard. Except for Atlantis half-botching his dive, the third fall was pretty stirring. I loved that instead of sitting in the ring after he hit his dive, Panther went to the apron to ram his shoulder into Atlantis' back. The Gory Special that followed made for a great nearfall. And then the execution of the actual finish was beautiful. Probably my lucha MOTY to this point, ahead of Santito vs.Brazo de Oro.

[Zenjo]

Fought in the traditional title match style and rule abiding throughout. Some nice matwork and flying, although they didn't hit everything perfectly. I felt like this could've gone higher on another day but didn't quite click. Still it was consistently good quality and peaked at the end.

[PeteF3]

Oh, good, it wasn't just me. "Good but not MOTYC" is exactly how I felt watching it, and that's not a fair standard to judge it a disappointment as a result, but knowing that this was a title match and the rep of both guys, somehow I expected more than just a really good match. The finishes to the first two falls may not have even been there, as they come off as rushed and perfunctory--"let's get this shit to the third fall." On Classics there's a thread detailing how a lot of older vets didn't like 2/3 fall matches--all-time greats who worked a lot of them, too, like Jack Brisco and Buddy Rose. There have been lots of fantastic matches of that type but I think you can see the downsides of the stip here. They ran through a lot of offense with a ton of near-falls at the end, and there were some great struggles like Atlantis getting out of Panther's backbreaker/surfboard thingy only to nearly get pinned when Panther reverses his reversal. But even then, all the near-falls honestly came off as ROH-style, 2.9 wrestling overkill. I also picked up on the announcers gushing over what a great, important, legendary, epic title match this was like Michael Cole beating us over the head about "WrestleMania Moments," and that didn't help me either. This was really pushed hard by everyone involved as the Lucha Match of the Year which means I have to hold it to higher standards, and it simply wasn't.

[Kevin Ridge]

I too am missing El Dando in this yearbook. Satanico too. The third fall is pretty good with all the close pinfall attempts. The action is excellent at this point. I just wasn't into the earlier stuff of the first two falls.

[soup23]

This is my #3 MOTY so far and I loved the progression and beauty of the work this match consisted of. The first fall flowed with respectful matwork that looked like a carryover of the Davis/Dundee work. Second fall was quick but served its purpose. Third fall really ramps up the intensity and desperation with big moves, dives, and chances taking. The ending sequence was beautiful and it felt like a huge win for Atlantis. Not at the absolute high end of a Azteca vs. Dandy but certainly a great, great match in my eyes.

[garretta]

I see what Pete meant about the announcers pimping this as more of a match than it was. It was a very good championship-style match, well-worked by both guys. The first and third falls can stand up against most of the good action from this year, but even in a style where second falls mean little most of the time except as excuses to make matches even and bring about the third and deciding fall, the second fall was far, far too short. The tit-for-tat submission wins were an interesting idea, but Panther's victory came too quickly to mean much.

 

The buildup from mostly matwork in the first fall to almost all high-flying in the third was interesting to watch, as was the behavior of the seconds. There wasn't even a hint of interference from either Dandy or Pierroth Jr., and it shoes how thoroughly I buy the American style that I keep expecting interference from seconds even though I know it doesn't work that way in Mexico (or Japan either, for that matter.)

 

Interesting that the seconds got more interview time than the wrestlers afterward, although that could have been because the wrestlers were still winded. I would have given anything for a translation, because it seemed that Pierroth Jr. in particular was quite disturbed by something.

 

The training montage at the start was a nice idea for those viewers who wanted to know what it's like to train for a championship bout. I'm pretty sure most of the footage was of Atlantis and the technicos, but I thought I saw a shot or two of Panther mixed in.

[JKWebb]

http://placetobenation.com/countdown-top-500-matches-of-the-90s-150-101/2/

 

#102

 

The first fall had incredible matwork and escalated to the exciting third fall that had big moves and dramatic sequences. I thought the powerbombs looked really impactful and the ending came across as something special. ****1/4 ish for me ... really the only negative I had after watching this a second time (in July, 2017) was the transition in the quick second fall... great match!

[dawho5]

Second fall was way too fast. I'd put this at really good, not great. But that isn't to say I'd never watch it again either. Atlantis almost catching on the ringpost for his dive was a little scary.

[Tetsujin]

Really good lucha championship match but with no ambition to make something different, epic. They weren't lazy, don't get me wrong, just... conformists. Superb matwork in the primera caída and great nearfalls in the tercera, but nothing more. 0 character work, 0 innovation, just another day in the office for these two guys. ****.

[cad]

I feel like even people who see Blue Panther as a well rounded worker would say that he's at his best in title matches. I'd say that too, but there's always such a duality to his work and it's all on display here. The technical work is brilliant, so much that it becomes apparent early on that this match isn't just for the middleweight title but for the title of best technical wrestler in the company. They manage to get an Arena Mexico crowd excited over small victories, like the test of strength early on or some of the fights over leg holds, so they know a lot more than just how to apply the moves. It's extremely competitive all the way though.

Yet for all Panther's skill, I've never thought much of his storytelling within the title match conventions. I thought they were going somewhere when Atlantis was pressing his advantage after winning the first fall, but instead of pulling off some genius reversal Panther just kicked out of a cover, whipped Atlantis into the ropes, caught him with a clothesline, and from there went on to even the score. I'm not of the belief that whoever is in control needs to stay in control until they counter or their opponent misses a move, but this was a flat way to tie it up and left me thinking that maybe those knees to the temple weren't as painful as Panther's spasms made them out to be. And for all the thought they put into the battles over individual holds, they didn't really worry about how to get to some of the other crowd popping spots. Panther at one point drops Atlantis, walks more than halfway across the ring and climbs the ropes with his ass sticking out for his famous Blue Panther Moonsault, which unsurprisingly gets him knocked to the outside. There's another time when he plops down on the top turnbuckle and has a rest, while Atlantis strolls over and superplexes him.

So continuing the half and half theme, I agree with the consensus here that this isn't an alltime great match, even within the championship style. It's more like Angle vs. Benoit, skillful, action packed and competitive but without a real reason for the swings in momentum. And that can be enough. This time I came away thinking it was a great match that I'd probably underrated in my head for a bit there. It had a real big fight atmosphere and lived up to it, not an easy thing to do.

[ohtani's jacket]

This is such a beautiful lucha libre match. The argument that it needs character work or escalation makes me wonder if people can appreciate beauty for beauty’s sake. It’s a silly argument as well because you have two characters and there’s clear escalators because it’s a two out of three falls match. Why does there have to be “storytelling” within a title match? What does that mean? Would this have been a better match if they had bled and torn each others’ masks? The beauty of this match is that it’s the entire opposite of those lucha tropes. It’s about as pure a lucha match as you can imagine. There’s no need to sully it with storytelling. That’s what happened in AAA and the results weren’t great. 

[cad]

Storytelling within a title match doesn't necessarily mean playing into larger angles surrounding the match like in AAA. It's more like how the match could come off as described in a story for Sports Illustrated or some publication like that. Think of things like momentum swings, or strategy, or interplay between the characters. Surely you don't think that acclaimed classics like Rocca vs Cota, Cochisse vs Satanico, Casas vs Dandy, Santo vs Panther, Virus vs Guerrero Maya reached that status solely because of how technically good the wrestling was. If someone watched any of those matches and all they did was praise the technical work I'd feel like they missed something. If someone watched this match and all they did was praise the technical work I'd understand. The title match style is one that lends itself to displays of beautiful wrestling, and you can have a great one focusing on just that one aspect. There's also a lot more that can be done with the conventions of that style, and if the workers neglect everything else then it's hard to get past that 4.25 star level into bonafide classic territory, at least to me. If I weren't able to appreciate beauty in a match like this, I might not have praised it at all.

There's also some rather obvious slop on display, and it goes beyond nitpicking how well two men can pull off a preplanned spot in a worked sport. Damiancito vs Cicloncito is the same kind of match as this one, and that one is pulled off much more seamlessly despite possibly having a higher degree of difficulty.

[ohtani's jacket]

Panther wasn’t the same type of rudo as Cora, Satanico or Casas. If he’d spent more of his career unmasked, he may have eventually been as good as Bestia Salvaje, though I kind of doubt it as Panther never really struck me as a guy who had much in the way of performing chops. I’m not sure why they made him work rudo so often other than his ability to carry young tecnicos. Perhaps it was his own personal preference. Whatever the case, compare this match to a feud like Panther vs Love Machine, and it’s obvious to me that he doesn’t have the chops for the latter type of feud in the way that a Casas or Fuerza Guerrera would. It’s not the type of Panther match that I want to see. I want to see Panther vs. Atlantis, or Santo, or Charlie Lucero. 

There is room in lucha to have a pure technical bout, especially in a title bout. There’s no law that says to be a great title match you need to have great character work and a ton of drama in the tercera. Those things are nice, but there’s also skill-based lucha where there doesn’t need to be huge amounts of drama. I can imagine Solar vs Atlantis being worked along these lines whereas Solar vs Pirate Morgan or Satanico would be an entirely different bout. The latter type of bout leans more heavily towards the apuestas bouts that some people prefer to lucha title matches. I get that, but I hope more people will grow to appreciate the beauty of this match. The ‘97 match is a wonderful contrast as its much grittier and shows how much lucha has changed in the preceding six years. I love both matches as a set and would take them over pretty much any other lucha if Noah built an ark and we were only allowed to save two lucha matches. Either that or the famous minis title match and trios bout. 

[cad]

2 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

There is room in lucha to have a pure technical bout, especially in a title bout. There’s no law that says to be a great title match you need to have great character work and a ton of drama in the tercera. Those things are nice, but there’s also skill-based lucha where there doesn’t need to be huge amounts of drama. I can imagine Solar vs Atlantis being worked along these lines whereas Solar vs Pirate Morgan or Satanico would be an entirely different bout. The latter type of bout leans more heavily towards the apuestas bouts that some people prefer to lucha title matches.

I don't see it as an either-or thing. To me a classic, alltime great championship match combines the two, with enough skillful wrestling that it seems like it's the two most talented wrestlers alive right there in the same ring, and then backs it up with riveting drama to produce a contest that feeks like the most important thing in the world while it's happening. By drama I don't mean blood, visuals, or other apuestas staples, but excitement and the sense that the match has come a long, long way from where it started, and that the wrestlers' positions vis-a-vis each other have changed over the course of the match.

Mocho Cota is a memorable character, but when I think of his matches with Rocca I think of his dogged onslaughts to tie the score more than facial expressions or poses to the crowd. The April 2000 Panther vs Santo has a great image of Santo, his arm badly hurt, put in the unfamiliar position of having to back off from an unusually aggressive Panther. Virus vs Guerrero Maya had GM turn the match on its head and make Virus the underdog when he started blowing him away with big offense in the third fall. Those matches all had brilliant technical performances as well but managed to feel like there had been a major shift over the course of the action. The most you could say about this one is that the moves got bigger as the match got longer. And if a match trades on skill and execution, it really hurts to have a spot set up this shoddily. I can forgive a blown or poorly executed spot, but it's harder to do in a match whose selling point is aesthetics.

[ohtani's jacket]

The thing is, I'm not sure why you'd expect Panther and Atlantis to work like that. Maybe Panther could have worked more like an aggressive rudo technician and forced Atlantis to more. Atlantis definitely wasn't going to be the aggressor, not in a match that had barely any set up. I feel like you're penalizing both workers for things that really aren't their strong suit. I would understand the complaints if this was an exhibition style match, but it's not. There's clear progression. You don't get the great selling or the great details of other lucha title matches, but for context, how many of those matches are worked between two masked workers and what are the better title matches from this era between two masked workers? Does Panther have a better title match than from the same time period? How about Atlantis? I don't know if I believe in a common standard for title matches. Shouldn't title matches between two rudos or tecnicos be different from tecnico vs. rudo title matches? Aren't there cases where you have a rudo-led title match, a tecnico-driven title match, a brawling title match, a clean title match, a bullshit-laden title match? There isn't one single way to work a trios match, so I don't see why there would be one ideal way to work a title match. My point really is to take Panther vs Atlantis on its own merits. 

[fxnj]

Positives here for me are how they kept a fast pace for the first fall matwork, the handful of fun learned psychology moments, and the way they carefully build to/sold the flat back bumps. Negatives for me are... a lot of other stuff. Coming to this after having seen the 1997 match a few times, I was surprised how the stuff they were doing on the mat lacked the creativity and spontaneity of that match. The grappling was also too loose for my tastes in how easily they let go of holds. The clotheslines here almost resemble a hug more than a move that should down an opponent. The spotty selling and crappy transitions did not help things either. Wasn't feeling the extended nearfall trading in the 3rd fall and I was begging for things to end.