Wrestlemania IV title picture

[Migs]

When did the tournament become the plan for the show?

 

Because one way to do Wrestlemania would be to let Andre giving Dibiase the belt be seen as acceptable, and then Hogan or Savage (more likely Savage, since Hogan did have the movie) could go over Dibiase at Wrestlemania. They could do Hogan-Andre in a cage as the undercard as the blowoff to that feud, although query whether that match so obviously overshadows the World Title match that it has to go on last, thus screwing with Savage's position. (Of course, you could argue this happened anyway, even with the tournament. On the box for the video version, Hogan and Andre are the ones on there, not Savage or Dibiase).

 

In the above scenario, one way you set up Savage as the challenger would be by having him go over HTM, as the IC Champ was always technically the top contender to the World Belt. So Dibiase would keep the belt but Tunney forces him to defend against the top contender at WM. I'd guess you'd go to an IC Title tournament.

 

An IC Title tournament would be really interesting in this universe because Beefcake claims he was promised the title at Summerslam before Vince changed his mind and went with Warrior. But if there's a post-WM tournament - do they put Beefcake over? If so, what happens to Warrior? Or do they put the belt on a heel and a similar story plays out at Summerslam?

[Migs]

Does that mean Savage was originally double booked to be in the tourney AND the IC title match?

I would imagine the plan would have been Savage as IC champ taking part in the tournament.

 

One point that sticks with me - I don't understand what the point would have been to give Savage the IC Title. He clearly didn't need it. He needed to destroy Honky Tonk, but he got to do that on the Main Event. Going back to fall of '87, they were linking up Savage and Hogan, which makes it seem clear that Savage was likely to be involved in any post-WM program with Dibiase. It seems obvious that there were only 2 possible tournament outcomes:

 

1) Dibiase wins the belt. If that happens, and Savage is IC Champ feuding with him, you deprive the B-shows of an IC Title main event. Considering how Vince relied heavily on the IC Title feud for that purpose in this time frame, that seems highly unlikely. I guess you could do Savage-Andre on the B shows and Dibiase v. someone else on the A shows, but who is that someone else? Bigelow? He was in tag matches with Hogan against Andre and Dibiase, but it seemed like they soured on him quickly.

 

This to me is one of the bigger issues with the idea that there was ever a plan to have Dibiase come out as champion, which was changed because HTM refused to job. Once they know Hogan is taking time off, the direction on top seems most likely to be Savage-Dibiase, in which case there's no likelihood they put the IC belt on Savage during that feud.

 

2) Savage wins the title, setting up an IC Title tournament. But if the plan is for Savage to win, what benefit does he get from having the belt? Maybe the idea is to put Savage over strong as the first ever double champ? They did try something similar with Warrior two years later.

[JerryvonKramer]

The more I think about this, the more the idea of DiBiase winning the tournament seems absurd. You build up a super-villain for months, he's hatched one of the most evil and dastardly plans of all time (evil twin ref angle at Main Event), he's been a total prick for weeks buying out swimming pools and bitching out fans ... and then at WM after a boring-ass 4-hour tournament he wins the belt too?!

 

I can't see that at all.

 

I actually think that when Ted was promised the title, they promised it to him with the buying the title angle in mind but hadn't worked out the details yet. Can you see DiBiase really giving a shit about whether it goes in the record books? In 87 all it would have needed was "main event angle with Hogan ... oh and you'll have one of the best gimmicks of all time as well".

 

I'd need to go back and have a look but Ted's always been pretty vague about the HTM deal in shoots. Does anyone know if he goes over this in his book?

[Matt D]

To send a message to Ted, please do so on Twitter at @MDMTedDiBiase or on Facebook at Facebook.com/MDMTedDiBiaseOfficial

Go get him, Parv.

[BrickHithouse]

Was he just promised the title to get him to sign in the first place? Ted can't be the only guy Vince promised the belt to and then not deliver.

[Guest The Jiz]

The more I think about this, the more the idea of DiBiase winning the tournament seems absurd. You build up a super-villain for months, he's hatched one of the most evil and dastardly plans of all time (evil twin ref angle at Main Event), he's been a total prick for weeks buying out swimming pools and bitching out fans ... and then at WM after a boring-ass 4-hour tournament he wins the belt too?!

 

I can't see that at all.

 

I actually think that when Ted was promised the title, they promised it to him with the buying the title angle in mind but hadn't worked out the details yet. Can you see DiBiase really giving a shit about whether it goes in the record books? In 87 all it would have needed was "main event angle with Hogan ... oh and you'll have one of the best gimmicks of all time as well".

 

I'd need to go back and have a look but Ted's always been pretty vague about the HTM deal in shoots. Does anyone know if he goes over this in his book?

That too, as DiBiase probably made 8x as much headlining against Hogan than he did headlining in Mid South.

[JerryvonKramer]

Plus his travel and accommodation paid for, plus a "spending allowance". Everybody's got a price ...

[flyonthewall2983]

Is Ted still affiliated with WWE after Jr. left?

[jdw]

Loss wrote up the WON's that covered the stories in real time. Extractions from Loss' posts and links to them:

 

WON 01/18/88

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=6369

-- It's official. The WWF's first primetime special will be on 2/5/1988 from 8pm to 9pm and Dave is told it will be shot live, from the Market Square Arena in Indianapolis. Top matches announced are Hulk Hogan vs Andre the Giant, Honky Tonk Man vs Randy Savage, and Hart Foundation vs Strike Force. [...] The plan is to set up the big angles for Wrestlemania, which means Hogan probably won't pin Andre. But Dave says the challenge is still to do a good and memorable finish, but that also the ending has to be a major fluke, as Hogan matches usually have less interest the second time around. Meltzer says Hogan vs Ted DiBiase at WM is certainly a possibility, but he thinks holding up the title is a stronger possibility, because they have to end the show with Hogan posing, and Hogan can't pose if he loses the belt. Meltzer also says Andre beating Hogan won't mean much, and that regardless of the finish, Andre will look strong, Hogan will find Andre's weakness, and then they'll go right to the finish. This will be the first time Andre has been in the ring since Wrestlemania III for longer than 70 seconds.

WON 01/25/88

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=6382

-- The pressure is on Hogan and Andre. They can't have a good match because of Andre's condition, so they need a good finish. Dave again states Hogan can't win cleanly because it would kill Wrestlemania, and it would take at least another year to build someone up as strong as they've built up Andre. Andre going into WM as champion has been talked about, but concern is there about it hurting Hogan, since the public is fickle, and why take the belt off Hogan at all if the public is into it?

WON 02/01/88

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=6463

-- Dave says everyone is asking him to predict the finish of Hogan/Andre so here's his guess, because he doesn't know the finish: "DiBiase will interfere and Andre will pin Hogan on 2/5; however, Jack Tunney will prove he can't be bought and hold the title up so Ted doesn't get the title, and order a rematch in a cage at WM4 so Ted can't interfere (and also so Andre can lose without doing a job). Hulk will win on a fluke, and they'll run Hulk vs Andre over the summer in your local cities after the Hulk gets back from playing Hulk Hogan in the movies."

WON 02/08/88

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=6527

-- The WWF will decide on exactly which finish they're going with in Hogan/Andre as soon as they know the shooting schedule of No Holds Barred. If he's available on weekends, he will be champion over summer. If he won't be available at all for several months, expect DiBiase to get the title.

WON 02/15/88

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=6565

-- Dave just raves and raves about the finish to the Hogan/Andre match on NBC, saying that he hopes whoever came up with that finish got a nice bonus in their paycheck. He's so impressed because he says it's like they thought of everything -- they found a way to get the belt off of Hogan to do a job, Andre wasn't hurt, Wrestlemania was set up, and the nature of the angle was so shocking that it didn't set off a fan riot, which was at one point a concern about taking the belt off of Hogan.

WON 02/22/88

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=6614

-- "As most of you already know, the biggest story of the week concerns the WWF holding a tournament for the vacated WWF title as the headline attraction at Wrestlemania IV on 3/27 eminating (sic) from Atlantic City. The announcement was made on the syndicated package over this past weekend, and from what I'm told, the entire card will be released publicly by next week..."

 

-- The first round has been announced as Roberts vs Rude, Muraco vs Bravo, Steamboat vs Valentine, Reed vs Savage, Bigelow vs Gang and DiBiase vs Duggan, with Hogan vs Andre getting an automatic bye to the second round. "The brackets pretty well should tell the obvious story. There are only two possible winners, Hulk Hogan or Ted DiBiase. The bottom line is that down the road, Hulk Hogan is going to be champion once again." Dave says if Hogan's upcoming movie filming, which begins in April, won't allow him time to wrestle over summer, or if he wants to take off since his first child is due in April, then it makes no sense if he's not going to be around to defend the belt. Also, if Hogan isn't going to win the tournament, the winner has to be a heel so that person can drop the belt back to Hogan. Dave says it's obvious based on bracketing that DiBiase will make it to the finals, either to lose to Hogan or beat Muraco. Dave then goes into really, really detailed predictions on the show. The most interesting prediction is that he thinks Savage and Steamboat will be rematched and go to a draw to create a bye for DiBiase into the finals.

 

-- "Probably the most bizarre story revolves around last Friday's NBC special. Apparently an Intercontinental title change was in the script and the match was supposed to be shorter as well, however Honkeytonk Man vetoed the script and there was lots of backstage commotion about it, but the bottom line was, he held out and refused to do the job and he's still champion today. If you wonder why they just didn't have Randy beat him anyway which is something that gets threatened from time-to-time especially in the old days of wrestling, is simply because Honkey must have realized that there was no chance whatsoever McMahon would take any chances on a bad situation occurring on live television and the last thing he ever wants is real violence. That probably explains why Honkeytonk Man, as IC champ, isn't in the tournament."

WON 02/29/88

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=6921

-- The Wrestlemania IV card has been finalized. In addition to the tournament, Honky Tonk Man will defend the IC title against Brutus Beefcake, and Dave expects a title change in this match, if not before then. "Even though the word I heard is that Honky isn't in line for punishment, I find it hard to believe that an example won't be made of him quickly for his refusal to drop the strap to Randy Savage on the NBC broadcast." [...]Dave says Robin Leach being hyped as presenting the winner with the championship belt seems to be a strong indication that they want people think DiBiase is winning.

WON 03/07/88

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=7101

-- Hulk Hogan will be gone after Wrestlemania to film his movie, so he isn't being talked about as someone who will win the tournament. The talk was DiBiase for weeks, but it's known, and Dave agrees, that he can't draw as champion. Dave says it may not matter, because the WWF usually can't draw after Wrestlemania anyway. WM4 may also be profitable enough that they can lose money all summer and still come out ahead. "It's kind of a shame, but there is no question that DiBiase's gimmick is over, but his wrestling ability isn't over. The casual fan doesn't see DiBiase as a great wrestler, in fact, they don't even see him as a good wrestler. While one could make the case that his vulnerability would make him a draw as champion (fans will show up thinking that Savage, Bigelow, Steamboat, etc. can win the title because Ted is beatable) the bottom line is that the belt has no drawing power. While the WWF belt is the 'most over' title in wrestling, people have seen so many champions and so many championship matches that seeing a title change, even a WWF title change, will do very little to up the gate. DiBiase didn't draw in his one week dry run as champion in California (traditionally Titan's hottest corner of the U.S. aside from the Northeast), and his main event last Monday at the Garden with Bam Bam Bigelow drew the smallest MSG crowd in years. Still, nobody but Hogan himself is going to sellout buildings this summer."

 

-- Dave says because of this, Randy Savage's name is now being mentioned, meaning Savage would have to knock DiBiase off in the semifinals and meet a heel like Andre, Rude or Bravo in the finals. Dave predicts Bravo will go out of the tournament in the first round, and Andre making it to the finals would have to work three times, so that's not happening. So he predicts Savage vs Rude in the finals, with Savage going over. Dave says if they can figure out a way to get Andre into a match where he can do a job for Savage, they'll have succeeded in getting over another babyface at the Hogan level, which would make a lot of sense, but Savage couldn't hold the belt for long because Hogan has to be champ when he comes back, since he'll be promoting a movie.

 

-- Dave says the latest WWF magazine is showing different brackets than are being shown on television, and from the looks of the bracketing in the magazine, it's possible Savage vs DiBiase will be the final match in the tournament, which means DiBiase would have to face the winner of Hogan/Andre in the semifinals. He predicts Hogan beating Andre, leading to a half dozen guys attacking Hogan, causing a forfeit and allowing DiBiase to win and advance to the finals against Savage.

WON 03/14/88

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=7117

-- Dave says Hogan, Savage and DiBiase are the only possible winners of the tournament at this point, and that while most people think Savage or DiBiase, he doesn't think you can rule Hogan out, although he has a lesser chance than the other two.

 

-- Dave says because the bracketing has changed, something has gone "afoul" in their original plans, and he isn't sure what.

WON 03/21/88

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=7331

-- Dave starts by making his predictions for Wrestlemania IV, first giving the disclaimer that he doesn't know any of the results, and if he did, he wouldn't make any predictions. Hogan, Savage, and DiBiase are the only ones Dave gives any chance of winning, and no one else in the tournament is strong enough to carry the title, "or have problems from their past that Titan is afraid of coming out should they be placed in the public spotlight." Dave is able to make some eliminations based on the fact that they have already done their first post-WM TV taping, and Andre the Giant, Hacksaw Duggan, Butch Reed, Don Muraco, and Bam Bam Bigelow were all there, with none of them wearing the belt. Jake Roberts, Greg Valentine, One Man Gang, and Dino Bravo can be ruled out because they aren't really pushed that hard and he suspects they won't make it past the first round. Rude and Steamboat are guys who he sees having more than one match, but obviously not winning. The brackets were changed to ensure Savage in the finals recently. Also, the latest issue of WWF Magazine, weeks before the show mind you, has a photo of Elizabeth, accompanied by the caption: "Elizabeth, manager of the World Wrestling Federation Champion Randy 'Macho Man' Savage." Dave wonders if this is a red herring, a misprint, bad proofreading, or a clue. Dave also got a letter from a reader who insists at the previous Wednesday's TV taping that he looked through the curtain and saw Savage doing a promo while carrying the belt. "So much for the honor of kay-fabing the public. His final prediction is Savage, because he says if he's wrong, so are a lot of other people.

 

-- Regarding HTM/Beefcake, Dave guarantees this match won't win any MOTY honors. "Honkeytonk has bizarre talents, but none of them have anything to do with wrestling (that sometimes forgotten art form of putting together exciting pro style matches)." Dave says Beefcake has no talent he has ever been able to find, and he's been watching him for years. Dave thinks he's a teacher's pet, but also says that the Barber gimmick is one that has gotten him more over than anyone would have expected. Dave says the main clue of a title change is that the scheduled Honky Tonk Man Coliseum Video release has been replaced with a Beefcake video, and that it's well known that HTM is in the doghouse for refusing to job at the NBC taping on 2/5. Dave predicts HTM "will no longer be the worst Intercontinental champion of all time. Then again, I remember Pedro Morales ..."

WON 03/28/88

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=7344

-- "DING DING DING. Don't read anymore on this page if you want to be surprised at Wrestlemania." He then talks about DiBiase working two matches at the post-WM TV taping without the belt, while Savage didn't appear at all on either taping, which makes Savage winning a lock. The Savage/Liz WWF magazine thing mentioned last week was picked up by the Associated Press. Dave has been told the magazine cover was printed by mistake and Titan is furious about the results being public knowledge. Also, on the same TV taping, Beefcake was there without a belt, HTM was there with his belt, and Jimmy Hart had a bonnet to hide his hair, which means Jimmy Hart is losing his hair, but HTM is not losing his title.

WON 04/04/88

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=7352

-- Too many people knew the outcome. On ABC news the morning after the show, it said, "Randy Savage was the winner at Wrestlemania, but of course everyone knew it since the WWF magazine had printed the result three weeks ago. The WWF claims the magazine report was simply a typographical error." Dave says he was at the beach Saturday, and he talked to a few fans who aren't newsletter readers at all, but simply casual fans who he doesn't even "talk smart" to ("I don't insult their intelligence either"), and they all knew Savage was winning. "It was pathetic. I'm sorry to go on a tirade at this point, but I'm sick to death of narrow-minded folks blaming me because their promotions aren't interesting enough to draw fans at live gates. If everyone who read this newsletter quit watching matches tomorrow, pro wrestling interest would drop 0.002 percent. In reality, the fans who read newsletters support this business probably in 20 or 30 times greater the proportion than the so-called 'marks' and if this business was to die (which it won't, and I'm not predicting anything of the sort), they'd be the last ones killed off. Again, I'm sorry for the tirade but it's been building up lately. However, for Titan to give away the endings for two major shows in a row, and basically turn the business into a joke, and then not change the ending can't be beneficial in the long run."

[slabinski611]

People forget how insanely formulaic WWE was from the formation of Main Event in 1988 to before the bubble had burst in the fall of 1989.

 

WM = only event for blowoff where the face wins

SNME = angles and tag switches

SummerSlam = IC switch was possible with tag main event to not sacrifice Wrestlemania

Survivor Series = feel good tag event

Royal Rumble = some shit show B-PPV with a foreshadowing to Main Event and an IC angle

Main Event = the big angle to kick off Wrestlemania season

 

There was a theme to this formula. The face always went over! It's this that killed the heat for heels come 1990, leading to decrease in demand and Vince's response increasing supply. Indeed, it's overwhelming to realize just how conservative this strategy really was.

 

Vince went away from this for a number of reasons, namely decrease in product demand and thin main event in 1990 that had no room for the huge angle to kick off Wrestlemania.

 

I know this is off topic but can someone make a seperate thread and explain to me the whole bubble popping in 1989 ? This is not the first place I've heard it either. At the time, I felt there was a decline in quality in 1990 and I felt it was a combination of Warrior not being able to carry the company and less fresh talent being brought in. However, I know I've seen it elsewhere that while people talk about the drop in 1990 that the writing was on the wall in 1989. I need that one explained as I didn't see it that way.

[BrickHithouse]

I know this is off topic but can someone make a seperate thread and explain to me the whole bubble popping in 1989 ? This is not the first place I've heard it either. At the time, I felt there was a decline in quality in 1990 and I felt it was a combination of Warrior not being able to carry the company and less fresh talent being brought in. However, I know I've seen it elsewhere that while people talk about the drop in 1990 that the writing was on the wall in 1989. I need that one explained as I didn't see it that way.

First off, I don't know. This is only a guess: There weren't any heels built up strongly enough after Savage to make anything compelling.

[jdw]

Some Hogan timeline information for reference:

 

02/05/88 The Main Event - Hogan jobs / HTM refuses to job to Savage

 

02/06/88 Superstars: Jesse talking without being able to talk about The Main Event / Tunney will announce something next week

 

02/13/88 Superstars: Tunney's Announcement / Original Brackets

 

03/27/88 Wrestlemania

 

04/21/88 Superstars taping: Hogan-Zhukov - Hogan gone after this

 

It's worth noting that's the first WWF show after Mania, so it's not like Hogan was going around the horn. He did not working the Challenge/SNME taping the next day. Other than that one match/appearance, Hogan doesn't work a WWF card until:

 

 

07/13/88 - TV taping - Hogan appears live

 

07/31/88 - WrestleFest 88 - County Stadium, Milwaukee - Hogan vs Andre

 

08/07/88 - Greensboro Coliseum - Hogan vs Andre

 

08/28/88 - Maple Leaf Gardens - Hogan vs Bad News Brown

 

And actually that's pretty much it prior to SummerSlam. Hogan is basically off from 03/27/88 - 08/28/88, mostly for the movie. He works a quartet of one-shots: a TV taping heading out the door, a TV taping to set up SummerSlam, the WWF's other major show of the summer, and the WWF's major attempt to go into Crockett Country (which bombed). The MLG card is simply the night before SummerSlam.

 

Then we've got:

 

08/29/88 - Summer Slam

 

09/04/88 - Hogan starts working around the horn mostly with Ted

 

09/19/88 - first known Hogan-Bossman

 

10/22/88 Superstars - Hogan-Bossman Angle

 

* * * * *

 

If Ted won the belt, Hogan wasn't getting it back until SummerSlam. On the flip side, it's hard to imagine them holding off beyond that: Survivor was still tag based, Rumble didn't exist as a PPV yet, and Mania was a hell of a long ways off.

 

There clearly was a change from a Hogan-DiBiase Final to a Savage-DiBiase Final reflected in the change in the brackets. Not really buying that anyone other than Hogan had a chance to get out of the top half of the brackets before the change - no one else at that point was at the level to be in the Final. There's no way they were running Hogan-Savage in the Final without a build up of the Mega Powers breaking up similar to what they eventually did. That's wasn't something they were going to simply do on the spot at Mania and then have Hogan go our for 5 months.

 

John

[Loss]

With Hogan taking time off again during the summer of '89 (although not as much as in '88), and with Randy Savage a hot heel, I do still think they should have had Savage go over in screwy fashion at WM5. I understand why they didn't, but I think they had something special that was blown off too soon.

[Guest The Jiz]

I know this is off topic but can someone make a seperate thread and explain to me the whole bubble popping in 1989 ? This is not the first place I've heard it either. At the time, I felt there was a decline in quality in 1990 and I felt it was a combination of Warrior not being able to carry the company and less fresh talent being brought in. However, I know I've seen it elsewhere that while people talk about the drop in 1990 that the writing was on the wall in 1989. I need that one explained as I didn't see it that way.

First off, I don't know. This is only a guess: There weren't any heels built up strongly enough after Savage to make anything compelling.

 

Correct.

 

Also, WWE booked themselves in a corner by having Hogan and Warrior never do jobs which is what I mean by sufficient displacement from the face-heel equilibrium. Obviously it would not have been smart for either to do jobs or to turn Warrior heel as WWF needed a potential Hogan replacement. A minor but unexplored consideration is No Holds Barred exposing the business. Yes, Hogan and Zeus drew well but nothing after did. It's like WCW drawing two months after the finger poke of doom until the Hogan-Flair double turn. But NHB might have been decisive, just as the finger poke of doom, in creating a drastic fall in consumer confidence. NHB was sort of Hogan's PR heel turn as the Cold War USA #1 patriot suddenly exposed himself as a mere entertainer who far from crushing commie and Persian scum was exploiting patriotic grievances in the biggest carry way possible.

 

Notice Hogan didn't have many passionate defenders after Arsenio. You'd expect more apologists for an American hero, but NHB and the Persian Gulf angle really made him look like a fraud.

[Dooley]

If Ted won the belt, Hogan wasn't getting it back until SummerSlam. On the flip side, it's hard to imagine them holding off beyond that: Survivor was still tag based, Rumble didn't exist as a PPV yet, and Mania was a hell of a long ways off.

I would think the logical plan would be to keep the belt on DiBiase until WM5 where Hogan takes it back. You have Savage chase DiBiase through the summer, re-introduce Hogan (in-ring) at Survivor Series, he wins the Rumble than takes back the belt. It's easy to forget how slow WWF booking moved back then.

[khawk20]

I just can't buy that they would have gone off the air of the biggest event they had with a heel celebrating as champ. It just wasn't they way they did things back then.

 

I will say that they surely considered it, like they would have looked at things from every angle...but I really don't believe it would ever have passed the idea stage.

 

I'm also very glad I never saw the WWF mag cover or heard anything about it before the event. That would have sucked.

[Guest The Jiz]

If Ted won the belt, Hogan wasn't getting it back until SummerSlam. On the flip side, it's hard to imagine them holding off beyond that: Survivor was still tag based, Rumble didn't exist as a PPV yet, and Mania was a hell of a long ways off.

I would think the logical plan would be to keep the belt on DiBiase until WM5 where Hogan takes it back. You have Savage chase DiBiase through the summer, re-introduce Hogan (in-ring) at Survivor Series, he wins the Rumble than takes back the belt. It's easy to forget how slow WWF booking moved back then.

 

That wasn't going to happen. Vince didn't blowoff world title feuds in that area. He saw Wrestlemania as the Superbowl of wrestling. There is more evidence for my claim. The first world title change happened in 1997's SummerSlam, i.e. only when competition forced Vince to change strategy. Again, SummerSlam tended to be for Intercontinental title changes. My post on this page covers this. There is no chance in Hell Vince was going to change a world title at SummerSlam in fucking 1988. If DiBiase wins, he holds it until Wrestlemania V. But he was not drawing in his shadow title run. In math, this is a proof by contradiction, or at least being reasonable doubt in the space of humans.

[Loss]

How can DiBiase's "shadow title run" be conclusive enough to be proof of anything? It lasted all of a week.

 

Anyway, it was what was reported at the time. You can choose to believe it or not, but there was week-to-week reporting and people who were involved have also pretty much described it how it was reported. Whether it seems unlikely or not, no one has ever said it was untrue, so I don't understand the skepticism.

 

Wrestlemania was still building its brand at this point, and the idea of a heel winning wasn't a departure from WWF norms on the big show, because that show had no real norms to speak of just yet.

 

I see no reason to not believe things went down as they have always been reported in this case. Out of character for what WWE normally did or not (they were taking the WWF title off of Hogan for the first time, so it's not like there was previous standard operating procedure for this), there has never been anything reported to the contrary. What more evidence is needed?

[MikeCampbell]

Something that I just thought of: Does anyone know approximately when Bam Bam debuted with the WWF? The tried and true formula of Hogan vs. Monster Heel was already established, and Hogan and Bam Bam had been teaming up. Bam Bam turns on Hogan to set up a Mania match, but Bam Bam's knees put the kibosh on that (I'm too lazy to go through all the recaps, but I recall Loss posting that Bigelow's knees were in rough shape).

[BrickHithouse]

Bigelow's TV debut was 09.12.87 Superstars vs Nikolai Volkoff.

 

Starting July 25 were the "Battle for Bam Bam" segments where each manager would say why he should manage Bigelow, and those carried through the summer.

[Guest The Jiz]

How can DiBiase's "shadow title run" be conclusive enough to be proof of anything? It lasted all of a week.

 

Anyway, it was what was reported at the time. You can choose to believe it or not, but there was week-to-week reporting and people who were involved have also pretty much described it how it was reported. Whether it seems unlikely or not, no one has ever said it was untrue, so I don't understand the skepticism.

 

Wrestlemania was still building its brand at this point, and the idea of a heel winning wasn't a departure from WWF norms on the big show, because that show had no real norms to speak of just yet.

 

I see no reason to not believe things went down as they have always been reported in this case. Out of character for what WWE normally did or not (they were taking the WWF title off of Hogan for the first time, so it's not like there was previous standard operating procedure for this), there has never been anything reported to the contrary. What more evidence is needed?

Because if you suppose DiBiase gets the belt, it raises more questions than answers. As far as DiBiase as champion, WO reported he drew poorly in CA and did the worst MSG house in ages. I don't think this shadow run was accident. Vince wanted to see whether DiBiase could replace Hogan. The numbers didn't pan out. So he put the title on Savage instead.

[BrickHithouse]

Jiz, what exactly was Dibiase's shadow run? The shows when he actually possessed the belt? I didn't think that was more than a handful of shows. Or, Jiz, are you talking Feb 6 thru WrestleMania?

[Guest The Jiz]

Jiz, what exactly was Dibiase's shadow run? The shows when he actually possessed the belt? I didn't think that was more than a handful of shows. Or, Jiz, are you talking Feb 6 thru WrestleMania?

When he had the belt for two weeks on house shows. For whatever reason, he was blamed for the poor houses. Vince also attended all MSG shows so I think this shadow run was Vince's calculated risk knowing that taking the belt from his ace was a huge risk.

[Loss]

How can DiBiase's "shadow title run" be conclusive enough to be proof of anything? It lasted all of a week.

 

Anyway, it was what was reported at the time. You can choose to believe it or not, but there was week-to-week reporting and people who were involved have also pretty much described it how it was reported. Whether it seems unlikely or not, no one has ever said it was untrue, so I don't understand the skepticism.

 

Wrestlemania was still building its brand at this point, and the idea of a heel winning wasn't a departure from WWF norms on the big show, because that show had no real norms to speak of just yet.

 

I see no reason to not believe things went down as they have always been reported in this case. Out of character for what WWE normally did or not (they were taking the WWF title off of Hogan for the first time, so it's not like there was previous standard operating procedure for this), there has never been anything reported to the contrary. What more evidence is needed?

Because if you suppose DiBiase gets the belt, it raises more questions than answers. As far as DiBiase as champion, WO reported he drew poorly in CA and did the worst MSG house in ages. I don't think this shadow run was accident. Vince wanted to see whether DiBiase could replace Hogan. The numbers didn't pan out. So he put the title on Savage instead.

 

It doesn't really.

 

(1) DiBiase came in with huge hype and a strong push.

(2) Hogan was taking time off and needed to drop the title.

(3) They needed a heel to keep the belt warm until Hogan returned.

(4) Savage was not at all involved in the title picture with Hogan, Andre and DiBiase until after the SNME, when the HTM thing happened.

(5) Vince promised Savage the title so he wouldn't shoot on HTM on NBC for refusing to job to him.

(6) The brackets were announced and later changed to accommodate the changed decision.

 

All they did was switch from DiBiase holding the title while Hogan was out to Savage holding the title.

 

Week-to-week, real time reporting corroborates all of this.

 

And of course, the Savage thing was the best long-term storyline in the history of the promotion and did monster business, to a point where even with the huge success of Wrestlemania V, they probably still had another few months of juice in the angle. So it worked out better in the end.

 

What am I missing?

[Loss]

Jiz, what exactly was Dibiase's shadow run? The shows when he actually possessed the belt? I didn't think that was more than a handful of shows. Or, Jiz, are you talking Feb 6 thru WrestleMania?

When he had the belt for two weeks on house shows. For whatever reason, he was blamed for the poor houses. Vince also attended all MSG shows so I think this shadow run was Vince's calculated risk knowing that taking the belt from his ace was a huge risk.

 

Hogan was taking time off. He needed to drop the title. It was a matter of how they were going to do it, not if they were going to do it. "Taking the belt from his ace was a huge risk" implies it was a purely creative decision they would have made even if Hogan was sticking around full time. They made it out of necessity.