JerryvonKramer Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 I think it's fair to say that through out history, company aces have tended to be babyfaces. From Bruno to Hogan to Austin to Cena; from Big Daddy to Jumbo to Jerry Lawler etc. etc., most promotions have thought it wisest to base their fortunes around a guy that the fans cheer. I have been wondering about if it's even possible to have a heel in the role of ace. If it is, how can it be sustained over any period of time? I was thinking about instances where it is at least imaginable that someone might argue that the heel was the ace. I want to put forward 4 test cases: - Flair in Mid-Atlantic / JCP - Bockwinkel in AWA - Hogan in 96-7 WCW - HHH in early 00s WWE I realise there are some crucial caveats with both Flair and Bock being travelling champs, but if they were not the aces of their respective promotions who were? In the AWA case, was Verne really still considered to be ace material before Hogan turned up? I can see pretty strong arguments to suggest that none of these four guys were really "aces", but they are the closest I can think of. Can a heel ace be sustained for a long time? What's the longest a heel has been on top of any company without being turned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 The "ace" of Detroit was The Sheik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 The Sheik was the first guy to come to mind for me as well. Worth noting that he practically salted the earth as far as Detroit was concerned as a wrestling town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 And Hunter saw business go down quite a way as heel ace of WWE. So maybe the reason it isn't usually attempted or sustained for any length of time is that it simply doesn't work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 California in the 60s had heel aces in San Fran (Ray Stevens) and LA (Freddie Blassie), and that worked out pretty well. Rose was heel ace of Portland for 7-8 years and was pretty successful. The Sheik, Bockwinkel, Buddy Rogers, Dick the Bruiser--it used to be fairly common. In the 90s heels became babyfaces, and really the whole structure was changed and has never been reversed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 In the 90s heels became babyfaces, and really the whole structure was changed and has never been reversed. This is really the crux of it. Most top babyfaces before Cena would've been heels in prior decades. Just part of a cultural change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 California in the 60s had heel aces in San Fran (Ray Stevens) and LA (Freddie Blassie), and that worked out pretty well. Rose was heel ace of Portland for 7-8 years and was pretty successful. The Sheik, Bockwinkel, Buddy Rogers, Dick the Bruiser--it used to be fairly common. How did it work though? What's keeping the people going back week in, week out? Let's think about another medium for a while: comic books. A lot of comic books have the structure of a central hero who, week in, week out defeats the latest villain to hatch out their scheme. Batman tackles the Joker this week, the Penguin next week, and maybe during some downtime takes on Calendar Man or some non-costumed mobster. Even though Batman pretty much always wins, the audience still keeps buying the comicbook because they want to see how the latest villainous caper and how he foils it. It's very hard to imagine something like a comic book series following The Penguin devising villainous schemes week in, week out and then getting foiled by different heroes. That just doesn't make sense to me. Penguin does a crime. Hero foils it. Penguin goes away for a while as another villain comes in with their own scheme. Same hero foils it. That makes sense. Penguin does a crime. Hero foils it. Penguin does another crime. Another hero foils it. That seems like topsy turvy world. So how did the heel-led territories work? I guess Portland would be the one people know most about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happ Hazzard Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Lawler was the centrepoint of Memphis as a heel until his comeback from the broken leg in 1981. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Don't forget Wild Bill Longson in St. Louis. On the whole, though, it's pretty rare for reasons that should be obvious. California in the 60s had heel aces in San Fran (Ray Stevens) and LA (Freddie Blassie), and that worked out pretty well. Rose was heel ace of Portland for 7-8 years and was pretty successful. The Sheik, Bockwinkel, Buddy Rogers, Dick the Bruiser--it used to be fairly common. Wasn't Bruiser a babyface in his Indianapolis promotion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 The answer is yes. Hollywood Hulk Hogan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 California in the 60s had heel aces in San Fran (Ray Stevens) and LA (Freddie Blassie), and that worked out pretty well. Rose was heel ace of Portland for 7-8 years and was pretty successful. The Sheik, Bockwinkel, Buddy Rogers, Dick the Bruiser--it used to be fairly common. How did it work though? What's keeping the people going back week in, week out? Let's think about another medium for a while: comic books. A lot of comic books have the structure of a central hero who, week in, week out defeats the latest villain to hatch out their scheme. Batman tackles the Joker this week, the Penguin next week, and maybe during some downtime takes on Calendar Man or some non-costumed mobster. Even though Batman pretty much always wins, the audience still keeps buying the comicbook because they want to see how the latest villainous caper and how he foils it. It's very hard to imagine something like a comic book series following The Penguin devising villainous schemes week in, week out and then getting foiled by different heroes. That just doesn't make sense to me. Penguin does a crime. Hero foils it. Penguin goes away for a while as another villain comes in with their own scheme. Same hero foils it. That makes sense. Penguin does a crime. Hero foils it. Penguin does another crime. Another hero foils it. That seems like topsy turvy world. So how did the heel-led territories work? I guess Portland would be the one people know most about. That isn't really the correct way to make that analogy. The better idea is a comic book series about The Penguin pulling off SUCCESSFUL crimes and occasionally being foiled by the hero of the week. You buy the ticket in hopes of finally seeing the heel ace's definitive downfall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Don't forget Wild Bill Longson in St. Louis. On the whole, though, it's pretty rare for reasons that should be obvious. California in the 60s had heel aces in San Fran (Ray Stevens) and LA (Freddie Blassie), and that worked out pretty well. Rose was heel ace of Portland for 7-8 years and was pretty successful. The Sheik, Bockwinkel, Buddy Rogers, Dick the Bruiser--it used to be fairly common. Wasn't Bruiser a babyface in his Indianapolis promotion? I thought he was a heel for most of the 60s before turning face late in the decade, like Blassie in LA, but looking at some of the info out there, it looks like he was a babyface in Indy, or at least a tweener, since 1964 or so. He did have a long run as top heel in Detroit from the mid/late-50s to about 1963. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 The answer is yes. Hollywood Hulk Hogan. But Jerry was asking about sustainability as well. Hogan was wildly successful as a heel ace for, what, a year-and-a-half, two years tops before it became a contributed-to-the-company's-death-level problem? The answer, as everyone has pointed out already, is The Sheik, but what I want to know is how did he pull it off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 I actually consider 2 1/2 years some impressive longevity in general, but especially in that time period. None of Hogan's contemporaries in the late 90s had an uninterrupted run as the top heel that lasted that long, including Bret, Shawn, Vince or any of the other top wrestlers in WCW. That's not terribly shorter than the Crockett run on TBS or Hogan's first WWF title reign. I guess I consider anything longer than a year "long term". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 California in the 60s had heel aces in San Fran (Ray Stevens) and LA (Freddie Blassie), and that worked out pretty well. Rose was heel ace of Portland for 7-8 years and was pretty successful. The Sheik, Bockwinkel, Buddy Rogers, Dick the Bruiser--it used to be fairly common. How did it work though? What's keeping the people going back week in, week out? Fans wanted to see them get knocked off. June 12, 1961 Blassie over Carpentier August 23, 1963 Bearcat Wright over Blassie Los Angeles basically went two straight years with Blassie and Destroyer as Heel Champs. They did a lot of business. The run "ended" when Bearcat won the title, which did a lot of business... but they shot that in the foot by looking to take the title off Wright. Bock was the champ in the AWA effectively from 1975 to 1984, with the short Gagne run being the only significant break. Within the "AWA", he wasn't a "traveling" champ. The AWA was similar to the WWWF/WWF: it had it's own large territory. Bock would travel outside it, but the vast majority of his job was in the AWA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted July 5, 2013 Report Share Posted July 5, 2013 Mick McManus, to an extent. As well known as the faces from the era... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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