JerryvonKramer Posted June 30, 2013 Report Share Posted June 30, 2013 This turned out to be quite a monster-long show, but I had a lot of fun putting a list together and looking back on all the stuff we've seen. Just wanted to say that I'm grateful to Chad for agreeing to do these shows with me almost a year ago -- couldn't ask for a nicer or more dedicated guy. It's been great getting to know him as this show has progressed and I'm glad we've managed to come this far. I still don't really understand how he gets through all the footage he does while being married and working a busy job. He's a wrestling-watching phenom, but it's good to know that he's almost always ready and prepared. I feel ready for the 90s now. Will probably be watching the Yearbooks in between shows from here on out, which I'm really looking forward to. Where the Big Boys Play #45 - 80s End of Decade Awards Chad and Parv briefly discuss Jackie Fargo, Matt Bourne and 80s AWA before launching into their end-of-decade awards marathon for Jim Crockett Promotions / NWA. Here are a list of the categories: The Loss award for "Best ring apparel" Best personal hygiene Best woman Best ref Best Manager Best Announcer (play-by-play) Best Announcer (colour) Best Gimmick Worst Gimmick The Total Billy Graham Award for worst wrestler (plus next bottom 4 wrestlers) Most Improved Wrestler Best Feud Best Show Worst Show Best Tag Team Best Face Best Heel Top 20 matches Top 10 wrestlers (plus the Ric Flair Award for Best Wrestler) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted June 30, 2013 Report Share Posted June 30, 2013 Ditto what you said Parv. This has been a great outlet for me and been awesome to revisit this stuff. Onward to the 90's we go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 Downloading this from iTunes (which is taking FOREVER on this connection -- the wi-fi here stinks) so I can listen to it this week while on the beach in the Dominican Republic. Can't wait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpchicago23 Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 Can't wait to listen to this tomorrow at work. The 90s are what I'm more familiar with so I'm excited for that too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 Awesome guys, thanks for the feedback. I am jealous loss, went to the Dominican for our honeymoon and it was the best week of my life. Enjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 This was an epic podcast, and even though there were no real shocks I listened with enthusiasm for the entire show. Chad is def right about the Tommy Young spot, I have no problem with a ref being able to push around a manager or maybe the lowest jobber as a gag, but the world champ should be smarter than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 Thanks Brain as always for being a loyal listener. I think NWA has more polarizing views than most of the other promotions from the area. Hell people are even arguing over whether Flair is good in some corners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 Things I would like to know from listeners of this episode: 1. What are your views on Piper/Valentine and do you think it is generally recognised (i.e. outside of these forums and DVDR) as a great match? 2. Chad surprised me by putting Bobby Fulton on his list at 10 while leaving Arn Anderson out altogether, bearing in mind all the shows and matches we've watched, can you see where he's coming from? 3. What is your take on Flair's character during the Funk feud. This is something of great interest to me -- as I said on the show, it's one feud where it feels like Flair is just sort of there. I think he's a little aloof / ambivalent / oblvious even about the whole thing. 4. Are you generally with us on Garvin or not? This seems to be the biggest thing people disagree with us over outside of PWO. I realise this is a mammoth show by the way, so we might leave a little gap here to give people a chance to listen. Believe it or not, we are trying to cut down on time. It's not working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigelow34 Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 Digging into this now...love Parv tossing shade at Chad about Prince Devitt. Good AWA discussion to open the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 I listened to the first half on the beach today. Great stuff so far. I should compliment you guys on how you've built your rapport with each other over time. You really sound like two friends chatting it up, which is a big positive. I say this in a completely positive way even though it sounds odd to say, but the strong difference in your accents works for whatever reason. Also, congrats to Chad the exposure his writing has gotten recently. JVK, I will answer the questions you posed when I am done with the podcast. The first thing I'd comment on is Garvin/Tully from the Bash '86 comm release, as the high ranking surprised me. That's something I need to check out. Interestingly enough, I've never really heard anything from that particular release talked up much at all. I've never sat down to watch Flair vs Dusty, or if I have it's been ages and I don't remember. I seem to remember some people really liking Flair/Hawk, but it sounds like you've both been down on the Road Warriors overall. I also think Bobby Fulton is a perfectly good Top 10 pick. He was a charismatic guy and had some really terrific high-end matches during a really terrific high-end time period. I'll talk more about Arn after finishing the show. You guys actually like the Flair/Arn/Tully vs Sting/Luger Windham six-man even more than me, although I haven't watched it in a few years, so I might like it more with a rewatch. In fact, aside from the Flair/Garvin cage match where Garvin won the title (which I'm hoping is still to come in the rankings), I haven't really watched any JCP in years. I feel motivated to do so now. A note on the Ric Flair/Jimmy Garvin cage match: I agree that the match comes across REALLY well on the Bash '87 comm. I'm not sure if I should encourage you to seek out the unclipped version that's on Worldwide or not, but it will really ruin that match for you. I used to love it myself and not understand why it didn't have more of a rep. When I watched the full match, it was surprisingly heatless, despite being one of the most emotional matches of the 80s when watching the clipped version. Flair's constant swearing in that match is a riot. Regarding the Tommy Young spot of kicking hands off the ropes, the rules of wrestling are technically that in order to break a hold, wrestlers should be in the ropes, not reaching for them. So ... just reaching out and touching the ropes should not necessitate the breaking of a hold, but getting tangled up *in* the ropes should. I understand the confusion, as that has been so inconsistently enforced through the years that I'm not even really sure anyone knows that rule anymore. Most of the time, just reaching for the ropes is enough to break a hold. That was actually a really weird thing for me with WWF style around the early 00s when submissions actually started getting over as match finishers. Reaching the ropes was valiant and a strong underdog babyface thing to do, when I grew up on wrestling where it was something Ric Flair did as a semi-slimy thing because he wasn't good enough to break the hold through actually wrestling his way out of it. One of many examples of context being so important in wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Only halfway through myself, but I appreciated the shout-out. And that Slaughter/Hansen match was rated where it was mostly because of the editing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Regarding the Tommy Young spot of kicking hands off the ropes, the rules of wrestling are technically that in order to break a hold, wrestlers should be in the ropes, not reaching for them. So ... just reaching out and touching the ropes should not necessitate the breaking of a hold, but getting tangled up *in* the ropes should. I understand the confusion, as that has been so inconsistently enforced through the years that I'm not even really sure anyone knows that rule anymore. Most of the time, just reaching for the ropes is enough to break a hold. That was actually a really weird thing for me with WWF style around the early 00s when submissions actually started getting over as match finishers. Reaching the ropes was valiant and a strong underdog babyface thing to do, when I grew up on wrestling where it was something Ric Flair did as a semi-slimy thing because he wasn't good enough to break the hold through actually wrestling his way out of it. One of many examples of context being so important in wrestling. As someone who grew up on modern WWE, this is one of the most illuminating things I have read in quite some time. I mean I did understand that it was supposed to be the heel trying to take a shortcut by grabbing the rope, but that didn't explain to me why Young would kick them off instead of enforcing the rope break. It comes off like Young is flagrantly disregarding the rules because he doesn't like the heel. But in the context of 'holding the rope' vs 'being IN the ropes', it makes sense. Cheers for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigelow34 Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Regarding Piper/Valentine, I do think it is highly regarded and spoken of. And I think it worked against it, because when I rewatched it to review last year I ended up rating it a bit lower because my expectations were so high heading in. It is a very fun war and I love Valentine working the ear. Interesting debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 There is a lot I want to say after finishing the show, but as a matter of convenience, could each of you post your top 20 lists, honorable mentions, Observer awards, etc.? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 I think the Valentine-Piper match is generally well thought of. I think it's a great match and it seems to hold up to repeated viewings. I never had a problem with the finish. Not sure what this is worth, if anything - it's a match that seems to get over well with non-fans and casual fans. I put it on a tape years ago for a handful of friends that didn't follow wrestling or had a very casual interest. Every single person came back with praise for this match whether they liked anything else or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 There is a lot I want to say after finishing the show, but as a matter of convenience, could each of you post your top 20 lists, honorable mentions, Observer awards, etc.? Thanks. I'm about to head out, but later on I will create a page on the website listing all our choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 My circle of wrestling fans are extremely WWF and 90's on centric, but even they hold the the dog collar match in high regard so yes I would say it's well regarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 I don't think Schiavone would have gotten my vote for an '80s announcer, but he was SO clearly better than Ross in 1991 that I have absolutely no issues with thinking that way. I liked the dog collar finish, too. Valentine was about to drop an elbow from the second turnbuckle, and for 1983 that's a perfectly high-end "big" move for the time, before Piper yanked him off and cradled him up with the chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 The awards are now online: http://jerryvonkramer.ipage.com/podcast/wh...of-year-awards/ Posted here for convenience: Chad's Picks Best special celebrity guest – Lyle Alzado The Loss award for "Best ring apparel" – Miss Atlanta Lively Best personal hygiene – Terry Taylor Best Gimmick – Jim Cornette Worst Gimmick – Ranger Ross Best woman - Baby Doll Best ref – Randy Anderson Best manager – JJ Dillion Best Announcer (play-by-play) – Tony Schiavone Best Announcer (colour) - David Crockett Best Feud - Ric Flair vs. Ron Garvin Most Improved Wrestler – Lex Luger Best Show – Clash of the Champions 1 Worst Show – Bunkhouse Stampede 88 Best Tag Team - Midnight Express (Eaton and Lane) The Total Billy Graham Award for worst wrestler (+ next 4) 1 (worst) Dan Spivey 2. Billy Graham 3. Ranger Ross 4. Jack Victory 5. Paul Jones Best Face - Ric Flair Best Heel – Tully Blanchard Top 10 wrestlers (Ric Flair Award for Best Wrestler) 1. Ric Flair 2. Tully Blanchard 3. Ron Garvin 4. Ricky Steamboat 5. Lex Luger 6. Terry Funk 7. Barry Windham 8. Ricky Morton 9. Bobby Eaton 10. Bobby Fulton Top 20 matches 1. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (Clash 6) 2. Magnum TA vs. Tully Blanchard (Starrcade 85) 3. Ric Flair vs. Ron Garvin (Worldwide 9/26/87) 4. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (Wresltewar 89) 5. RIc Flair vs. Terry Funk (GAB 89) 6. Lex Luger and Barry Windham vs. Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard (Clash 1) 7. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (Clash 9) 8. Roddy Piper vs. Greg Valentine (Starrcade 83) 9. Rock & Roll Express vs Ivan Koloff & Krusher Kruschev (07/09/85) 10. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (Chi Town Rumble) 11. War Games 1: Anderson, Flair, Blanchard, Luger and Dillon vs. Nikita Koloff, Dusty Rhodes, The Road Warriors and Paul Ellering (GAB 87) 12. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (Starrcade 87) 13. Barry Windham vs Tully Blanchard (WCW 01/23/88) 14. Barry Windham vs. Ric Flair (Worldwide 1/24/87) 15. Barry Windham vs. Ric Flair (Crocket Cup 87) 16. Ricky Morton vs. Ric Flair (GAB 7/5/86) 17. Midnight Express vs Fantastics (Pro 03/26/88) 18. Ric Flair, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs Lex Luger, Barry Windham & Sting (Main Event 04/03/88) 19. Tully Blanchard vs. Ricky Steamboat (Starrcade 1984) 20. Ronnie Garvin vs. Tully Blanchard (GAB86) Next Five: Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (Starrcade 88) Ole and Arn Anderson vs. The Rock 'n' Roll Express (Starrcade 86) Midnight Express vs. The Fantastics (Clash 1) Final Conflict Cage Match Nikita/Dusty vs. Tully/Lex (Finals of Crockett Cup 1987) Parv's Picks Best special celebrity guest - Jason Hervey The Loss award for "Best ring apparel" - The Blackmailer Best personal hygiene - Norman the Lunatic Best Gimmick – Ivan Koloff Worst Gimmick – The Dynamic Dudes Best woman - Baby Doll Best ref - Tommy Young Best manager - Jim Cornette Best Announcer (play-by-play) - Jim Ross Best Announcer (colour) - David Crockett Best Feud - Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger Most Improved Wrestler - Steve Williams Best Show – Great American Bash 89 Worst Show – Bunkhouse Stampede 88 Best Tag Team - Midnight Express (Eaton and Lane) The Total Billy Graham Award for worst wrestler (+ next 4) 1 (worst) Billy Graham 2. Dan Spivey 3. Ranger Ross 4. Johnny Ace 5. Flat-top Nikita Koloff Best Face - Ric Flair Best Heel - Terry Funk Top 10 wrestlers (Ric Flair Award for Best Wrestler) 1. Ric Flair 2. Ricky Steamboat 3. Tully Blanchard 4. Ron Garvin 5. Terry Funk 6. Lex Luger 7. Arn Anderson* 8. Barry Windham 9. Bobby Eaton 10. Ricky Morton * Places for Anderson and Luger switched during show. Top 20 matches 1. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (Clash 6) 2. Magnum TA vs. Tully Blanchard (Starrcade 85) 3. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (Chi-town Rumble) 4. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (GAB 89) 5. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (WCW 12/28/85) 6. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (Wrestlewar) 7. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (GAB tour, 07/05/86) 8. Slaughter and Kernodle vs. Steamboat and Youngblood (Final Conflict) 9. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (Clash 9) 10. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (Worldwide 9/26/87) 11. Lex Luger and Barry Windham vs. Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard (Clash 1) 12. Ric Flair, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs Lex Luger, Barry Windham & Sting (Main Event 04/03/88) 13. War Games 1: Anderson, Flair, Blanchard, Luger and Dillon vs. Nikita Koloff, Dusty Rhodes, The Road Warriors and Paul Ellering (GAB 87) 14. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (Starrcade 87) 15. The Fantastics vs. Eddie Gilbert and Ron Simmons (Clash 4) 16. Barry Windham vs Tully Blanchard (WCW 01/23/88) 17. Midnight Express vs Fantastics (Pro 03/26/88) 18. Barry Windham vs. Tully Blanchard (Main Event 04/10/88) 19. Roddy Piper vs. Greg Valentine (Starrcade 83) 20. Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (Starrcade 88) Just missed the cut: Rock & Roll Express vs Ivan Koloff & Krusher Kruschev © (Worldwide 07/09/85) Ricky Steamboat vs. Tully Blanchard (Starrcade 84) Ole and Arn Anderson vs. The Rock 'n' Roll Express (Starrcade 86) Bill Dundee vs. Sam Houston (Starrcade 86) Ronnie Garvin vs. Tully Blanchard (GAB 86) Midnight Express vs. The Fantastics (Clash 1) Midnight Express vs. The Fantastics (GAB 88) Lex Luger vs. Ricky Steamboat (GAB 89) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 The Total Billy Graham Award for worst wrestler (+ next 4) 1 (worst) Dan Spivey 2. Billy Graham It's funny that Billy Graham finished second in the running for his own award. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Soup the Fulton inclusion kinda suprised me. Have you seen the Windham/ Fulton match from the Main Event 88 show. Last time I saw it I really liked it. Windham has always been a stud at doing the underdog match. We've seen it with Scorp and Regal. I'd put the Fulton match right behind those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 If I have seen it before, I have no recollection so it is something I will seek out Shoe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted July 17, 2013 Report Share Posted July 17, 2013 I'm late to the game on this but enjoyed the podcast guys. You've built a rapport that resonates, and it didn't hurt that you were discussing a formative period for my wrestling fandom. As for the discussion questions: 1. I was aware of Piper/Valentine, even as a kid. There always seemed to be pictures of it in the Apter mags or the few wrestling books I owned. And it didn't disappoint when I actually saw it years later. It was my first exposure to bleeding from the ear in a wrestling match, and what better way to win a young man's heart? 2. I don't see a case for Bobby Fulton over Arn but then, I'm not a huge Fantastics fan. Arn was just so damn consistent and so adept at flipping the switch from stooge to badass. He wasn't on Flair or Tully's level in the '80s, but he was the perfect glue guy. 3. I agree that Funk carried the emotional/character side of the Flair feud. But part of the reason the GAB match is so good is that Flair wrestled pissed off, clearly shifting his usual tone to fit the moment. And he also gave a good performance in the "I quit" match as the vengeful guy trying to put a stake in the vampire's heart (though I rate the GAB match a good bit higher). Jerry, maybe you're just not used to Flair being the more subdued character in a feud? Anyway, when it was time for him to bring it in the big matches with Funk, Flair was all there. 4. Totally with you on Garvin. I loved him as a kid, perhaps because I desperately wanted someone to take the belt off Flair, perhaps because I saw Flair and Garvin go broadway in the main event of one of my first NWA shows at the Baltimore Civic Center. I only realized later on that people hated Garvin's title reign. But watching the matches now, I don't think there's any question he was an excellent worker and totally believable in his role as the tough, no-bullshit fighter. I also liked his stuff from the Memphis set and even the '89-'90 matches I've seen from WWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 Only just seen this. Thanks for listening Childs. Loss - we never got your thoughts on Arn ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 The biggest criticism I can make of Arn as a worker in the 90s (and I don't know that this applies in the 80s) is that he cuts a promo where he promises a doomsday scenario for his opponents -- talks of broken bones, hospitals and even morgues -- then works matches that are really solid and enjoyable, but are completely lacking the sense of danger he promised in his interview. I don't feel like his promos adequately set the tone for his matches, even though he's great at both. He was incredible cutting promos in the build for War Games '96, then worked a completely by-the-numbers match once he got in the cage. I wish he backed up what he said a little more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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