Dylan Waco Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Was talking about this with Loss the other day and looking through the archives I don't think this has ever been explored in a thread. Of course to some degree this is subjective/opinion and then there are always strange quirks like Ice Train being hugely over in my hometown for unexplained reasons. But really what I am looking for here is people who were consistently more popular than their push would indicate. In general I think this is kind of murky territory because there are guys like Rey who I think were theoretically over enough to be "A" level stars but were still used in a way that was of massive value to the company he was in, so I could sort of see an argument for him either way. On the other hand there is a guy like Jericho who really seems like he has always been more over than his push, barring one or two brief periods - and yet I have no confidence in the notion of him as an "ace" type guy. I am actually really interested to see what other names pop up in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Jericho and Rey are obviously the first names that come to mind. Daniel Bryan and Brian Pillman are the next ones. Pre-1991, I'd also say Bret Hart. I think it's going to be typically midcard workrate types that end up being named in this category, because if a big guy starts getting a crowd reaction, promoters are usually quick to act on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 This is a great time to mention that while working on the 2000 Yearbook list, I noticed some interesting numbers. The week after the phantom title change with HHH and Jericho in 2000, RAW ratings increased from a 6.3 to a 7.1, peaking at 7.4 for the HHH/Benoit vs Rock/Jericho main event. A couple of months later, when HHH and Jericho had their first televised match, they grew the audience from a 6.5 to a 7.7 in one quarter. The next two quarters lost viewers until Rock vs Kane brought them back at the end with an 8.0 quarter. My takeaway from that is that if WWE wanted Jericho to be a main event level draw, their best opportunity was to shoot him to the moon in April 2000. It's amazing looking back that Jericho was not really pushed at all prior to the HHH match, and him being pushed on top was immediately reflected in the numbers. Later Jericho pushes weren't unsuccessful, but I think the opportunity was lost after 2000 to make him a megastar who could succeed Austin, Rock and Foley. I don't think he needed to beat HHH at Fully Loaded necessarily, but dropping into an X-Pac feud after that match hurt him. Losing so many matches to Benoit during that time is a curious decision too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boondocks Kernoodle Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Not to discount Jericho's effect on the ratings but the week after the HHH-Jericho title switch was also the week after they announced Austin was returning at Backlash. It's possible more viewers tuned in thinking Stone Cold might be on the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Damn it if that studio audience in 1993 didn't love the Cole Twins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 I would throw Benoit into this category to from around 1996-1999. He was getting consistently very good to great responses that rivaled main eventers from Great American Bash 1996 on. Yet, he didn't main event a PPV until November 1999 and even in that match with Bret Hart, he was treated like an up and comer on the brink of stardom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Eddie Guerrero in 2003. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Brian Pillman in WCW. Ridiculously over, yet never pushed seriously. Yumi Fukawa in ARSION. Their audience *loved* Fukawa. She never went past mid-card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Matt Hardy during his post-Edge run on Smackdown. You could even say Jeff as well, even though he did get a main event level push eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Is it fair to put the entire WCW cruiserweight division during the NWO's hayday in this category? I remember the cruiserweights always getting good reactions from the live audience even though the announcers usually paid no attention to their matches and sometimes even shit all over them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s1rweeze Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Another obvious one is autumn 2001 RVD, although WWE did sort of begrudgingly squeeze him into the triple threat title match at Survivor Series. Does babyface Rikishi fall into this category? He got some main event rub in 2000 but never headlined a PPV or anything until his ill-fated heel turn. But man, he got some massive reactions from January through that summer. Another was Christian in 2005 when crowds were just begging for him to take on Cena, but again WWE did the "Fine, we'll throw you into a three-way for the title" and that was that. I'll go off the map a bit and say the Rockers in 1990-91. Everywhere they went they got massive reactions and amazing matches, but were stuck in neutral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 We can debate this, but Jim Duggan? Did WWF ever push him really? He seemed to be a lower card guy for his entire run and yet the crowd always ate up his shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s1rweeze Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Another obvious one is autumn 2001 RVD, although WWE did sort of begrudgingly squeeze him into the triple threat title match at Survivor Series. Does babyface Rikishi fall into this category? He got some main event rub in 2000 but never headlined a PPV or anything until his ill-fated heel turn. But man, he got some massive reactions from January through that summer. Another was Christian in 2005 when crowds were just begging for him to take on Cena, but again WWE did the "Fine, we'll throw you into a three-way for the title" and that was that. To follow up, I know these are instances exclusive to one period of time, but I'll just add that because of these instances, the crowd always cared about these guys much more than their push warranted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 We can debate this, but Jim Duggan? Did WWF ever push him really? He seemed to be a lower card guy for his entire run and yet the crowd always ate up his shit. No argument here. Duggan was over in Wichita to a stunning degree. There must have been 5000 fans with those foam 2 X 4's at a house show in June 1990. As recently as last year, Duggan was a special attraction at an independent league baseball game here in town. Average attendance for regular games was/is around 3000. The Duggan appearance drew 7500, and he was cheered like a rock star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Am I hallucinating or did I reply to a post that Loss made about Ric Flair ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Brickhouse - The only possible counter-argument nagging in my mind is that I'm sure I heard or read somewhere that Duggan only did something like 3 clean jobs in 5 years (87-92) on tv. I find that hard to believe, but then a huge amount of his matches were DQ or CO finishes. If that's true, in one sense he was "pushed". But can anyone recall any Duggan angles or storylines? Only one I can think of is when he started tagging with Slaughter. Duggan always seemed to be positioned as the token loved babyface who the fresh monster heel could do some villainy on before a Hogan feud. Certainly that was his role when Yokozuna came in. Are there Duggan stories that I'm just forgetting here. What meaningful stuff was he given to do in his entire run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Booker T and Chris Benoit. Marty Jannetty in the WWF. La Parka in WCW got good reactions even though he didn't really have any kind of push. D'Lo Brown from mid-1998 (when he won the European Title) to late 1999 seemed really over for a midcard guy who wasn't pushed that whole time. That went away after Russo left and he had the accident with Droz, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Are there Duggan stories that I'm just forgetting here. What meaningful stuff was he given to do in his entire run? He had a fairly heated feud with Harley Race. They had a fun/ridiculous brawl all over the building at the 1987 Slammys. There was a Duggan-Andre angle immediately following WrestleMania IV that led to a B or C-show Main Event run. Duggan beat Haku for the crown in 1989, then dropped it to Savage. There are more. I guess he was pushed a good bit for a while. By 1991 at the latest, he didn't seem to have much going on, but was still super-over, more or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 I think Norman Smiley counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Duggan always seemed to be positioned as the token loved babyface who the fresh monster heel could do some villainy on before a Hogan feud. Certainly that was his role when Yokozuna came in. Duggan even joked about that in his Hall of Fame speech. But he was pushed pretty well out of the gate, winning the first Royal Rumble. He didn't often do clean jobs and when he did, it was against heels receiving sizable pushes. And of course, having a pro-America everyday working man gimmick doesn't hurt in the slightest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Duggan got heat on Andre. Come on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Duggan also tagged with Hogan against Andre and DiBiase on some house shows when that was still a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 1999-2000 WWF is full of examples of workers getting themselves over. 2 Cool, Rikishi and the Hardyz are examples of guys who were over way beyond any push they were given. Jeff Hardy might be the best example actually, a guy who remained hugely over however he was portrayed and who pretty much forced promotions to run with him at the top even though he was fairly unstable personally and couldn't cut an promo to save his life. RVD in 2001 is another perfect example, someone just ridiculously over from the minute he started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 I think with Duggan it might be more accurate to say that he remained over long AFTER his initial push in 87/ early 88. Boogie Woogie Man Jimmy Valiant had that sort of thing too. Still got big pops right at the end. One of the difficulties of this thread is that in many cases when guys get a reaction bigger than their push, they often end up receiving a push as a result of that. Case in point: Sid in 89. He was getting Sting or Road Warrior level pops as Dan Spivey's partner. Elevation to main event was all but inevitable. Come to think it, consistently through his career Sid got face pops when he was positioned as a heel. In 89, in 92, in 96. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted May 31, 2013 Report Share Posted May 31, 2013 One of the difficulties of this thread is that in many cases when guys get a reaction bigger than their push, they often end up receiving a push as a result of that. This is another instance where I thought of Norman Smiley again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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