Bob Backlund

[goodhelmet]

Loved the Khan match and it is easier more watchable and enjoyable than those Muraco tragedies. Near lock to make the next set.

[Timbo Slice]

Well, one of the things I always got from Backlund was that because of his catch/amateur background that he wanted to work more "straight up" matches where selling wasn't as big a part of the match. That "realism" was a part of it and is his biggest drawback. You're not going to see him work from underneath that much against bigger guys.

 

The thing with Angle was that his selling was spastic because he DID work around big spots, where you're supposed to sell them more than your mat work exchanges that were a huge part of Backlund matches. You can't have it both ways, which is something both Backlund and Angle did regularly.

[Johnny Sorrow]

And Harley's piledriver here looks like shit, it's perfectly natural for bob to shake it off grab Harley and spike him with a piledriver of hot death while saying "THAT'S how the Champ in New York does it, motherfucker!"

[shoe]

Matches hit people different ways. Some people think the Harley-Lawler draw is a classic match. I thought too much of it was overly repetitive and dragged. In turn, I've grown to enjoy some of Bob's goofy shit.

 

John

 

On the same show we reviewed Bob/Race I brought up Lawer/Race. Johnny and I love it. I thought Parv would fucking hate it.

[goodhelmet]

Some people think the Harley-Lawler draw is a classic match. I thought too much of it was overly repetitive and dragged.

One day you will see the light.

[jdw]

Some people think the Harley-Lawler draw is a classic match. I thought too much of it was overly repetitive and dragged.

One day you will see the light.

 

I like Lawler, though am hardly as ga-ga over him as others. I like Race. And I always enjoy seeing how people work/fill 60 minutes, much more than most. This wasn't that great.

 

John

[jdw]

Loved the Khan match and it is easier more watchable and enjoyable than those Muraco tragedies. Near lock to make the next set.

It looks like I didn't completely hate this, just really hard the first third:

 

Lack of heel heat kills this. The early Khan in control section seems endless, even though it goes about four and a half minutes of a thirteen and a half minute match. What they do after that is largely good, with Bob throwing more out than normal in terms of moves and pitching his working the holds overboard. It probably would have been better off going with the Face On The Outside stuff at the start, with Khan brawling it up, bouncing Bob off stuff outside and cutting off his attempts to come back in. Bob's comeback once he got back in the ring would have worked, and down the stretch they could have pitched the outside stuff and instead worked tighter Khan having Bob in trouble. There's actually enough here to edit together a decent music video that would make it look like a hell of a match.

http://www.otherarena.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=10329#10329

 

I like all the Muraco matches with the exception of the 1983 blow off in MSG... but that's something we've always disagreed on.

 

John

[jdw]

In this Race match we're talking about, for example, Race has about a minute on offense during which he gives Backlund a piledriver and he shrugs it off as if nothing happened. That's the sort of thing I have a problem with. Backlund's "lemme at 'im" approach to selling works for matwork, I'm not sure it works for taking big bombs.

 

And Harley's piledriver here looks like shit, it's perfectly natural for bob to shake it off grab Harley and spike him with a piledriver of hot death while saying "THAT'S how the Champ in New York does it, motherfucker!"

I love Harley's piledriver here. It's the second pile driver (after a few things by Harley between) that Bob backbody drops in a pure *Harley* spot: he has faces do that to him all the time when going to the pile driver well a second time.

 

It was an awesome Bob Driver, though he sold after it. They actually go back really nicely here, both selling damage, both getting stuff in, the juice and payback juice which is when Bob really starts to go to town.

 

I don't really think Bob shrugged off the pile driver.

 

John

[Johnny Sorrow]

Shrugged off implies him no selling it. Shake off implies him showing showing his toughness.

[jdw]

My problem with the "vulnerability" comes more when he's eating big suplexes or piledrivers and then giving the guy a 1-count.

The Backlund 1-count thing was a classic meme, to the point that Meltzer once wrote that Bob never took a 2-count. I found it so funny when watching Bob take two counts that I came up with my counter meme:

 

"... for a two count (!)"

 

And variations of it.

 

He'd have some 1-counts. He'd have some 2-counts. He'd have some pretty terrific 2-counts. I kind of like with Bob that you never know what you're going to get in a kick out, and when he goes deep on one, it's pretty cool. Lots of other folks roll out the 2.5 and 2.9's early and often, and the kick out is kind of meaningless until the finish comes.

[jdw]

Shrugged off implies him no selling it. Shake off implies him showing showing his toughness.

 

Again, I don't think he did either: Harley hit a headbutt drop, a swank kneelift to the skull and another, more theatrical headbutt drop before trying for the second pile driver. That one didn't get hit: Harley wanted to get back body dropped.

 

John

[Johnny Sorrow]

Shrugged off implies him no selling it. Shake off implies him showing showing his toughness.

 

Again, I don't think he did either: Harley hit a headbutt drop, a swank kneelift to the skull and another, more theatrical headbutt drop before trying for the second pile driver. That one didn't get hit: Harley wanted to get back body dropped.

 

John

 

It actually is just me goofing with Parv about both our debate on the next show and our ongoing piledriver talk on a lot of the shows. And let's face it. Harley's "fall sideways" piledriver looks like shit compared to Bob's.

[goodhelmet]

Bob has hit some great piledrivers.

[shoe]

Bob has hit some great piledrivers.

 

Some??? He has one of the 5 best piledrivers in my opinion.

[khawk20]

Does anyone have a review of the Backlund-John Studd match from January of 1983 at MSG kicking around? They built Studd up at that point to be a real monster, to the point where Monsoon was talking like it was almost certain that the match would mark the end of Bob's title reign, literally right before the match begins. While Monsoon might have done that at other times, this specific instance (I can't remember who was at the mic with him, maybe Patterson) seemed to paint a picture of the demise of Bob in a really definitive colour.

 

It seems to me that a match described like that should have been one that saw Backlund sell like a madman for Studd. All I remember right now is that it's relatively short and Backlund "got lucky" and won. No MSG rematch so it was a one-and-done for whatever reason.

 

IF Bob sold to the level that Monsoon et al seemed to expect him to sell, then it gives a reference point for a Bob match that Parv might have expected Bob to wrestle more often than he did.

IF Bob turned in a performance that sold less than the build for it, that lends creedence to Parv's argument about Bob in the role as Champ.

 

I think it's worth a look if someone can find it, for the purposes of this debate.

[jdw]

It actually is just me goofing with Parv about both our debate on the next show and our ongoing piledriver talk on a lot of the shows. And let's face it. Harley's "fall sideways" piledriver looks like shit compared to Bob's.

I liked Harley's piledriver in the match. It's not quite my favorite type of his: I like when puts the opponent in the driver spot, then takes a look down his body towards the mat as if he's making a "sight line" to where he's going to drop the guys head. This one... he fell back on his ass.

 

Bob has some great ones. He also has some horrendously awful ones where his legs go in strange directions, or where the opponent's head is way too low and not properly protected. But it's one of the loveable things about the Bob Driver: being a trainwreck only makes it more of a hoot.

 

John

[jdw]

Does anyone have a review of the Backlund-John Studd match from January of 1983 at MSG kicking around? They built Studd up at that point to be a real monster, to the point where Monsoon was talking like it was almost certain that the match would mark the end of Bob's title reign, literally right before the match begins. While Monsoon might have done that at other times, this specific instance (I can't remember who was at the mic with him, maybe Patterson) seemed to paint a picture of the demise of Bob in a really definitive colour.

 

It seems to me that a match described like that should have been one that saw Backlund sell like a madman for Studd. All I remember right now is that it's relatively short and Backlund "got lucky" and won. No MSG rematch so it was a one-and-done for whatever reason.

 

IF Bob sold to the level that Monsoon et al seemed to expect him to sell, then it gives a reference point for a Bob match that Parv might have expected Bob to wrestle more often than he did.

IF Bob turned in a performance that sold less than the build for it, that lends creedence to Parv's argument about Bob in the role as Champ.

 

I think it's worth a look if someone can find it, for the purposes of this debate.

The Spectrum match, which went 4 minutes longer, is on DM. Don't see the MSG match.

 

It was Vince & Gorilla on the MSG show, Dick Graham & Gorilla on the Philly show.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

It's on the set

[peachchaos]

I must be a total Backlund and Harley mark because I loved every second of that clash.

 

And Harley-Lawler is the GMOAT.

 

Though at this point, I know I've seen far less footage than most everyone here and I fully admit I do not break matches down segment-by-segment.

[shoe]

It's possibly the most extreme case of "playing the bitch" of all time though. I do think Backlund has a problem showing weakness and vulnerability. It's starting to be a major problem for me watching his matches.

 

Bruno didn't. Hogan didn't. But Backlund might just be "the strongest" babyface I've ever seen. He doesn't give his opponents much. There are times when I think even guys like The Road Warriors gave heels more.

 

I'm extremely interested to see what Stan Hansen does with Backlund now in 1981. Hansen FORCED Inoki to sell for him in that series of matches. I want to see him do the same with Backlund.

 

I just watched the Bruno/Hansen cage match from 77. It went 11 minutes and I bet Stan took one minute of offense. This is just one example. It's also possible Bruno didn't want to give Stan a lot because he was legit injured by him. Other possibilities when Bruno gave Stan opportunities too take control he used it to attempt to escape the cage. I'm just curious to see how this develops. Is it a Backlund thing or is it a WWF champion thing pre Vince taking over.

[jdw]

The WWWF/WWF was strange in those regards. They were perfectly fine having a face kick the shit out of a heel, especially in the equiv of a blow off.

 

In turn, it was still around in the late 80s. I wrote a fair amount about Heel In Peril in the WWF Thread years ago. It was annoying to watch Arn & Tully HIP so much after seeing them do a good job in JCP when working on top in FIP situations.

 

John

[thebrainfollower]

Agreed 100% with that JDW. I just watched an Arn/Tully - Young Stallions LA match from November of 88. Despite the fact that the Stallions mini push is over and they are on the verge of breaking up and Arn/Tully are the new hot team they basically dominate 75% of the match with their lame arm work. Arn/Tully do get a more or less clean win at least.

 

As for Bob here's a question for people. Assuming, unless anyone thinks otherwise, that his working on top style was Bob's own choice, what was his motivation? Deep insecurity ala Hogan against Flair in 94? Being a legit tough guy who needs to show it all times? Just the way he thought a match should go?

 

BTW Parv in Rocky III Rocky pretty much kicks the hell out of Clubber Lang in their rematch. Even the heat segment with Clubber in Round 2 is pretty much Rocky just mind fning him to show he can take Clubber's best shots and survive. That's a rare example of babyface domination in the movies.

 

Lex Luthor barely feels like a threat at all in Superman 1, 2 and IV. Just a nuisance really. General Grievous is pretty much no sold as a threat by both Anakin and Obi-Wan in Ep III and gets his ass kicked when he fights Kenobi.

 

Wussy villains getting clobbered is rare but it DOES happen. All of the Batman villains in the 60's show. With the exception of the Joker in his first story, at no point does Batman sell ANY of these guys/girls as threats. They're scum beneath his contempt he outwits and outfights with relative ease.

[JerryvonKramer]

Agreed 100% with that JDW. I just watched an Arn/Tully - Young Stallions LA match from November of 88. Despite the fact that the Stallions mini push is over and they are on the verge of breaking up and Arn/Tully are the new hot team they basically dominate 75% of the match with their lame arm work. Arn/Tully do get a more or less clean win at least.

 

As for Bob here's a question for people. Assuming, unless anyone thinks otherwise, that his working on top style was Bob's own choice, what was his motivation? Deep insecurity ala Hogan against Flair in 94? Being a legit tough guy who needs to show it all times? Just the way he thought a match should go?

 

BTW Parv in Rocky III Rocky pretty much kicks the hell out of Clubber Lang in their rematch. Even the heat segment with Clubber in Round 2 is pretty much Rocky just mind fning him to show he can take Clubber's best shots and survive. That's a rare example of babyface domination in the movies.

 

Lex Luthor barely feels like a threat at all in Superman 1, 2 and IV. Just a nuisance really. General Grievous is pretty much no sold as a threat by both Anakin and Obi-Wan in Ep III and gets his ass kicked when he fights Kenobi.

 

Wussy villains getting clobbered is rare but it DOES happen. All of the Batman villains in the 60's show. With the exception of the Joker in his first story, at no point does Batman sell ANY of these guys/girls as threats. They're scum beneath his contempt he outwits and outfights with relative ease.

Story of Rocky vs. Clubber Lang is that Mr T was used to winning quick knock outs so Rocky lets him wear himself out in rounds 1 and 2 to take it when he's out of gas.

 

Batman example doesn't work.

 

The "heat segment" is the crime caper in the first place culminating with Batman and Robin getting tied to the conveyor belt headed for the rotating saw blade, the "come back and pay off" is Bats kicking ass at the end of the two-episode arch.

 

Hackman's Luthor is weak, I'll grant you that. He kinda looks a bit like Harley Race too. But Luthor's MO was never to go toe to toe with Supes but to outthink him. Luthor in the Reeves movies is kinda toned down and made into more of a comic foil. Zod is the threat in 2. 4 as I recall is awful and all about that nuclear bomb.

 

Also, even Superman has kryptonite to slow him down. Backlund doesn't have any kryptonite, he's probably the real Man of Steel.

[jdw]

Agreed 100% with that JDW. I just watched an Arn/Tully - Young Stallions LA match from November of 88. Despite the fact that the Stallions mini push is over and they are on the verge of breaking up and Arn/Tully are the new hot team they basically dominate 75% of the match with their lame arm work. Arn/Tully do get a more or less clean win at least.

The one in Toronto was:

-Six minutes: Faces on Top (little Hot Opening and a little Heel In Peril)

-Five minutes: Face In Peril

-One minute: run to the finish

 

I wrote that it was less than I recalled on initial viewing, but poor clock management given the teams - Arn & Tully are really good at topping in FIP segments while feeding the faces comeback attempts.

 

Here's another one I had in mind about Arn & Tully working HIP:

 

vs Hart Foundation (SummerSlam)

-10 minutes: Heel In Peril

-3.5 minutes: FIP

-2+ minutes: run to finish

 

The matches with the Rockers around the horn typically opened with long Heel Stooging + Heel In Peril segments.

 

The long Boston Garden match opened with 12 minutes of Heel Stooging + Heel In Peril, before going 9 minutes of FIP with Marty and then the last 2 minutes running to the finish. If there was an issue with the FIP section it was that it was all on Marty rather than going "double dip" with a hot tag and false house o' fire by Shawn before getting taken down.

 

The match in MSG earlier in the day was 8+5+1 HS/HIP+FIP+RTF.

[shoe]

The formula for Bruno, Bob, and Pedro is they all worked on top. This was a WWF thing not just a Bob Backlund thing . I think their belief was they had to keep their face champions strong to draw. This isn't my favorite style. I just think applying it to only Bob isn't fair.