Loss Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Will & Charles are joined by Childs Walker to discuss 1991. First, we’ll pay a visit to Memphis where we see the emergence of JC Ice, the Texas vs. Tennessee feud, Eddie Gilbert, Terry Funk, a brief Fabulous Ones reunion and a great in-ring year for Jeff Jarrett. We’ll discuss the top matches and wrestlers in Mexico and Japan with plenty of discussion on the Brazos, Misawa, Kawada, the Three Musketeers and Jushin Liger. Will & Charles have a healthy debate on the merits of joshi as a style and as a form of entertainment. Back in WCW, we discuss the York Foundation, Wargames, Ric Flair leaving and the Dangerous Alliance. Finally, we pay a visit to the WWF with discussions on the Hogan-Slaughter feud, Savage vs. Warrior from Wrestlemania, the great face AND heel runs of Jake the Snake and the debuts of Ric Flair & The Undertaker. An action-packed three hours of discussion. http://placetobenation.com/wrestling-with-...year-in-review/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Hear us try to make sense of our own gender politics and the WWF's take on geo-politics. Yikes. Seriously, though, these yearbook conversations are fun because we get to cover so much ground. No matter what you like, we probably touched on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Also, if you're wondering about that ringing sound on Loss' phone, don't worry, it's gone after the first segment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Looking forward to this, as really enjoyed the 1990 podcast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 I can't agree about that Atlantis/Panther match. To me that's one of the greatest lucha matches of the 90s and the match I'd recommend to people if they want to see actual pure lucha libre. I don't think 1991 has been mined enough for hidden gems. The booking doesn't have the same high points as 1990, but there's been some great stuff pop up randomly on YouTube over the years. I know there's only so much room on these yearbooks, but if you want to see Satanico in '91, for example, he's there in a fair number of trios; he just doesn't always have a central feud, because they were cooling him off and pushing some other guys that year. As for Joshi, I think it's flawed, but the style is deliberate and intentional. The girls wrestled the way they wanted to wrestle. It was a crowd pleasing style that differentiated them from the men and showcased their athletic ability. The problem with the style to me isn't so much its excesses, but that it never evolved. I think when Childs talks about the over-the-top aspects it's a result of them trying to top what they'd already done, which unfortunately meant either going longer and doing even more moves. Anyway, you didn't really touch on the actual year that AJW had. It was very much a transitional year as they tried to path a way forward post-Crush Girls. I would have liked to have heard what Loss thinks of Bull Nakano's run over all. Perhaps he can touch on that when it comes to an end in '92. As for the Scorpion, she worked unmasked towards the end of '91 and then I guess she retired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Glad that weird sound is only for the first segment. Sounded like Loss was on life support. The joshi debate is one of the more interesting conversations I have heard in a podcast. So much in fact, that I don't know where my stance is. I thought the WNBA and NBA thing was a valid analogy but Loss brought up some really astute points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Joshi is not to Japanese men's wrestling what the WNBA is to the NBA. I don't buy that for a second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Great to hear another year in review...I love these and cant wait for a whole set of the 90's (or some 80's and some 90's. etc...) as, for me, its really giving me some back info on the NJPW / AJPW stuff I am watching as well as giving some info on the Lucha stuff I am about to start getting into.. Keep up the great work...I have one complaint....that these arent 4-5 hours each! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Ohtani, I didn't take joshi to mens Japanese wrestling to be a literal translation of the NBA to WNBA thing, just that different ascetics can affect your viewing of a style as a whole.. I do think though that while NBA and WNBA are both basketball games they are not the same thing. Joshi can have a wide variety of different matches and I am a fan of the style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 The implication behind the whole WNBA thing is that women can't play basketball as well as men. It's described on the podcast as being slower and less athletic as the NBA. I think the comparison to Joshi is unfair. For starters, Joshi is criticised for being too fast and in a sense too athletic. And I don't really think the skill level is a huge drop down from the men. You could maybe argue that some of the spots they blow somehow have something to do with a lack of strength but there are sloppy workers like Tenryu who get a pass for their offence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 I agree OJ and I think I made that point on the podcast. My problems with Joshi have nothing to do with a lack of athleticism. If anything, the high-end matches sometimes fetishize athleticism to a damaging point. As for the lucha, I'm sure there's plenty of good stuff that we didn't see. As you said, the yearbooks are surveys by nature. But I'm comfortable saying the best stuff from '91 didn't reach the ridiculous heights of the best stuff from '90. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 First of all, I would submit that Plum Mariko would probably still be alive today if she had decided to become a stripper rather than a wrestler. Setting that aside, there may not be a joshi style, but I think there definitely is an AJW house style that had developed by 1992 or so. The go-go-go doesn't bother me as much as things like holds being applied and then released for no reason, transitions being too abrupt and easy, and a general disregard of long-term selling. I find those things to be pretty universal in AJW, which is why I find that a lot of matches that are pimped as being not typical joshi are in the end very much typical joshi. I've noticed those elements in other promotions as well, but I haven't seen enough non-AJW joshi to make a definitive statement. However, as noted in the podcast, 1991 was kind of a transition year, which means that there are plenty of exceptions. I would suggest Takako Inoue vs. Mariko Yoshida from August 18, which I don't think was on the yearbook, as another example of an atypical joshi match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Most Joshi wrestlers did photobooks and idol videos, and some of them did porn or worked in the sex industry. Joshi came from the nightclubs and is now worked a hop, skip and a jump away from the red light district, so it's not completely removed from the type of objectification that Loss referred to. As for the style, they were working the same style in the 70s. The change has always been in the evolution of moves. You can see workers like Jaguar and Devil Masami raising the bar in the late 70s-early 80s and the trend continuing through to the late 80s classes I think Loss is right that "Joshi" is generally a gender distinction as opposed to a style, but there is a certain workrate style that's synonymous with Joshi and that's generally what people consider it to be regardless of the brawls, mat based matches, worked shoots and other forms of matches. It's most evident in tag matches though it plays a part in singles bouts as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 The joshi debate was interesting but it was really such a small part of the THREE HOUR podcast. I was much more excited discussing Memphis and WCW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happ Hazzard Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Great show but how come you didn't talk about the Cactus Jack vs Eddie Gilbert feud? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 I think we just forgot about it in making the line-up for the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 I love the clips that were interspersed throughout this show. 1991 seems like a really interesting year for the Big 2 with WCW transgressions and WWF having a fairly solid booking year with them taking more chances than they had previously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overbooked Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 Another great show. I thought three hours might be too long, but it flew by and I could have easily listened for longer. I'd completely forgotten about the Savage/Roberts stuff and how out there it was. In hindsight it does feel like a dummy-run for the Attitude era. It is also interesting how protected The Undertaker was, and for how long. It seems like they knew they had hit upon something special, and that slow build helped make the gimmick so durable over the next 20+ years. The Flair/Hogan discussion was fascinating too. I liked the Flair introduction, but they didn't really make as much of it as they could. Even if house shows suggested a lack of interest it still seems bizarre that they didn't go for a big Flair/Hogan match at some point. At the time I experienced non-WWF/WCW wrestling pretty much entirely through Apter mags, so it great to revisit 1991 from this more informed perspective. I can't wait for the 1992 episode - one of favourite years in wrestling. And more interview clips please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 About halfway through this so far, and really enjoying it. I think you hit the nail on the head with Onita, he made a career on 80% facial expressions and 20% bleeding; it worked for him I guess! (I think having bucket-loads of charisma also helped to be fair!) I am looking forward to watching the 1991 yearbook; I have it pencilled in to order at the end of the year after I have gotten through 1990. I am looking forward to the Bill Dundee/Jamie Dundee stuff from Memphis as I haven't seen any of that before as well as Eric Embry being, well, Eric Embry. Things I have learned about Eric Embry recently: He lived in the apparently Sportatorium for a period in 1988 so this may explained his dishevelled look that he sported! I also didn't realise that his career was cut short in 1992. If he was still working do you think that he would of just worked indies until his career petered out, or would he of been able to get the book for someone like SMW? I also like the touch of adding the little sound clips between segments. As always, thanks Will, Charles and Childs for a fun discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 Great show....thanks for more in-depth looks at AJPW and NJPW as well as the other smaller Japan promotions...gives me a few more must see matches to look up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 I would like to say a big thanks for taking the time to do something like this. As a former hardcore who essentially fell out of love with wrestling at the turn of the century, listening to these podcasts and reminded me how much fun wrestling was back in the day. Brings back a lot of ready good memories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Ridge Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 I feel like I've given Joshi a solid chance and I do come away from matches thinking the are excellent. I don't hate Joshi but most of the time I feel indifferent to what is going in the ring. There is just a disconnect for me where I find myself not being able to be emotionally behind most of the performers. The blood doesn't bother me and I completely recognize the wrestlers as great athletes. This quote from NintendoLogic is pretty accurate about how I feel. The go-go-go doesn't bother me as much as things like holds being applied and then released for no reason, transitions being too abrupt and easy, and a general disregard of long-term selling. No heavy time put into GWF? What about IRS tax tips? We didn't get to see the Dragon Master in Memphis so I was hoping one of you could give me a detailed background on this guy! I'm shocked that Loss did not give us his thoughts on Jason Hervey. Only so much time to talk about a full year. Really enjoyed the conversations about WWF the most including Childs ready to join up with Slaughter in the war against Hulkamania. The Roberts stuff was great discussing his year as both face and heel. Loved the audio being included of Earthquake squashing Damien. I felt like Flair leaving for WWF probably could have been a whole show in itself. Another fun show and I like the ideas for future shows based on wrestling in specific cities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Kevin, We already recorded the first show with a special guest. Look for it in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Kevin, We already recorded the first show with a special guest. Look for it in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Ridge Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Sarah Palin and Will following the bridge to nowhere in Alaska to watch an AWA show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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