shoe Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 I think Steamboat is one of the most underrated promos ever, re-watching early 90's WCW and he's one of the best talkers in the company. I wouldn't go that far, but I thought he was good. I think he really started to find his groove a bit in 89 when he was feuding with Luger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 I was pondering earlier, which wrestlers people feel would of moved up a tier or two as an overall great, or even reached GOAT status if only they could cut a decent promo. They might be workers whom are over with the crowd, who put on great matches, with great charisma but just don't cut it when it comes to interviews and on camera speaking. People to me who fall into this criteria include: Jeff Hardy, Lex Luger, Booker T, Ultimate Warrior, Goldberg, Bobby Lashley, RVD, Ken Patera, Brock Lesnar and Ken Shamrock I am not sure if I'd include Benoit as he is already considered a GOAT candidate, but if he was great on the mic would he of been a no brainer for Top 5 of all time? I'm sorry? They are not that good, and it's not because of poor mic skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Also part of Goldberg's appeal was that he was a killer. Him being a good talker meant 0 at the box office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 I would never put Sting as a GOAT candidate, but he would move up the chart if he could of cut a decent promo. He was terrible. I haven't seen much of his TNA run, so hopefully he improved. He actually did turn into a pretty decent promo in TNA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted October 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 I was pondering earlier, which wrestlers people feel would of moved up a tier or two as an overall great, or even reached GOAT status if only they could cut a decent promo. They might be workers whom are over with the crowd, who put on great matches, with great charisma but just don't cut it when it comes to interviews and on camera speaking. People to me who fall into this criteria include: Jeff Hardy, Lex Luger, Booker T, Ultimate Warrior, Goldberg, Bobby Lashley, RVD, Ken Patera, Brock Lesnar and Ken Shamrock I am not sure if I'd include Benoit as he is already considered a GOAT candidate, but if he was great on the mic would he of been a no brainer for Top 5 of all time? I'm sorry? They are not that good, and it's not because of poor mic skills. I never said those listed above are good, I said "They might be workers whom are over with the crowd, who put on great matches, with great charisma but just don't cut it when it comes to interviews and on camera speaking." And then I listed people to me who fall into this category. This topic and the examples were made to evoke a discussion, that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted October 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Also part of Goldberg's appeal was that he was a killer. Him being a good talker meant 0 at the box office. He was a killer, agreed, and him not talking added to his aura. However, post Starrcade '98 he needed to be less one dimensional, and I feel if he was a great talker he wouldn't of fallen from grace and become just another guy as quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Scott Steiner was always one who could look like a million quid but talked like £2.50 I missed that one. Scott Steiner was poor promo ("Me an' my brother") but Big Poppa Pump was a riot, and his mic skills were an important part of the appeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Also part of Goldberg's appeal was that he was a killer. Him being a good talker meant 0 at the box office. He was a killer, agreed, and him not talking added to his aura. However, post Starrcade '98 he needed to be less one dimensional, and I feel if he was a great talker he wouldn't of fallen from grace and become just another guy as quickly. I agree he needed to be less one dimensional, and I enjoyed him more than way, but him being a poor promo (which he wasn't, he actually got pretty solid) isn't the reason why he became another guy. Idiotic booking is what killed his aura. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted October 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Also part of Goldberg's appeal was that he was a killer. Him being a good talker meant 0 at the box office. He was a killer, agreed, and him not talking added to his aura. However, post Starrcade '98 he needed to be less one dimensional, and I feel if he was a great talker he wouldn't of fallen from grace and become just another guy as quickly. I agree he needed to be less one dimensional, and I enjoyed him more than way, but him being a poor promo (which he wasn't, he actually got pretty solid) isn't the reason why he became another guy. Idiotic booking is what killed his aura. I think if he was a stronger promo over in WWE his impact MAY of been greater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Also part of Goldberg's appeal was that he was a killer. Him being a good talker meant 0 at the box office. He was a killer, agreed, and him not talking added to his aura. However, post Starrcade '98 he needed to be less one dimensional, and I feel if he was a great talker he wouldn't of fallen from grace and become just another guy as quickly. I agree he needed to be less one dimensional, and I enjoyed him more than way, but him being a poor promo (which he wasn't, he actually got pretty solid) isn't the reason why he became another guy. Idiotic booking is what killed his aura. I think if he was a stronger promo over in WWE his impact MAY of been greater. Vince McMahon didn't want to put Goldberg over and Triple H didn't want Goldberg to get over at his expense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 The whole appeal of Goldberg was that during the Monday Night Wars, everyone was out there cutting these long-winded promos and Goldberg would go out, kick ass in two minutes and leave. It made him a star. The guy should have left wrestling never speaking a word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted October 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 The whole appeal of Goldberg was that during the Monday Night Wars, everyone was out there cutting these long-winded promos and Goldberg would go out, kick ass in two minutes and leave. It made him a star. The guy should have left wrestling never speaking a word. I disagree completely. This would only work really until his first defeat, after that his character would really need to be more than a one dimensional killer. Characters need to grow and evolve. You couldn't have Goldberg doing 2 minute squashes forever and not expect it to grow stale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 It would have eventually grown stale. Then he could have moved down the card or left wrestling or whatever. It would simply mean his run was over. Everything ends at some point because every single idea in wrestling has limitations to it. Goldberg isn't unique there. I don't see the need to reinvent him in a less effective role simply to make the writers feel smart. It was simple and it hadn't showed any signs of getting old when the WCW bookers started playing around with it. Remember how lame it was every time bookers tried to make the Road Warriors more dimensional? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted October 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 It would have eventually grown stale. Then he could have moved down the card or left wrestling or whatever. It would simply mean his run was over. Everything ends at some point because every single idea in wrestling has limitations to it. Goldberg isn't unique there. I don't see the need to reinvent him in a less effective role simply to make the writers feel smart. It was simple and it hadn't showed any signs of getting old when the WCW bookers started playing around with it. Remember how lame it was every time bookers tried to make the Road Warriors more dimensional? The attitude of using someone who, until they aren't effective in that role is good in a perfect world, but as you are aware, bookers, writers, whomever try and squeeze as much life out of a character until the character is a negative. Especially someone who was as HOT as Goldberg, in the 90's there was no way they would of just let him move down the card or not renew his contract. I think you are looking at it idealistically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Is this a topic about great workers who were lousy promos, or a topic about wrestlers who were good in the ring who didn't meet their potential as stars because of their lack of promo skills? Because Steamboat had a great career, and I fail to see what might have been better if he was a better promo. Bobby Eaton was booked in a way that played to his strengths for most of his prime. He's also a guy who early 80s Memphis footage shows was perfectly okay as a talker, so I'm not sure he belongs in this category. I think the cool thing about not everyone being Ric Flair, Jerry Lawler or The Rock is that Ric Flair, Jerry Lawler and The Rock stand out in large part because of this. I'm not a fan of any form of entertainment where everyone always has a perfectly worded witty comeback in every situation, because that's not life. We stumble over our words. Some of us can light up a room and some of us can't. I saw Booker T mentioned. He's an interesting choice since he developed catchphrases that got him over. I saw Jeff Hardy mentioned. I'm not sure blowjob babyface tag teams really need to do great promos. That's the responsibility of their heel opponents. The Von Erichs weren't great promos, but people believed what they were saying. Steamboat wasn't a great promo but people believed what he was saying. I guess in an environment post-1998 where the backstage vignettes and 20-minute verbal duels are pushed as an attraction in and of themselves instead of a means to hype a grudge being settled in the ring, there's more value in being able to talk than there used to be. But even then, a writer is providing the lines for each wrestler, who simply has to recite them in a way that sounds halfway convincing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 It would have eventually grown stale. Then he could have moved down the card or left wrestling or whatever. It would simply mean his run was over. Everything ends at some point because every single idea in wrestling has limitations to it. Goldberg isn't unique there. I don't see the need to reinvent him in a less effective role simply to make the writers feel smart. It was simple and it hadn't showed any signs of getting old when the WCW bookers started playing around with it. Remember how lame it was every time bookers tried to make the Road Warriors more dimensional? The attitude of using someone who, until they aren't effective in that role is good in a perfect world, but as you are aware, bookers, writers, whomever try and squeeze as much life out of a character until the character is a negative. Especially someone who was as HOT as Goldberg, in the 90's there was no way they would of just let him move down the card or not renew his contract. I think you are looking at it idealistically. I am looking at this idealistically because the premise of the thread was an idealistic one. I hope I'm not coming across as a jerk. I'm not trying to be one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted October 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Is this a topic about great workers who were lousy promos, or a topic about wrestlers who were good in the ring who didn't meet their potential as stars because of their lack of promo skills? Because Steamboat had a great career, and I fail to see what might have been better if he was a better promo. Bobby Eaton was booked in a way that played to his strengths for most of his prime. He's also a guy who early 80s Memphis footage shows was perfectly okay as a talker, so I'm not sure he belongs in this category. I think the cool thing about not everyone being Ric Flair, Jerry Lawler or The Rock is that Ric Flair, Jerry Lawler and The Rock stand out in large part because of this. I'm not a fan of any form of entertainment where everyone always has a perfectly worded witty comeback in every situation, because that's not life. We stumble over our words. Some of us can light up a room and some of us can't. I saw Booker T mentioned. He's an interesting choice since he developed catchphrases that got him over. I saw Jeff Hardy mentioned. I'm not sure blowjob babyface tag teams really need to do great promos. That's the responsibility of their heel opponents. The Von Erichs weren't great promos, but people believed what they were saying. Steamboat wasn't a great promo but people believed what he was saying. I guess in an environment post-1998 where the backstage vignettes and 20-minute verbal duels are pushed as an attraction in and of themselves instead of a means to hype a grudge being settled in the ring, there's more value in being able to talk than there used to be. But even then, a writer is providing the lines for each wrestler, who simply has to recite them in a way that sounds halfway convincing. My original concept of the topic was to discuss people who IF they were better promo's would be considered a higher tier wrestler or even going to GOAT levels. I used rough examples of Jeff Hardy, Booker T et al. just as examples. I think you have raised good points about if everyone was like The Rock or Lawler then the Rock's and Lawler's of this world wouldn't stand out. I think Jeff Hardy in tags didn't need to be a great promo, originally they had Hayes for that. But as a single, I think people would of looked at him in higher regarding if he was a better promo. That's just my opinion however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 I saw Booker T mentioned. He's an interesting choice since he developed catchphrases that got him over. Having two catchphrases doesn'te mean you're a good promo though. Booker was a decent promo with two catchphrases. And a rather mediocre (if not poor) worker most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 It doesn't, but I would call Booker T an unproven promo more than I would call him good or bad. We never really saw him in a feud where he was asked to deliver a serious promo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Come on, this shampoo feud had everything going for money promos... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 The whole appeal of Goldberg was that during the Monday Night Wars, everyone was out there cutting these long-winded promos and Goldberg would go out, kick ass in two minutes and leave. It made him a star. The guy should have left wrestling never speaking a word. "You're next !" was very efficient though. And the two minutes matches got boring to me very quickly unless the jobber was a special guy who could make it fun. After a while, you want more. It doesn't mean Goldie should have been beaten of course, but as he was getting more comfortable in competitive matches, it was fun to see him with more difficult opponents. Going back to the streak and two minutes jobs in 2000 did nothing for him, it was too late. More than killing everyone in two minutes, the appeal of Goldie is that he never lost. Like, Hulk Hogan or something. Damn, that was hard to figure out for those genius in WCW, who *never* put the belt back on him after Nash got his jerk-off streal killing win. It's amazing to see how they continuously fucked things up with him for two years after Starrcade 98. Amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Rather controversially, I'm going to say Bob Backlund in his original run. We all know Backlund had the abiltiy to talk and he was great in that heel run as Mr. Backlund. Unfortunately, from watching from January to December 79 now, he shows very little charisma in his promos as a babyface. A part of this is the status quo of the time: babyfaces tended to be soft-spoken and stoical, a la comatose Chief Jay Strongbow. A lot of babyfaces cut those bland promos then: see also DiBiase, Steamboat, and even Flair as a babyface. It was the default mode. But the period also saw the likes of Dusty. Bruno was a pretty decent promo. Looks like Pat Patterson as a babyface is set to cut great promos. My main problem is that Backlund's character as a promo doesn't match his fired-up character in the ring. If only he could have injected more energy and determination into what he was saying. Taking everything into account, I think Backlund is one of the people where the perception of him has hurt how people think of him in general more than almost anyone else. I don't know that he was a blow-away great worker, but if he'd have been a better promo, I wonder if he'd be more fondly remembered as an "all-time great"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Some more Golberg. To me the character was a draw. If suddenly he's this great talker I don't know if he would have drew more money. If anything it hurts his aura. His aura and intesity, booking help, and look made him a star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alucard Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 I know he wasn't a great promo but I liked some of Jeff Hardy's mic work in 08-09 when he got the main event push. Particularly one with Taker and his first post-title win promo. Also agreed with those who liked Luger's promos as well as Warrior. And yeah Lesnar's recent stuff ruled, the video promo building up the Punk match was great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Ewiak Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 To being up what other people mentioned, if the Sting of the 90's had the mic skills of TNA Sting, it might not be a question of whether or not he belongs in the WO HOF or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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