Booking philosophies of match sequencing

[jdw]

Anyway, to come back to the thread topic, I'm not convinced that you can just throw out the idea of peaks and troughs because you can think of examples where a show has had back-to-back hot matches.

 

jdw dodged this question to indulge in his favourite hobby, which is finding new and inventive ways to disagree with me inthe most condescending way he can come up with and/or winding me up at the same time.

 

Question for jdw: to what extent did each of those matches have peaks and troughs (or valleys as you call them) WITHIN each match?

 

Actually, I answered that, but you ignored it:

 

Question for jdw: to what extent did each of those matches have peaks and troughs (or valleys as you call them) WITHIN each match?

 

The principle holds true for match structure as it does for card structure.

 

I think one of the problems with Rock vs Cena is that it didn't build, it's basically one long finish sequence.

 

I actually think you're mistaken on that, both for Rock-Cena and Trip-Brock. They weren't 24 straight minutes each of high spots. Neither was Taker-Punk. They have plenty of "troughs" where they're laying around selling the fuck out of spot... insert the popular phrase on this board about being self indulgent.

 

John

I really don't think that the Rock-Cena and Trip-Brock are the non-stop-spot-o-thons you're making them out to be. Nor that the style contrast between those two (from one to the next) is that different from say the style contract of Hansen-Kawada leading into Misawa-Taue.

 

 

 

That's something I wanted to come back to, which is that match structure itself has ups and downs built into it. It's a point that was lost in the mix. If you look at NWA cards, there may be a hot semi-main but the Flair match will start slow so your "trough" is the first 7-10 minutes of matwork. I've seen dozens of shows structured in that way.

Ric really wasn't a big matwork guy. His first 7-10 minutes of a match tended to have as much "stuff" as a lot of people's 12 minute full matches. Have a hold, pick it up, do some high spots, maybe take it down maybe not, etc.

 

 

WWF didn't have long 30-minute+ main events like that, so they structured their cards differently. Instead of 7-10 minutes of matwork, you get 2 filler matches.

The WWF had different reasons for doing their cards. They often liked to put the main event (Hogan or Backlund match) on before intermission (or before late in the match) so that they could announce the rematch later on the show to get people hyped to go on last.

 

Generally speaking, Flair always went on Last or Second To Last on JCP Expansion Era shows. He would go on Second To Last when there was a Cage Match main event, usually Dusty or something like that. It simply was a matter of taking time to put the cage up and take it down, so if Ric's match wasn't a cage match as well, they'd have him go on second to last.

 

It's just the way that JCP, and a lot of promotions, structured their cards. It was more tradition than looking around and saying, "We don't want Wrestler X to have to follow this hot match!" In turn, the WWF booked their cards with the Main Event not actually going on Last all the way back into the 70s. It's just how they did it. Doesn't mean that they were self aware in laying out their cards. Someone in the 60s or 50s came up with it, and stuck with it.

 

Christ... it's pro wrestling. These guys aren't rocket scientists. They tend to find something that works for them (or think works for them), and stick with it. Searching for hidden meanings in it is a waste.

 

 

KrisZ said that most other territories booked their big shows more like NWA than WWF. I'd be interested to see if the match lengths were about the same.

And there were others that booked it like the WWF. Go look up old newspaper results and see matches going on after the Main Event. JCP might be more traditional, but the WWF wasn't completely unique.

 

Peaks and troughs is not something I've made up by the way, it's a very well known consideration for any crowd when managing an event.

No one is claiming you made it up.

 

We're saying that you're making way too much of it.

 

 

Not just wrestling, any event. Let's throw it out the window though, because jdw can think of Liger-Sasuke and Pegasus-Sasuke.

Well, I actually tossed out several examples. From several promotions. I could toss out some Lucha shows that I went to where the crowd was batshit hot for 4+ straight matches, including main events that most probably would think we shitty. Long cards, that started more than an hour late and were closing in on midnight when they ended... but the crowd still gave more heat than Brock-Trip and Cena-Rock.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

jdw, you've got to draw a distinction between the booking of an average card and the booking of a Wrestlemania or a Starrcade though, no? I mean apart from Mania 4, when did Hogan ever not go on last on a Mania card during his peak run?

 

Do I think Vince thought about these things? I absolutely do. You don't put on Rude vs. Snuka in a nothing match just before the main event if you're not thinking it through.

[jdw]

Well let me ask you then NintendoLogic: do you think Warrior vs. Hogan would have suffered if something like Punk vs. Taker had been right before it? Do you think it would have gone down the same way or would it have been affected?

 

The peaks and troughs within a match I'm talking about are in a 40-minute Flair match following something like a Tag title or US title switch. They are going from a high into Flair stalling or sitting in a hammerlock or something. It's been a while since I saw Hogan vs. Warrior but doesn't it start with them nose to nose and a series of immovable object vs. irresistible force spots with the crowd going absolutely mental? I think an audience might be able to sustain that for 20 minutes if they are coming into it ready.

A Flair "peak & trough" isn't remotely close to a Divas Match or a 4 minute Rude-Snuka match. At that point in a Mania card, no one gives two shits about Rude and Snuka while Hogan-Warrior is up next. With Flair... he's the Main Event, the match that people have been waiting to see.

 

Pop in the Clash 1. Watch the buzz for Arn & Tully vs Barry & Lex. Then watch the buzz in the pre match for Sting-Flair, and through their early stuff. JCP Fans didn't need a Divas Match to come out to give them time to take a piss or clam down before Ric and Sting came out to work.

 

Did they work up and down? Sure. But that also because Clash 1 and Clash VI were counter programmed against Mania, with the intent to put on a Loooooooooooong Flair Match opposite of Mania on Free TV. These weren't ordinary Flair matches. We never saw Flair PPV matches in that era go 45 and 55 minutes, and him going even 35+ was rate on PPV (only one comes to mind). Set aside those two outliers, and the average Clash Main Event in the Flair Era (3/88 - 6/91) was just over 12 minutes. Flair's other main events in that era averaged over 15 minutes.

 

Or flip it another way:

 

How different were the peaks & troughs of Flair-Funk at Clash IX, relative to the era, to that peaks & troughs of Trip-Brock and Cena-Rock?

 

Relative to the era, not at all.

 

My recollection also is that they followed a pretty good Lex-Pillman match, and didn't need a Big Josh or Ding Dongs match in between to break things up.

 

John, thinking it's probably best not to bring up the last four matches of the 1989 Bash...

[tomk]

So I've been in crowds that laughed pretty hard at the spot where one member of MX ends up with head in anothers dick while face does the swishy hand, and the spot where Eaton drapes faces arm over top rope and Lane stands with back to ring to wrench arm over his shoulder only for face to escape and Lane unknowingly wrenches Eaton's arm.

 

I just searched youtube for a Roughouse Fargo tag and this is first one that pops up:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AtX2LTpczo

 

Ric and Scott Steiner didn't build their whole matches around them but I've seen Ric and Scott Steiner do most of these same comedy spots to crowd hooting.

[jdw]

jdw, you've got to draw a distinction between the booking of an average card and the booking of a Wrestlemania or a Starrcade though, no? I mean apart from Mania 4, when did Hogan ever not go on last on a Mania card during his peak run?

Starcade 83 finished with the three biggest matches.

 

Starcade 85 finished with the four biggest matches.

 

Starcade 86 finished with the four biggest matches.

 

Etc.

 

The WWF, and specifically Wrestlemania, are different beasts. They have their way of doing things, and it goes back before Vince took over. But you don't honestly think that Hogan-Andre couldn't have directly followed Savage-Steamboat, right? That it needed two matches between to calm the match down? Seriously... Hogan-Andre that card could have followed five straight Savage-Steamboats and the crowd would have gone batshit.

 

In turn, every Hogan Match at Mania from 1985-92 could have follow *any* match on those specific cards. Vince didn't break things up so that Hogan Fans could get recharged before Hogan came out. It's simply the way Vince and the WWF did things.

 

 

Do I think Vince thought about these things? I absolutely do. You don't put on Rude vs. Snuka in a nothing match just before the main event if you're not thinking it through.

Again: there wasn't a single match on that card that Hogan-Warrior couldn't have followed. Hell, it's not like that was a good undercard with even a Savage-Steamer on it.

 

Vince & Co. laid out their card because that's how they liked to break up Mania. Not because they feared what you see as a Punk-Taker + Trip-Brock + Cena-Rock effect coming crashing down on Hogan and Warrior. There literally wasn't a single match the WWF put on in 1990 that Hogan-Warrior couldn't have followed and gotten the exact same reaction. Hell, it's possible they would have gotten a better reaction if fans didn't have to sit through a largely shitty undercard.

 

John

[WingedEagle]

So was there more laughing in Choshu & Yatsu vs Jumbo & Tenryu than that Warrior-Heenan Weasel Suit match?

I may have laughed the first time I watched them as I was blown away things like that were happening in Japan in the 80s. Sheer, joyful laughter.

[jdw]

So I've been in crowds that laughed pretty hard at the spot where one member of MX ends up with head in anothers dick while face does the swishy hand, and the spot where Eaton drapes faces arm over top rope and Lane stands with back to ring to wrench arm over his shoulder only for face to escape and Lane unknowingly wrenches Eaton's arm.

I love the arm wrenching spot. You can see that in clips back in the 60s.

 

 

 

 

 

I just searched youtube for a Roughouse Fargo tag and this is first one that pops up:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AtX2LTpczo

Awesome.

 

That Jacksons are a current team that when you see them in an indy setting, getting to work *their* match (as opposed to being forced by TNA to work a TV format), they have loads of Bullshit that gets the crowd laughing their asses off.

 

Or...

 

Folks should find some Candice LeRae intergender matches. The funny thing is that *she* tends to work as non-comedy and non-emotional as say 1987 Barry Windham, but she (and her opponents) have a load of spots for the Guy opponent to stooge and eat shit on. They're a part of her matches, but she tends to work serious, get put upon by the guys, then they eat it in paybacks. No one will confuse it with Akira Hokuto, but I have a good amount of respect for Candice working hard, taking way more from people in the ring than I would, and developing her own matches.

[jdw]

So was there more laughing in Choshu & Yatsu vs Jumbo & Tenryu than that Warrior-Heenan Weasel Suit match?

I may have laughed the first time I watched them as I was blown away things like that were happening in Japan in the 80s. Sheer, joyful laughter.

 

[tomk]

So I've been in crowds that laughed pretty hard at the spot where one member of MX ends up with head in anothers dick while face does the swishy hand, and the spot where Eaton drapes faces arm over top rope and Lane stands with back to ring to wrench arm over his shoulder only for face to escape and Lane unknowingly wrenches Eaton's arm.

I love the arm wrenching spot. You can see that in clips back in the 60s.

 

 

yeah, I've seen it in lucha a bunch.

There is a section of the internet who first saw the arm wrenching spot as an MPro lucharesu spot...and you would get these reviews of MX matches where the author would writes "Stan Lane does the Super-Delphin spot..." which would crack me up, ("I'm watching this Lou Thesz match and he does a Steve Austin press").

 

So yes, it's a spot that translates across time and cultures.

[JerryvonKramer]

With the laughter thing, I did manage to track down Heenan vs. Warrior, and it was difficult to tell exactly what the crowd was doing because it was so noisy in general, the music, general pops for Warrior, the commentary team. I think in All Japan the key difference is that things are quiet enough for you to hear the laughter -- same with that Les Kellet match I was talking with OJ about.

 

As for peaks and troughs I don't know. If the filler matches weren't needed before Hogan vs. Warrior, why did they program that way? Same with Hogan vs. Andre, why didn't they run Savage vs. Steamboat right behind it? There must be some reason for it because the nothing matches look very deliberate in all of the first decade of Manias and into the second. Your explanation for this, jdw, is "tradition". I don't see that as being a very satisfactory explanation.

 

JCP stacked the card late, I never said they didn't. What I did say is that the semi-main would be about 10 minutes and worked in a different fashion from the Flair match which typically goes longer and involves early stalling or matwork. This has all been flatly disputed by you jdw.I've watched all those shows in the past year complete with play-by-play notes that run many pages. Maybe we watched different shows. Yes the crowd is stoked for the Flair match, but there's still a moment when they come down before being brought up again in the early going. You're saying he didn't do that, the first 5-10 minutes is just more "stuff to do". Well I've been told, so I guess there's nothing left to say about it.

[jdw]

So I've been in crowds that laughed pretty hard at the spot where one member of MX ends up with head in anothers dick while face does the swishy hand, and the spot where Eaton drapes faces arm over top rope and Lane stands with back to ring to wrench arm over his shoulder only for face to escape and Lane unknowingly wrenches Eaton's arm.

I love the arm wrenching spot. You can see that in clips back in the 60s.

 

 

yeah, I've seen it in lucha a bunch.

 

Totally forgot that... it's awesome in Lucha!

 

 

There is a section of the internet who first saw the arm wrenching spot as an MPro lucharesu spot...and you would get these reviews of MX matches where the author would writes "Stan Lane does the Super-Delphin spot..." which would crack me up, ("I'm watching this Lou Thesz match and he does a Steve Austin press").

Yeah... the MPro version was awesome too.

 

 

So yes, it's a spot that translates across time and cultures.

Totally. Worked from territory to territory, country to country.

 

John

[jdw]

As for peaks and troughs I don't know. If the filler matches weren't needed before Hogan vs. Warrior, why did they program that way?

Jerry: look at that card. Do you honestly think Hogan-Warrior couldn't have followed *any* match on the card? There really isn't anything of not or real interest or great feuds on it. It's about as one-match as Mania's ever got. :/

 

 

Same with Hogan vs. Andre, why didn't they run Savage vs. Steamboat right behind it?

Why would they have Savage-Steamer follow the match that sold 90K tickets?

 

I'm talking in the other direction: if it went Steamer-Savage then Hogan-Andre, back-to-back to close the card, do you really think Hogan-Andre... the most anticipated match of that entire generation... the one that sold 90K tickets couldn't have followed Steamer-Savage?

 

 

There must be some reason for it because the nothing matches look very deliberate in all of the first decade of Manias and into the second.

It's just the way that Vince & Co chose to layout their cards. They liked to have a "main event" before intermission / in the middle of the card.

 

 

Your explanation for this, jdw, is "tradition". I don't see that as being a very satisfactory explanation.

Explaining WWF Thought is rarely satisfactory. Do you think WWF Think only became unsatisfying to explain in the Russo Era... or the Trip-Steph Era of writing? It's long been that way.

 

 

JCP stacked the card late, I never said they didn't. What I did say is that the semi-main would be about 10 minutes and worked in a different fashion from the Flair match which typically goes longer and involves early stalling or matwork.

I saw 20 minute MX matches followed by 20 minute Flair matches, +/- 3 minutes each.

 

The last two matches at Starcade 86 went 19+ each. This wasn't terribly uncommon.

 

If Dusty went on right before Flair, or the Road Warriors did, then you'd get a 10 minute or less match.

 

 

This has all been flatly disputed by you jdw. I've watched all those shows in the past year complete with play-by-play notes that run many pages.

Odd... I didn't think there were many full JCP house shows out there, similar to the MSG, Boston and Philly cards for the WWF. This is something new to me. Perhaps you can point me to where these exist.

 

 

Maybe we watched different shows. Yes the crowd is stoked for the Flair match, but there's still a moment when they come down before being brought up again in the early going. You're saying he didn't do that the first 5-10 minutes is just more "stuff to do". Well I've been told, so I guess there's nothing left to say about it.

My thought would be to watch the long 20+ minute Tito-Orton draw, the long Tito-Rude match in Boston, and then a 20 minute Flair match with say Barry Windham. You tell me who had more Stuff in the first 5-10 minutes.

 

That after all is why Ric gets pimped as the best of all-time: because he had those "great" matches that kept people into them, while others laid around more.

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

Obviously I'm not saying that Americans don't laugh, I'm just saying there's a cultural difference between the way American audiences and Japanese audiences react to things. The laughter you get in 80s All Japan is a certain type of laughter too, kinda warm, everyone is in it together.

Perhaps there are differences between Japanese and American comedy? Comedy dominates a large chunk of Japanese prime time, but they don't have sitcoms. Quirky, off-beat dramas sometimes, but no real sitcoms. It's mostly variety shows hosted by famous Japanese comedians, with the roots in Manzai, which is an Abbott and Costello style double act as opposed to stand-up comedy in the States. I've been in the audience during comedy matches at Joshi and Osaka Pro shows and the comedy has a Manzai feel to it. There's also plenty of audience participation. The humour in these cases is often a parody of pro-wrestling, whereas comedy spots in the US (at least in the major promotions, not the indies) is often situation comedy such as a spot in a Midnight Express match. It's quite different from a match where Kellett or Hirota break the fourth wall almost in terms of talking to the ref, their opponent, the audience, making gags in the middle of holds, doing joke spots. Bobby Heenan bumping and stooging is not really in the same category as the comedy matches from Britain or Japan.

[goodhelmet]

I don't think Jerry is saying American crowds are unable to laugh at comedy matches or comedy spots in a wrestling match. The point is how a crowd responds and how it comes across on TV. I think you can hear laughing more when somebody fucks up than an actual comedy spot. In Japan, during the JCup, I think it was Sasuke who fell off the ropes and the crowd didn't groan or pop, they laughed. It was all you heard. In an MX comedy spot, the crowd doesn't laugh, they pop and yell and cheer and scream... completely different reaction even if the people sitting next to Tom are hooting and hollering. I watched the Fargo clip and that's a pretty good example of the overall audience actually laughing, not cheering and yelling during the comedy spots.

[JerryvonKramer]

jdw - I'll be honest, getting bogged down in specific examples with you is among my least favourite activities. I'll make a general statement based on watching hours and hours of footage, you'll go and find a card from 1986 or whenever to disprove the theory or observation. I think you want me to come back with specific counter examples. It's a game for which I've no interest or time. Just not the way I roll, never has been. We can all find examples of cards with long main events, short main events, two long matches in a row at the end, hot crowds, cold crowds, etc. etc. It's not very interesting to list them. And finding exceptions to general rules is easy to do.

 

I want to cut to the chase here. What's our bottomline conclusion then? Is it this ...

 

That crowds can't get burnt out and can stay pumped for 4 hours if the wrestling is good enough, that match sequencing essentially doesn't matter if the crowd are invested in the wrestlers and the fueds.

 

Is that the sort of statement you are driving towards? Would you sign your name off on that? Would everyone else here sign their name off on that?

 

Either crowds can get burnt out or they can't. Either match sequencing matters, or it doesn't. I don't think it's too simplistic to say that we can reduce this whole debate down to those two binary questions.

[soup23]

I would sign off to the bolded statement. An emotional connection to the performers independently of the structure has to be there for the crowd heat to be optimum. Some matches may have an advantage to gain a bigger crowd reaction (The opener), but overall the audience still has to care about who is out there to react.

[Loss]

I would too. I think it's a matter of how the matches are worked. I wouldn't even call that "good" or "bad". It's more about understanding what preceded the match and what is to follow, and working the right type of match for that spot on the card.

 

I don't think Jerry is saying American crowds are unable to laugh at comedy matches or comedy spots in a wrestling match. The point is how a crowd responds and how it comes across on TV. I think you can hear laughing more when somebody fucks up than an actual comedy spot. In Japan, during the JCup, I think it was Sasuke who fell off the ropes and the crowd didn't groan or pop, they laughed. It was all you heard. In an MX comedy spot, the crowd doesn't laugh, they pop and yell and cheer and scream... completely different reaction even if the people sitting next to Tom are hooting and hollering. I watched the Fargo clip and that's a pretty good example of the overall audience actually laughing, not cheering and yelling during the comedy spots.

I agree completely with this. The audible reaction to comedy matches is usually a screaming pop, not a sitcom laugh track. That doesn't mean people aren't laughing. Honestly, this could be a matter of simple acoustics. But it's very rare that you hear that reaction in American wrestling.

 

Also, is a weasel suit match seen as a funny, ha-ha match? Or is it seen as a glorious comeuppance for a slimy manager? Most of the time, comedy in U.S. wrestling is happenstance. It happens to be funny, but it isn't necessary played for laughs. Even an evening gown match between Patterson and Brisco has a storyline reason for happening, instead of the announcers saying "Check this out! We're about to make you laugh!"

 

Compare that to something like Damian/Naniwa, which is obviously just a naked attempt to make people laugh.

[Dooley]

As for peaks and troughs I don't know. If the filler matches weren't needed before Hogan vs. Warrior, why did they program that way?

 

I'm talking in the other direction: if it went Steamer-Savage then Hogan-Andre, back-to-back to close the card, do you really think Hogan-Andre... the most anticipated match of that entire generation... the one that sold 90K tickets couldn't have followed Steamer-Savage?

 

I actually do think having Hogan-Andre immediately follow Savage-Steamboat would have been a problem. For many WWF-centric fans, Savage-Steamboat was the greatest thing they'd ever seen and to have Hogan work an immobile Andre directly after did pose a legitimate risk of cooling the crowd. As it stood, I remember more fans talking about Savage-Steamboat when it was over. All anyone remembered about the main event was that Hogan bodyslammed the Giant.

 

WM3 was well laid-out in terms of match sequencing. There were three main matches people want to see and WWF gave them Piper-Adonis in the first 3rd, Savage-Steamboat in the middle and Hogan-Andre at the end. Plenty of time for people to mark the fuck out for the matches in question and still recharge for the big finish.

[ohtani's jacket]

With the laughter thing, I did manage to track down Heenan vs. Warrior, and it was difficult to tell exactly what the crowd was doing because it was so noisy in general, the music, general pops for Warrior, the commentary team. I think in All Japan the key difference is that things are quiet enough for you to hear the laughter -- same with that Les Kellet match I was talking with OJ about.

I also watched Heenan/Warrior and the simple fact is it's just not that funny.

[khawk20]

Also, is a weasel suit match seen as a funny, ha-ha match? Or is it seen as a glorious comeuppance for a slimy manager?

I have always put Warrior-Heenan as an attempt at "ha-ha" funny, and Gagne-Heenan as a "glorious comeuppance" circumstance. Just my take, however.

 

I never found Warrior-Heenan very funny either, but I think that's what they were going for.

 

It's hard for it to be considered anything other than an attempt at laughs without an opponent that Heenan could actually find a way to beat on the other end of the Weasel Suit Challenge. Warrior was not that opponent...Gagne was.

 

As such, there are two completely different vibes to the matches.

[Matt D]

The post-match stuff is what's funny with warrior vs heenan

[khawk20]

The post-match stuff is what's funny with warrior vs heenan

...and that, after watching Heenan in other Weasel Suit matches through the years, comes off really unfunny to me. It's pretty much the same schtick, but Warrior using a sleeper (random) through Heenan not putting a real effort forward once he's in the suit doesn't come off well at all to me.

[Matt D]

Alright, the POST Warrior leaving stuff is what's funny.

[jdw]

I want to cut to the chase here. What's our bottomline conclusion then? Is it this ...

 

That crowds can't get burnt out and can stay pumped for 4 hours if the wrestling is good enough, that match sequencing essentially doesn't matter if the crowd are invested in the wrestlers and the fueds.

 

Is that the sort of statement you are driving towards? Would you sign your name off on that? Would everyone else here sign their name off on that?

 

Either crowds can get burnt out or they can't. Either match sequencing matters, or it doesn't. I don't think it's too simplistic to say that we can reduce this whole debate down to those two binary questions.

I've been in crowds where the fans have gotten burned out despite the card being good, and being drained before a good main event happens.

 

I've been in crowds where the fans *haven't* gotten burned out despite the card being good, and not being drained for a good main event or good late-in-the-card match.

 

I've been at cards where the crowd had gotten burned out in under 2 hours.

 

I've been at cards where the crowd has gone batshit over 5 hours in.

 

You're trying to apply a binary Yes:No / Black:White one rule fits all.

 

I think that's utter bullshit as crowds and cards and wrestlers are different.

 

Which is why I keep trying to point to Warrior-Hogan:

 

It doesn't matter what on that card came before it, the fans were going to still lose their shit. It's frankly a really weak Mania card. But still... you could put Savage-Steamer infront of it, and Hogan-Warrior still would have had heat. Just as if at Mania III Steamer-Savage went on right before Hogan-Andre: that main event would have had the fans losing their shit right from the entrances.

 

This is your problem in these discussions: you see binary, get your mind set in the 0 position, can't grasp that not only is 1 possible... but that they are a myriad of 0.1 and 0.2 and .03 and ,0.4 and 0.5 and 0.6 and 0.7 and 0.8 and 0.9 in between. Hogan-Warrior doesn't fit your 0, so it gets ingored or is treated as "Vince must have been worried about something to put two shitty matches on before it." Hogan-Andre on a card with Steamer-Savage doesn't fit your 0, is quite troubling to your 0 concept... so it's best just to back away from it and pretend it never happened.

 

There are cards that a 0 as you think, be it due to the fans or the workers. This year's Mania was a 0, and we all could see some layout work was needed, especially around the Brock-Trip match. But that's not a rule that we can then apply to every card in the world.

 

Mania VI was a 1. Hogan-Warrior was going to get heat where ever it was placed, and in fact it was a generally weak card where nothing else on was a big heat magnet anyway.

 

Mania III was a 0.5. There was another great, heated match on the card that the fans ate up: Savage-Steamer. But... truly... 90K fans were there to specifically see Hogan-Andre, at the very peak of Hulkamania. The fans buzzed to see it. They laid out a match that played to the fans nearly perfect. It doesn't matter of another great heat match was on in front of it: Hogan-Andre would have still torn the house down.

 

So get past your 0:1 viewpoint of pro wrestling, and get past getting stuck on 0.

[jdw]

I also watched Heenan/Warrior and the simple fact is it's just not that funny.

I didn't find it a hoot. But then again... how many people laughed at Mae Young's kid? We might not find it funny, but it clearly was a comedy spot.