WON HOF 2013 discussion

[jdw]

What did he say about Wagner?

Basically "well he got in, I saw him live and he was okay, but nothing special a all. His kid is better." Obviously not a direct quote but that was essentially the gist of it

 

Sr. was born in 1936. One wonders how old he was when Dave saw him "live", and if it was in any setting to show whether Wagner could work or not.

 

I can't find him on any California cards I have so maybe he just saw him in AJPW. Seems unlikely, doesn't it?

Ángel Blanco and Dr. Wagner won the Americas Tag Title in Los Angeles:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NWA_Americas_...am_Championship

 

Worked a little over a month in LA:

 

http://sportsandwrestling.mywowbb.com/forum2/31391.html

 

It was Jul-Aug, so maybe Dave was down here in the Summer.

 

He may have worked Los Angeles in other years, but I didn't see any in 1976 & 1977 which popped up at the same site.

 

He doesn't appear to have worked for Shire:

 

http://sportsandwrestling.mywowbb.com/forum2/18208-1.html

 

 

 

http://sportsandwrestling.mywowbb.com/forum2/31838.html

 

 

 

Btw, I should have been clearer earlier, me wondering about Maeda and Carnera was more about their respective timeframes as superstars. Maybe at some point people will make a project to determine when which wrestler was a superstar or an ace of a promotion.

Primo was a "name" coming in from Boxing, so kind of a superstar already. Maeda developed into a superstar. Maeda was like Stone Cold: he'd been around a while, then exploded to a different level. The difference between Stone Cold and Maeda is that:

 

* Maeda anchored a smaller promotion prior to that

 

1984-85 UWF 1.0 after leaving NJPW

 

* Maeda was on top as a non-Ace when returning to NJPW

 

1986-87

 

Then Maeda exploded in UWF 2.0, and after that anchored Rings as an Ace.

 

We don't need to go back to Primo.

 

* * * * *

 

Another analogy for Maeda:

 

He's what Sabu, Douglas and Tazzzzz would be collectively if they actually got over to a big degree nationally. A small promotion theoretically with a pot to piss in against to long established national promotions, having no TV themselves, and doing things that neither of them were doing at the time: selling out Budokan, then popping a massive Tokyo Dome crowd.

 

Think of how we'd lose our shit of Sabu or Douglas or Tazzzz sold out MSG (several times), and then sold out the Silverdome... or say popped a PPV number as big as Wrestlemania in 1996 or 1997?

 

That was Maeda. And to a degree Onita. We don't really have a US comp for either of them.

[jdw]

11 people obviously didn't want to get a ballot next year.

The things I've said in this thread are along the lines of what I've posted for a decade, and I still get a ballot. Dave really doesn't care about people having differences of opinion with him when they submit a ballot. More than that, he's listened when I've suggested someone being put on the ballot, and pinged me a couple of times on wrestlers other people have suggested.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

This is as good a place as any to ask, and I may have before, but how do you feel about Tillet John?

[cm funk]

11 people obviously didn't want to get a ballot next year.

The things I've said in this thread are along the lines of what I've posted for a decade, and I still get a ballot. Dave really doesn't care about people having differences of opinion with him when they submit a ballot. More than that, he's listened when I've suggested someone being put on the ballot, and pinged me a couple of times on wrestlers other people have suggested.

 

John

 

I think he's talking about the 11 people who voted for AJ Styles

[jdw]

This is as good a place as any to ask, and I may have before, but how do you feel about Tillet John?

He's always been an interesting candidate. I'm not one who has pushed him, and kind of think that the old summary bio on him needs some more stats / data to help it. The prime is about a 2.5 year run, with a tail of about another 2 years. To get him over it needs to be clearer just how big he was in that run, and where around the country he was drawing big relative to the other top guys.

 

John

[jdw]

11 people obviously didn't want to get a ballot next year.

The things I've said in this thread are along the lines of what I've posted for a decade, and I still get a ballot. Dave really doesn't care about people having differences of opinion with him when they submit a ballot. More than that, he's listened when I've suggested someone being put on the ballot, and pinged me a couple of times on wrestlers other people have suggested.

 

John

 

I think he's talking about the 11 people who voted for AJ Styles

 

That would be funny.

[Robert S]

11 people obviously didn't want to get a ballot next year.

The things I've said in this thread are along the lines of what I've posted for a decade, and I still get a ballot. Dave really doesn't care about people having differences of opinion with him when they submit a ballot. More than that, he's listened when I've suggested someone being put on the ballot, and pinged me a couple of times on wrestlers other people have suggested.

 

John

 

I think he's talking about the 11 people who voted for AJ Styles

 

Bingo! (thought that was obvious, sorry if it wasn't clear)

[ohtani's jacket]

I wonder if we'll get any tidbits on how the Matsunagas ran business. There were five of them, IIRC. I'm assuming Takashi was more than just a Paco Alonso figurehead.

[jdw]

I had suggested "The Matsunaga Brothers" collectively since there were a number of them involved in the business. Dave was going to check with people in Japan to see if one was really the lead of them. I know of at least one native Dave knew well in the mid-90s who dialed into the inner workings of AJW and likely was one he would have checked with.

[puropotsy]

The jury is still out for me on HIS impact on NJ becoming 500% more profitable. Like others have said, right place, right time.

To be fair though, isn't kinda how this sort of thing happens?

 

Isn't that essentially how every wrestling star was created. It's all about being talented but also being in the right promotion at the right time with the right opponents.

 

I agree. If you're not supposed to support someone based on what should have happened for them as in they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, such as some say about Sting, then I find it difficult to hold it against someone for being in the right place at the right time. I think Hogan or Flair would largely succeed if they started now, but they certainly wouldn't be able to do what they did.

[puropotsy]

"Bret vs Taker vs Desiel turned around the WWF's business in 1996. To say it's not a HOF worthy turnaround doesn't cheapen the turnaround. It just says that it wasn't a mind number turnaround."

 

John, could you elaborate on this point? I ask out of interest and not disagreement

The WWF's house show business was the shits when Diesel was champ, continuing a long mostly downward trend since the Hogan-Sid program at the beginning of 1992. House show business went up suddenly when they programed the Bret-Taker-Desiel feud. The related PPV's (Taker vs Bret at the Rumble and Bret-Nash at the Feb IYH) also show growth in buys.

 

People like to give Shawn credit for much of that. Problem is that Mania didn't grow from the prior year, and Shawn-Nash did less than Bret-Nash, and Shawn's PPV buys overall through the year were kind of... well... shitty. Shawn as Champ did continue the house show turn around, and build on it to a decent degree. But...

 

The turn around started with Bret-Taker-Diesel. It then faded eventually under Shawn's watch, and as WCW grew.

 

On a level it's similar to Flair-Savage in WCW that year. The turn around for WCW's long house show issues started with the Savage-Flair program after Starcade. It wasn't lights out business, nor close to what they when they eventually hit their peak. But it was the start.

 

John

 

Thanks John, that's an awesome write-up.

[kjh]

11 people obviously didn't want to get a ballot next year.

The things I've said in this thread are along the lines of what I've posted for a decade, and I still get a ballot. Dave really doesn't care about people having differences of opinion with him when they submit a ballot. More than that, he's listened when I've suggested someone being put on the ballot, and pinged me a couple of times on wrestlers other people have suggested.

 

John

 

I think he's talking about the 11 people who voted for AJ Styles

 

Bingo! (thought that was obvious, sorry if it wasn't clear)

Styles does well on the metric been in a lot of ****+ Meltzer rated matched though.

[Dylan Waco]

There is an interesting and surprising discussion at Classics where a couple of people are presenting Suzuki as a no brainer and JYD as someone who should be one and done. I find that...odd

[jdw]

That should piss people off...

 

*whistling softly*

[ohtani's jacket]

Jim Breaks needs some publicity.

[pantherwagner]

And to reference to a jdw post from a few pages back: poor Cien Caras but if he was paired with his brothers as a trio I think that it would make it even WORSE for him.

With Lucha voters? Why? Add what they've done as a group along with what Universo and Mascara Ano have done to what Cien Caras has done, you'd think it would be a lock. :/

 

I can't imagine the "lucha voters" that don't get Cien Caras in would get the three brothers in as a group. I'd vote for Cien Caras as a single, Hermanos Dinamita as a trio, and I'd have to think about Universo 2000 as a single.

[mookeighana]

I put together a piece today comparing how people finished in Wrestling Observer Awards versus the Hall of Fame: http://indeedwrestling.blogspot.com/2013/1...-wrestling.html.

 

Based on a "prediction" model looking at the scores for people over time (years, points, # of top five finishes in important categories), the top people who aren't in the HOF were:

 

Non-HOF People with Prediction Scores above 0.33

Those strongest candidates are wrestlers Bryan Danielson (0.76), CM Punk (0.61), Sting (0.60), Shinjiro Otani (0.45), Edge (0.42), Mistico (0.41), Samoa Joe (0.38), Sabu (0.37), Brock Lesnar (0.37), Naomichi Marufuji (0.35), William Regal (0.33), Yuji Nagata (0.33), Owen Hart (0.33), and Eddie Gilbert (0.33) whose awards were split between five Best Booker nominations (including one win in 1988) and best heel/brawler/most underrated nods. The non-wrestlers Mike Tenay (WCW/TNA announcer, 0.44), Dana White (UFC promoter, 0.35), Joe Silva (UFC booker, 0.35) and Gabe Sapolsky (ROH/DGUSA booker, 0.38).

 

Some of these people are already on the ballot (Sting, Brock Lesnar, Yuji Nagata, Owen Hart, Edge). Others will be eligible in upcoming years (Bryan Danielson, CM Punk, Mistico). Sabu was eliminated from the ballot in 2010, a fate that originally happened in Sting in 1998 (prior to his return to the ballot following the end of WCW and his in-ring return with TNA). At this time, it's unlikely that Otani, Samoa Joe, William Regal or Eddie Gilbert will be added to the ballot soon.

Also interesting were current HOF members who didn't score highly in the model:

 

HOF Wrestlers with Prediction Scores under 0.33

Joshi legends: Aja Kong, Akira Hokuto, Bull Nakano, Chigusa Nagayo, Dump Matsumoto

Bookers/Promoters: Antonio Pena, Bill Watts, Paco Alonso, Pat Patterson

Managers: Captain Lou Albano

Former Champions: Bob Backlund, Harley Race, Dusty Rhodes, Antonio Inoki, Nick Bockwinkel

Announcers: Dr Alfonso Morales, Gordon Solie

Iconic tag teams: Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey, Stan Lane) and Road Warriors (Road Warrior Hawk & Road Warrior Animal) and Buddy Roberts (Freebirds)

Japanese Stars: Genichiro Tenryu, Hiroshi Hase, Jumbo Tsuruta, Masa Saito, Shinya Hashimoto, Tatsumi Fujinami, Tiger Mask, Masa Chono

Mexican Legends: Dos Caras, Perro Aguayo

80s Stars: Randy Savage, Ricky Steamboat, Dynamite Kid

2005 induction: Triple H (0.29) = continues to play major storyline (and real backstage) role in WWE along with occasional big match wrestler

2004 induction: Ultimo Dragon (0.28) = induction included his legacy as a trainer (Torymon)

2013 induction: Hiroshi Tanahashi (0.28) = after a huge year in NJPW, his score may dramatically rise when 2013 results are included

2013 induction: Kensuke Sasaki (0.12) = has held IWGP, GHC and AJPW Triple Crown titles; at age 47, continues to wrestle for various groups in Japan

2004 induction: Kazushi Sakuraba (0.14) = the famed "Gracie Hunter" prominently achieved MMA success (especially in Pride) alongisde his Japanese pro-wrestling

2009 induction: Konnan (0.15) = continues to have a major role in running AAA along; inducted for legacy of his major success in mid-90s Mexico

EDIT: Fixed Buddy Roberts blurb. Thanks cheapshot!

[cheapshot]

I put together a piece today comparing how people finished in Wrestling Observer Awards versus the Hall of Fame: http://indeedwrestling.blogspot.com/2013/1...-wrestling.html.

 

Based on a "prediction" model looking at the scores for people over time (years, points, # of top five finishes in important categories), the top people who aren't in the HOF were:

 

Non-HOF People with Prediction Scores above 0.33

Those strongest candidates are wrestlers Bryan Danielson (0.76), CM Punk (0.61), Sting (0.60), Shinjiro Otani (0.45), Edge (0.42), Mistico (0.41), Samoa Joe (0.38), Sabu (0.37), Brock Lesnar (0.37), Naomichi Marufuji (0.35), William Regal (0.33), Yuji Nagata (0.33), Owen Hart (0.33), and Eddie Gilbert (0.33) whose awards were split between five Best Booker nominations (including one win in 1988) and best heel/brawler/most underrated nods. The non-wrestlers Mike Tenay (WCW/TNA announcer, 0.44), Dana White (UFC promoter, 0.35), Joe Silva (UFC booker, 0.35) and Gabe Sapolsky (ROH/DGUSA booker, 0.38).

 

Some of these people are already on the ballot (Sting, Brock Lesnar, Yuji Nagata, Owen Hart, Edge). Others will be eligible in upcoming years (Bryan Danielson, CM Punk, Mistico). Sabu was eliminated from the ballot in 2010, a fate that originally happened in Sting in 1998 (prior to his return to the ballot following the end of WCW and his in-ring return with TNA). At this time, it's unlikely that Otani, Samoa Joe, William Regal or Eddie Gilbert will be added to the ballot soon.

Also interesting were current HOF members who didn't score highly in the model:

 

HOF Wrestlers with Prediction Scores under 0.33

Joshi legends: Aja Kong, Akira Hokuto, Bull Nakano, Chigusa Nagayo, Dump Matsumoto

Bookers/Promoters: Antonio Pena, Bill Watts, Paco Alonso, Pat Patterson

Managers: Captain Lou Albano

Former Champions: Bob Backlund, Harley Race, Dusty Rhodes, Antonio Inoki, Nick Bockwinkel

Announcers: Dr Alfonso Morales, Gordon Solie

Iconic tag teams: Midnight Express (Buddy Roberts, Dennis Condrey, Stan Lane) and Road Warriors (Road Warrior Hawk & Road Warrior Animal)

Japanese Stars: Genichiro Tenryu, Hiroshi Hase, Jumbo Tsuruta, Masa Saito, Shinya Hashimoto, Tatsumi Fujinami, Tiger Mask, Masa Chono

Mexican Legends: Dos Caras, Perro Aguayo

80s Stars: Randy Savage, Ricky Steamboat, Dynamite Kid

2005 induction: Triple H (0.29) = continues to play major storyline (and real backstage) role in WWE along with occasional big match wrestler

2004 induction: Ultimo Dragon (0.28) = induction included his legacy as a trainer (Torymon)

2013 induction: Hiroshi Tanahashi (0.28) = after a huge year in NJPW, his score may dramatically rise when 2013 results are included

2013 induction: Kensuke Sasaki (0.12) = has held IWGP, GHC and AJPW Triple Crown titles; at age 47, continues to wrestle for various groups in Japan

2004 induction: Kazushi Sakuraba (0.14) = the famed "Gracie Hunter" prominently achieved MMA success (especially in Pride) alongisde his Japanese pro-wrestling

2009 induction: Konnan (0.15) = continues to have a major role in running AAA along; inducted for legacy of his major success in mid-90s Mexico

 

Very interesting, thanks for taking the time do this though. You may have incorrect data if you look at the MX - you have listed them including Buddy Roberts, as you know, was in the Freebirds. Not sure if it's a typo or will scew your data.

[mookeighana]

I put together a piece today comparing how people finished in Wrestling Observer Awards versus the Hall of Fame: http://indeedwrestling.blogspot.com/2013/1...-wrestling.html.

 

Based on a "prediction" model looking at the scores for people over time (years, points, # of top five finishes in important categories), the top people who aren't in the HOF were:

 

Non-HOF People with Prediction Scores above 0.33

Those strongest candidates are wrestlers Bryan Danielson (0.76), CM Punk (0.61), Sting (0.60), Shinjiro Otani (0.45), Edge (0.42), Mistico (0.41), Samoa Joe (0.38), Sabu (0.37), Brock Lesnar (0.37), Naomichi Marufuji (0.35), William Regal (0.33), Yuji Nagata (0.33), Owen Hart (0.33), and Eddie Gilbert (0.33) whose awards were split between five Best Booker nominations (including one win in 1988) and best heel/brawler/most underrated nods. The non-wrestlers Mike Tenay (WCW/TNA announcer, 0.44), Dana White (UFC promoter, 0.35), Joe Silva (UFC booker, 0.35) and Gabe Sapolsky (ROH/DGUSA booker, 0.38).

 

Some of these people are already on the ballot (Sting, Brock Lesnar, Yuji Nagata, Owen Hart, Edge). Others will be eligible in upcoming years (Bryan Danielson, CM Punk, Mistico). Sabu was eliminated from the ballot in 2010, a fate that originally happened in Sting in 1998 (prior to his return to the ballot following the end of WCW and his in-ring return with TNA). At this time, it's unlikely that Otani, Samoa Joe, William Regal or Eddie Gilbert will be added to the ballot soon.

Also interesting were current HOF members who didn't score highly in the model:

 

HOF Wrestlers with Prediction Scores under 0.33

Joshi legends: Aja Kong, Akira Hokuto, Bull Nakano, Chigusa Nagayo, Dump Matsumoto

Bookers/Promoters: Antonio Pena, Bill Watts, Paco Alonso, Pat Patterson

Managers: Captain Lou Albano

Former Champions: Bob Backlund, Harley Race, Dusty Rhodes, Antonio Inoki, Nick Bockwinkel

Announcers: Dr Alfonso Morales, Gordon Solie

Iconic tag teams: Midnight Express (Buddy Roberts, Dennis Condrey, Stan Lane) and Road Warriors (Road Warrior Hawk & Road Warrior Animal)

Japanese Stars: Genichiro Tenryu, Hiroshi Hase, Jumbo Tsuruta, Masa Saito, Shinya Hashimoto, Tatsumi Fujinami, Tiger Mask, Masa Chono

Mexican Legends: Dos Caras, Perro Aguayo

80s Stars: Randy Savage, Ricky Steamboat, Dynamite Kid

2005 induction: Triple H (0.29) = continues to play major storyline (and real backstage) role in WWE along with occasional big match wrestler

2004 induction: Ultimo Dragon (0.28) = induction included his legacy as a trainer (Torymon)

2013 induction: Hiroshi Tanahashi (0.28) = after a huge year in NJPW, his score may dramatically rise when 2013 results are included

2013 induction: Kensuke Sasaki (0.12) = has held IWGP, GHC and AJPW Triple Crown titles; at age 47, continues to wrestle for various groups in Japan

2004 induction: Kazushi Sakuraba (0.14) = the famed "Gracie Hunter" prominently achieved MMA success (especially in Pride) alongisde his Japanese pro-wrestling

2009 induction: Konnan (0.15) = continues to have a major role in running AAA along; inducted for legacy of his major success in mid-90s Mexico

 

Very interesting, thanks for taking the time do this though. You may have incorrect data if you look at the MX - you have listed them including Buddy Roberts, as you know, was in the Freebirds. Not sure if it's a typo or will scew your data.

 

Well, that was silly of me - wasn't it! Nope, it doesn't change the results at all - that was just some after the fact summarizing mistake I made.

[Timbo Slice]

EDIT: Wrong Thread.

 

That being said, the scores are interesting. Not surprised that Tanahashi and Sasaki had low scores.

[cm funk]

Very interesting mookie!

[Al]

Brock Lesnar at 47% of the vote while still active interests me. He's as good an argument as any as to why the age/experience criteria is way too low. It really feels like we need more perspective on his career before we can fully judge it. But if he's polling this high now, it's probably inevitable he gets in.

 

Different track, but I've read a bit thanks to Hornbaker's book on the Great Gama. He's more myth than someone who is well known, but he's never thrown about as a serious candidate. What's the consensus on him?

[jdw]

And to reference to a jdw post from a few pages back: poor Cien Caras but if he was paired with his brothers as a trio I think that it would make it even WORSE for him.

With Lucha voters? Why? Add what they've done as a group along with what Universo and Mascara Ano have done to what Cien Caras has done, you'd think it would be a lock. :/

 

I can't imagine the "lucha voters" that don't get Cien Caras in would get the three brothers in as a group. I'd vote for Cien Caras as a single, Hermanos Dinamita as a trio, and I'd have to think about Universo 2000 as a single.

 

When Sims said that Hermanos Dinamita would be a lock for him, but Cien wasn't a lock vote for him... :/

[JerryvonKramer]

Brock Lesnar at 47% of the vote while still active interests me.

Is it interesting or just an indictment of the voters? I'm very disillusioned with the WON HoF at this point. Seems like a joke.

[JNLister]

One (very minor) limitation to mookieghana's formula described above is that it doesn't account for performance in the year which somebody gets into the Hall of Fame. I suspect a lot of people who voted for Tanahashi this year were taking at least a little and possible a lot of account of his 2013 work/drawing. That won't be reflected until this year's awards, at which point I suspect his "awards score" will improve dramatically.