Wrestlemania IV title picture

[MikeCampbell]

Awesome, fascinating thread, my favorite one in a while.

 

One thing that no one has really mentioned so far is this: Personally I don't think it's a stretch at all to imagine "Hulk Hogan returns to fight Ted Dibiase (and take the title back)" as the selling point to launch the first Summerslam. To me that makes perfect sense to launch a new PPV concept and establish it as a major event you can't miss.

That makes sense to a certain degree. But, where do you go from there as far as Hogan and Savage? What's the selling point for WrestleMania 5 if Hogan is already champion? It makes more sense to me to have DiBiase over Savage in the finals, a fresh Ted beats a worn down Macho Man. Then, Summerslam is a double main event of Savage/Ted, where Savage lifts the title, and a final blowoff to Hogan/Andre after the NBC and 'Mania matches. After that, you can lead into The Mega Powers exploding angle.

[cm funk]

I mentioned that

 

I'd also be interested to know when exactly SummerSlam was conceived. I have to think it was already in the plans before WM and was setup to coincide with Hogan's return, and possibly to have a big PPV event where he could get the title back. It's possible that Savage would have transitioned the belt to DiBiase in the summer, giving him an actual run, and Hogan comes back to reclaim the title at SummerSlam. Then you eventually get the same turn angle from Savage and title match at WMV with Hogan defending. But Savage surprises them how well he does as champion, and they decide to keep the belt on him for a year, giving them two strong house show draws.

[cm funk]

On the character thing, it seems holes have been poked in most of my list there. And it does seem like most of it was Vince taking characteristics that were there and going over the top with them.

 

So is the only characters we can say he truely created before MDM The damn Hillbillies?

 

I wonder with someone like Ray Traylor. He had legit been a prison guard before he got into wrestling. Did he come to Vince with the gimmick, or did Vince find that out and decide to make it his gimmick? Similar situations later on with Bob Holly, Shane Douglas and a number of others. Were those their ideas and he just ran with it?

 

I guess I have two main questions:

 

1. What are the earliest characters we can point to Vince creating organically and not appropriating/enhancing prior to or around the time of MDM?

 

2. After MDM, what characters were brainstormed and then wrestlers hired to fill, and what characters were created for specific wrestlers?

 

I concede JVK's point on MDM being the first of it's kind as far as we can tell. Other than that it's hard to pinpoint specific examples.

 

After thinking about it for awhile, one modern one would be Spirit Squad. The writers came up with the idea, then pulled guys out of OVW to fill it (one story has Punk reportedly pitched the idea and turning it down). There's been other examples like this, where the writers come up with an idea and bring someone up to fill it. Deacon Batista would possibly be one. Kerwin White's caddy. Sure if I thought about it I'd come up with dozens of cases like this in modern WWE.

[JerryvonKramer]

How about this scenario: someone mentioned the idea of DiBiase winning the tournament through a DQ or CO.

 

What if everything played out exactly the same way, but the ref DQ'd Savage for Hogan using the chair. I don't know if you can still do the Mega Powers explode angle, but Hogan and Savage would have an instant reason for rivalry if Savage takes it badly. Have Savage win over Ted at Summerslam -- Orange Goblin runs down to celebrate -- maybe puts Liz on HIS shoulder or something wildly inappropriate -- and Savage doesn't want him there. So it's a weird angle where Hogan wants to be Savage's friend, but Savage still resents him.

 

Then, at Survivor Series, Hogan and Savage are put in the same team vs. The Million Dollar Team (let's say Ted, Andre and Twin Towers -- BEEF!) and there you do the full heel turn with Savage and Hogan as the last two faces vs. all four heels. Savage decks Hogan with a chair and lets the heels beatdown on him. He does an elbow drop from the top with a chair during this. Liz is aghast.

 

Keep that burning through promos till Mania 5. It's not Mega Powers, but in the timeframe they could have done something like that.

 

2. After MDM, what characters were brainstormed and then wrestlers hired to fill, and what characters were created for specific wrestlers?

Looks like Undertaker is definitely one.

 

I have a vague memory of someone saying that Terry Taylor was considered to play Mr. Perfect -- probably Taylor himself in some shoot. Perfect "seems" like a Vince / booking concept and Hennig was not doing that character before WWF.

 

I still think even after MDM that the concept before the worker was not the norm. The thing my mind always goes to is that scene from Beyond the Mat with Vince going on about PUKE. That seemed very much spur of the moment and would count as a case of him being given a worker and then thinking of a gimmick. Likely that worked like that most of the time.

 

IRS has to be a concept first -- Vince was facing tax issues and wanted to make a point about it. Rotunda had never played a part like that before and it's likely that if they didn't hire him at that point that someone else would have been given that role.

 

The gimmick stuff is actually about copyright too. Vince wanted to own intellectual rights to all the wrestlers. He can own Irwin R. Shyster, but not Mike Rotunda.

 

It's the 91-4 characters where we'll find most examples. I mentioned Doink, does anyone know the story behind that one?

 

With the copyright stuff -- I just thought of Ed Leslie. He could never go by Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake in WCW OR do the gimmick. How did Brutus become the Barber?

[Log]

How did Brutus become the Barber?

He helped Piper cut Adonis' hair at WMIII. He had a falling out with Jimmy Hart earlier, then helped Piper to get back at him (if I'm recalling it correctly). It just kinda grew from that.

 

That character led to me playing with my mom's hedge clippers a lot more than a kid probably should've.

[cm funk]

Rotunda was playing Michael Wallstreet in WCW when he jumped in 91. It wasn't that different from IRS.

 

[JerryvonKramer]

True I guess, lol at that pic.

[Migs]

How did Brutus become the Barber?

He helped Piper cut Adonis' hair at WMIII. He had a falling out with Jimmy Hart earlier, then helped Piper to get back at him (if I'm recalling it correctly). It just kinda grew from that.

 

That character led to me playing with my mom's hedge clippers a lot more than a kid probably should've.

 

Brutus claims it was a Pat Patterson idea, basically out of thin air (although somehow related to Pat's romantic partner, who was a hair stylist). Brutus seems to have a real ax to grind with Patterson, though, so I'm not sure to what extent I buy it.

[thebrainfollower]

I kind of do actually. I was shocked to see how many matches Brutus got with Hogan in 85 (IIRC more than anyone) and I would assume a bunch in 86 as well. I am sure Hogan was telling him all the time "Your big main event run with me is just around the corner brother". Never going to happen (well in WWF) but Beefcake bought it. Then the Barber gimmick comes along and Hogan's saved from his own lies (not that Ed Leslie would have done anything anyway but Hogan's paranoia and dishonesty is mind boggling I just watched 2002 Off the Record with him and laughed my head off at it)

[Stuttsy]

Awesome, fascinating thread, my favorite one in a while.

 

One thing that no one has really mentioned so far is this: Personally I don't think it's a stretch at all to imagine "Hulk Hogan returns to fight Ted Dibiase (and take the title back)" as the selling point to launch the first Summerslam. To me that makes perfect sense to launch a new PPV concept and establish it as a major event you can't miss.

That makes sense to a certain degree. But, where do you go from there as far as Hogan and Savage? What's the selling point for WrestleMania 5 if Hogan is already champion? It makes more sense to me to have DiBiase over Savage in the finals, a fresh Ted beats a worn down Macho Man. Then, Summerslam is a double main event of Savage/Ted, where Savage lifts the title, and a final blowoff to Hogan/Andre after the NBC and 'Mania matches. After that, you can lead into The Mega Powers exploding angle.

 

That totally works too. Point being I just don't see Dibiase making it to WrestleMania 5 with the title.

[jdw]

Didn't both Eadie and Randy Colley insist they came up with the gimmick? Both used it after they were turfed from WWF and Eadie even went to court over it, didn't he?

I suspect that a good deal of what Vince is credited with "creating" were actually the ideas of other folks.

 

They were other "characters" before they got to the WWF, and Eadie actually played another character in the WWF before it was decided to rip off the Road Warriors. Whoever came up with it, Vince approved it and pushed the shit out of them.

 

John

[jdw]

Do you ever stop being a twat?

 

Rather than admit that you screwed up that argument, instead you shift to a place where you think you can win instead. How about a "yeah, actually now you mention it Jerry, my point was totally irrelevant. Sorry for fucking up yet another thread with my inane bollocks." Total wanker.

I got a "fuck you", a "twat" and a "wanker" all in one thread. Outstanding.

 

John

[marrklarr]

I got a "fuck you", a "twat" and a "wanker" all in one thread. Outstanding.

You and Jerry remind me of Sam and Diane from Cheers. Just fuck and get it over with.

[Steven]

I got a "fuck you", a "twat" and a "wanker" all in one thread. Outstanding.

You and Jerry remind me of Sam and Diane from Cheers. Just fuck and get it over with.

 

Probably should just make a "Pro Wrestling Not Really: JVK vs JDW" subforum to contain their bickering.

[Loss]

I also thought Jerry blocked him. Block him or don't -- either way is fine. But if you don't want to talk to him, don't. He's free to talk to you as long as he isn't trolling, of course. You're also free to not respond.