MJH Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I've been avoiding this thread but why not... Hansen, Terry Funk, Eddie, Flair, Bret, Savage, Austin, Rey, Harley... and probably Doc just because I love his '93-'95 run in All Japan as much as I do any run of any other US workers... I'm less well-versed in Memphis so can't speak on Lawler too much. Even less so in Buddy Rose. Tully, Barry, Arn, Morton, Eaton, they're all on the cusp more or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollinger. Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Jerry Lawler Randy Savage Ricky Steamboat Stan Hansen Terry Funk Ric Flair Vader Arn Anderson Bob Backlund Eddy Guerrero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollinger. Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 for shits & gigs I added up guys mentioned so far... 01. Ric Flair (21) 02. Terry Funk (19) 03. Stan Hansen (18) 04. Randy Savage (16) 05. Jerry Lawler/Eddy Guerrero (15) 06. Rey Misterio (14) 07. Ricky Steamboat (10) 08. Vader (9) 09. Buddy Rose/Nick Bockwinkel/Barry Windham (8) 10. Steve Austin (7) 11. Dick Murdoch/Shawn Michaels (6) 12. Arn Anderson/Ricky Morton (5) 13. Tully Blanchard (4) 14. Daniel Bryan/CM Punk/Terry Gordy (3) 15. Bobby Eaton/The Undertaker/Bob Backlund (2) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I guess I can see how he's downgraded for being a prick in the 90's and fuckin over people. He isn't downgraded for being a prick and fucking over people. Lots of guys pimped in this thread were pricks who fucked over people, and it's not held against them. He's downgraded because people feel his great 90's run wasn't as great as some people claim, and that his post-comeback run was downright bad for the most part. So what are we counting as that "90's" run? Barbershop window through Wrestlemania 14(HBK Era)? I guess what could be held against him is the showboating Lucha style or "drama" or whatever. But even if you hate the "Sexy Boy 90's" character, you got to appriciate his top matches from that Era like the 2 ladder bouts with Scott Hall, Jarrett IYH 2, IYH Diesel street fight, IYH v. Foley, KOTR with Bulldog & the British ppv with Bulldog(love this match, Shawn was such a bastard heel. Just always loved Shawn/Davey's chemistry. Power v. Speed) And I would think the consensus on here would be that his 2nd run was better. Seeing as how he wrestled more grounded, smarter matches. Of course you have the 2 Taker matches & the 2 Angle ppv matches, which liked a lot but I can see the flip side of those. But how bout the Orton S-Series match in '07? Best Orton match ever IMO. Plus the Cena Mania bout is the best of Cena's career outside the Punk MITB '11 match IMO. Sure the 2nd run Dx stuff was God-awful, but when it was just veteran Shawn out there it was usually good. Let me first say welcome to the board. Next, I don't think you know this board very well. You forgot to bold the part where he called Shawn's style "showboating lucha style", but yeah. Incidentally, a lot of people here - myself included - do appreciate the top matches from Shawn's 90's run. We just don't think they're enough to make him an all-time great. Anyway, some useful reading material: Would Shawn Michaels Make Your Personal Top 100? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 There should be a FAQ I'd prefer to see a FUC - Frequently Used Concepts Entries include: "Self-conscious epic" (El=P) "Stuff to do" (jdw) and most recently "Meaningless depth" (Dylan) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I'll say this about meaningless depth. You watch enough 84 WWF TV and you come to really appreciate all that meaningless depth in 88. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvd356 Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I guess I can see how he's downgraded for being a prick in the 90's and fuckin over people. He isn't downgraded for being a prick and fucking over people. Lots of guys pimped in this thread were pricks who fucked over people, and it's not held against them. He's downgraded because people feel his great 90's run wasn't as great as some people claim, and that his post-comeback run was downright bad for the most part. So what are we counting as that "90's" run? Barbershop window through Wrestlemania 14(HBK Era)? I guess what could be held against him is the showboating Lucha style or "drama" or whatever. But even if you hate the "Sexy Boy 90's" character, you got to appriciate his top matches from that Era like the 2 ladder bouts with Scott Hall, Jarrett IYH 2, IYH Diesel street fight, IYH v. Foley, KOTR with Bulldog & the British ppv with Bulldog(love this match, Shawn was such a bastard heel. Just always loved Shawn/Davey's chemistry. Power v. Speed) And I would think the consensus on here would be that his 2nd run was better. Seeing as how he wrestled more grounded, smarter matches. Of course you have the 2 Taker matches & the 2 Angle ppv matches, which liked a lot but I can see the flip side of those. But how bout the Orton S-Series match in '07? Best Orton match ever IMO. Plus the Cena Mania bout is the best of Cena's career outside the Punk MITB '11 match IMO. Sure the 2nd run Dx stuff was God-awful, but when it was just veteran Shawn out there it was usually good. Let me first say welcome to the board. Next, I don't think you know this board very well. You forgot to bold the part where he called Shawn's style "showboating lucha style", but yeah. Incidentally, a lot of people here - myself included - do appreciate the top matches from Shawn's 90's run. We just don't think they're enough to make him an all-time great. Anyway, some useful reading material: Would Shawn Michaels Make Your Personal Top 100? What would you call his style back then? That was just what JR said back in '96, didn't know how else to describe it. Maybe its unfair, since Lucha(CMLL, AAA) are fuckin garbage. I watched them on Univision for years in CA. Weak ass armdrags, weak ass strikes, old out of shape "Legends" that make Flair & Mutoh 2013 look good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 What would you call his style back then? That was just what JR said back in '96, didn't know how else to describe it. Maybe its unfair, since Lucha(CMLL, AAA) are fuckin garbage. I watched them on Univision for years in CA. Weak ass armdrags, weak ass strikes, old out of shape "Legends" that make Flair & Mutoh 2013 look good. No, no, no, you're doing it all wrong. What would you call his style back then? That was just what JR said back in '96, didn't know how else to describe it. Maybe its unfair, since Lucha(CMLL, AAA) are fuckin garbage. If the lucha style is garbage, and you identify Shawn's 90's style as lucha style, shouldn't that mean you hate Shawn's 90's work? This is why I always troll by telling the truth. Trolling through lies leaves you open to getting tripped up, especially when you get so overzealous as you did here. I watched them on Univision for years in CA. It was garbage, but you watched it for years? Why? When I think a show is garbage, I usually don't make it until the end of the episode. Also, someone correct if I'm wrong, but did lucha ever air on Univision outside of the short-lived LLL experiment? I thought it was always a Galavision thing. No, you're gonna have to start again. Like, completely from scratch. New username, pretend you've never been here before...the whole nine yards. The art of the troll is a delicate one, indeed. I don't think you have the touch for it, yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 It was garbage, but you watched it for years? Why? When I think a show is garbage, I usually don't make it until the end of the episode. Just to play Devil's Advocate on this point, I think that most wrestling fans go through a phase where they'll watch anything that's wrestling, even if they think it stinks. When I was at the height of my teenage wrestling fandom, I'd watch everything every week even if it sucked. Specifically California Championship Wrestling during the time it was shown in Jersey in the Mid Eighties. And it doesn't have to be just wrestling. My ex-wife and I watched Beverly Hills 90210 until the very end even though every week we'd say, "This is just awful." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 And I thought I was new to this board when I didn't get Matt D's Buddy Rose blow away diet joke. Man, was I wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I'll just note that King Solomon who is from CA has also said he watched Lucha for years and also has the same negative opinion of it. Just saying that from a random sample of 2 people from the same area now, this view seems like it is fairly common, for right or wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I'll just note that King Solomon who is from CA has also said he watched Lucha for years and also has the same negative opinion of it. Just saying that from a random sample of 2 people from the same area now, this view seems like it is fairly common, for right or wrong.Well, two people doesn't a consensus make. And while it may be a coincidence, a guy coming to this board and immediately dissing lucha and it's older guys and praising HBK's later career stuff does smell a little suspicious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I can see that Mr. Sorrow, but I'm just saying it's not wildly outside of the bounds of possibility for a long-time fan to hold both views. I potched around last night listening to a few random wrestling podcasts from outside of this bubble, just to see what sort of stuff is out there. One of them was a "Top 10 guys of the past 40 years" discussion (name escapes me). There was a panel of 4 so, 40 picks in all. I recall Booker T being a number 8 pick. Every single person had HBK top 5. Sting was there. Someone had Inoki at 9. Andre was in there somewhere. Angle made most of the lists. Hennig as Mr. Perfect featured prominently. I stopped listening after a while because it was just too far away from where I am as a fan right now, but the point is that any one of those guys -- all of them seemed like long-time fans -- could stumble onto this place and seem like they were trolling without having a clue as to why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chess Knight Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I'm really surprised anybody could criticize lucha for being old legends and weak ass strikes while praising 2000s Michaels. I don't even think Michaels strikes are as bad as the reputation they have (some places, apparently) , but good GOD can they be bad. I can't help but think his chop would look better if he stopped it at the chest and didn't throw his arm all the way. Not to mention it looks like he's high fiving his opponent's nipple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I would like to remind everyone that mid-90s AAA regularly outdrew Wrestlemania VII in the same Los Angeles venue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I've been thinking for a while about how spending too much time at a board like this can lead to an echo chamber effect where, for example, you can't even imagine how someone could dislike lucha or still think that Bruiser Brody was a great worker. So when someone with the opposite set of views shows up, it completely disrupts the ecosystem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I've been thinking for a while about how spending too much time at a board like this can lead to an echo chamber effect where, for example, you can't even imagine how someone could dislike lucha or still think that Bruiser Brody was a great worker. So when someone with the opposite set of views shows up, it completely disrupts the ecosystem.I get that, and that's why I'm not totally quick to shout "troll" at someone. But I can see where it looks a little questionable. To be honest, I'm not a big Lucha fan (mainly from lack of watching and the language barrier) and I kinda dig Brody, even though I recognize all the criticisms and agree with them. And I enjoyed broken down HBK, as well. Just not enough to argue about it. Back on topic, my top ten is probably 1. Jerry Lawler 2. Ric Flair 3. Dusty Rhodes 4. Randy Savage 5. Barry Windham 6. Sgt. Slaughter 7. Ricky Morton 8. Steve Austin 9. Terry Funk 10. Eddie Guerrero Oh and honorable mention to Don Leo Jonathan. Not that I've ever actually seen him wrestle, but because every Apter mag list of my youth listed him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 I've been thinking for a while about how spending too much time at a board like this can lead to an echo chamber effect where, for example, you can't even imagine how someone could dislike lucha or still think that Bruiser Brody was a great worker. So when someone with the opposite set of views shows up, it completely disrupts the ecosystem. I think this board is fairly diverse actually. There are definitely consensus opinions here and some that are outside the standard. But generally they come from watching footage. Having said that if someone makes a blanket statement about disliking Lucha there is a good chance what they enjoy in wrestling and I enjoy are going to be so incredibly different that I'm not going to be able to bridge the gap on any level. Of course I don't just visit this board either even though I spend most of my time here. On Michaels I was all ready to write an absurdly long comparison post to Carlos Colon, but I don't want to waste it on a thread that is spiraling into troll talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 I know rvd356 was called a troll but I am not ready to automatically brand him so argue and deconstruct his points. I am also going to agree with NintendoLogic, Jerry and Dylan in one sentence and I thought that would be near impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 I was being a prick in my previous statement. I really shouldn't have been. But it is unusual to see someone dislike lucha here. There is a fair number of diversity on this board for sure. It's been proven by arguments between Jerry, Dylan, Loss, and Matt over the last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 There's a lot more than just arguments between us four. El-P can bring it when he wants to and Dylan vs. El-P is a main event anywhere in the country when it happens. OJ is very indepently minded. There are many others too. About as much consensus as the People's Front of Judea. I think it's more a way of looking at wrestling and being more or less completely independent of WWE-hype-machine perpetuated nonsense (HBK as GOAT, HHH as a legend etc.), valuing psychology and actually looking at footage that sets this place apart from many other places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvd356 Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 What would you call his style back then? That was just what JR said back in '96, didn't know how else to describe it. Maybe its unfair, since Lucha(CMLL, AAA) are fuckin garbage. I watched them on Univision for years in CA. Weak ass armdrags, weak ass strikes, old out of shape "Legends" that make Flair & Mutoh 2013 look good. No, no, no, you're doing it all wrong. What would you call his style back then? That was just what JR said back in '96, didn't know how else to describe it. Maybe its unfair, since Lucha(CMLL, AAA) are fuckin garbage. If the lucha style is garbage, and you identify Shawn's 90's style as lucha style, shouldn't that mean you hate Shawn's 90's work? This is why I always troll by telling the truth. Trolling through lies leaves you open to getting tripped up, especially when you get so overzealous as you did here. I watched them on Univision for years in CA. It was garbage, but you watched it for years? Why? When I think a show is garbage, I usually don't make it until the end of the episode. Also, someone correct if I'm wrong, but did lucha ever air on Univision outside of the short-lived LLL experiment? I thought it was always a Galavision thing. No, you're gonna have to start again. Like, completely from scratch. New username, pretend you've never been here before...the whole nine yards. The art of the troll is a delicate one, indeed. I don't think you have the touch for it, yet. 1) no, you're 'trolling' me if anything. I am just talking about wrestling, I don't see the point in pissing off communinities on the net. When I saw this board, l liked its unique opinions and have discovered many wrestlers and matches I love(like Hashimoto/Zangiev, Hash in general or UWFI stuff). I'm willing to give anything a shot. 2) I said Lucha "style" meaning taking good aspects of Lucha and leaving the crap behind. Italking about WCW "Lucha libre": Rey Mysterio Jr., Eddy(saw the Havoc '97 match live, talk about hooked for life), Juvy Guerrera, Psicosis etc. Actually the Trios match from Bash At the Beach '97 was one of my early favorites. But all of the guys in that match had talent. So if those count, I like Lucha. I'm not sure what the station was honestly, Galavision, Telemundo etc...its just not good IMO only. I watched it because it was wrestling, and I watched any kind. I'm not gonna say it was all bad, there were some goodish talents but 80% of it was old "Legends" embarassing themselves with contrived spots. I respect it's different but to me amost all the AAA & CMLL stuff saw was just bad. I even saw an AAA show live and it was the same armdrags and flipfest junk. 3) I would like to get along with everyone here and get/give recomendations. Sorry if I offended Lucha fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 I'm not offended. If you are being serious and I assume you are I just strongly disagree and if shitty/contrived offense is something you really dislike, I"m not sure why Michaels is a favorite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 I'm glad everyone is enjoying the debate. As for me, the seemingly constant piss and vinegar is starting to take its toll. I don't know that it's necessarily because recent times have been more vitriolic than normal. That may not be true. It more of a cumulative effect. This is why I've been fairly quiet since the Bret vs Flair thread. I may just be burned out on going back and forth on every little thing, but it seems like people around here are angrier lately. That's not to say I haven't participated in my fair share of that too. But sometimes, it's exhausting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpchicago23 Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 You don't have to apologize not everybody is going to like the same things. If you don't like lucha then its not for you and it doesnt make you less of a wrestling fan. Your shawn michaels is my Kurt angle although I haven't like most of his stuff past 08 except for the jarrett matches. What I'm getting it is that I see a lot of people don't like himn here and that's cool. While I may not agree with a lot of peoples opinion on stuff I have learned a lot and doi d many great discoveries through some peoples recommendation. I never would've thought if jerry Lawler as highly as I do now if I wasn't turned on to him by will. Just like what you like and if you're open minded you might discover a lot of quality stuff you would of never thought of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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