Where the Big Boys Play #54

[JerryvonKramer]

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-b...e-champions-12/

 

 

Chad and Parv endure Clash of the Champions 12 for your listening pleasure.

- [04:37] Observer and Torch roundup, including: Keller's Torch Talks with Jim Ross and Evil Jim Herd, Jesse Ventura's rubbish unreleased Sega game, and Haku's awesome bar-room brawl.

- [58:11] Gordon Solie Wrestling News Network Update: "Bad Van Vader", Lex Luger's baggy muddy shirt and the Horsemen reach their nadir -- trying to break Tim Horner's leg

- [1:04:37] Clash of the Champions 12 review, including squash, squash, shitty Steiner promo, squash, squash, squash, Luger vs. Flair part 5, and, yes, squash. Question for the listeners: can you come up with any ideas for how to make the Black Scorpion angle work?

- [2:12:17] End of the show awards and last show's responses to 'Question for the Listeners'.

 

The PWO-PTBN Podcast Network features great shows you can find right here at Place to Be Nation. By subscribing on iTunes or SoundCloud, you’ll have access to new episodes, bonus content, as well as a complete archive of: Where the Big Boys Play, Titans of Wrestling, Pro-Wrestling Super-Show, Good Will Wrestling, and Wrestling With the Past.

[bradhindsight]

Interesting tidbit on the unreleased Jesse Ventura game Parv. Sega's model for sports gaming around that time was centered around an athlete (or coach).

 

Tommy Lasorda Baseball

Pat Riley Basketball

Joe Montana Football (a big get)

 

The thing I found most interesting is Vince's deal with Nintendo. By this time LJN was publishing their games on the NES. Maybe they had a two game deal with WrestleMania Challenge and Steel Cage Challenge (WWF WrestleMania was Acclaim and out in 1989) but something changed with exclusitivity (read: $$$) since WWF Super Wrestlemania came out of the Sega Genesis in 1992 (and King of the Ring came out for the NES in 1993 one of the last NES games).

 

So Ventura leaves and the game STILL doesn't get released. That's a shame.

 

And I probably had that Sega Visions magazine.

[Loss]

Interesting show. I'm thinking about your thoughts on the Flair/Luger series as a whole and I'm curious where you think it ranks among the all-time great in-ring feuds. I think it's hurt by not having the final match with Luger getting a huge win, but I'd have no problem calling it a top five feud for WCW/NWA at worst. Would you agree with that?

[soup23]

So far the only feuds I would have ahead are:

 

1. Flair vs. Steamboat

2. Flair vs. Garvin (think we have went over this one but I would have it before Flair vs. Luger simply because I think the Garvin title change match is better than any Flair vs. Luger match)

3. Flair vs. Funk (shorter than others but packed a lot of punch)

 

It is in contention with Tully/TA and Fantastics vs. MX.

 

I think the things in favor of Flair vs. Luger is that they had an all timer classic match (Wrestlewar) and at least two more matches I would classify as great (Starrcade 88, Clash 12). Their other matches are still very good and really different from one another including who was the face/heel like in the Starrcade 1989 match.

[JerryvonKramer]

Interesting tidbit on the unreleased Jesse Ventura game Parv. Sega's model for sports gaming around that time was centered around an athlete (or coach).

 

Tommy Lasorda Baseball

Pat Riley Basketball

Joe Montana Football (a big get)

 

The thing I found most interesting is Vince's deal with Nintendo. By this time LJN was publishing their games on the NES. Maybe they had a two game deal with WrestleMania Challenge and Steel Cage Challenge (WWF WrestleMania was Acclaim and out in 1989) but something changed with exclusitivity (read: $$$) since WWF Super Wrestlemania came out of the Sega Genesis in 1992 (and King of the Ring came out for the NES in 1993 one of the last NES games).

 

So Ventura gets fired and the game STILL doesn't get released. That's a shame.

 

And I probably had that Sega Visions magazine.

Here's the screenshot:

 

 

I took about an hour out reading and researching that. Fuck my life.

 

Should note that Ventura wasn't fired, he quit over it.

 

Interesting show. I'm thinking about your thoughts on the Flair/Luger series as a whole and I'm curious where you think it ranks among the all-time great in-ring feuds. I think it's hurt by not having the final match with Luger getting a huge win, but I'd have no problem calling it a top five feud for WCW/NWA at worst. Would you agree with that?

Luger not getting that pin does make him seem like a massive choker in the long-run.

 

I'd probably take Garvin-Flair, Steamboat-Flair, and Magnum-Tully over it both in-ring and in terms of the story of the feud itself, but beyond them it's not far behind.

 

Want else would even be in contention? Flair-Funk feud? Steamboat-Rude? Final Conflict? I'm a big big mark for Vader-Flair in 93 and the 96 version of Savage-Flair. What else?

 

I'm also interested in how you'd rank the matches, Loss. Chad, Meltzer and Keller were all lower on this match than I was. Most people are probably higher on the GAB 88 match than either Chad or me.

[Loss]

I don't think Luger was ready to go long in a main event yet at Bash '88. He worked hard, but he wasn't quite there as a worker, to a point where I thought even Flair was a step down from usual just from working so hard to carry him. I do like the match, but it feels like imitation Flair vs Luger in some ways. Lex was there by the end of the year, as he clearly proved at Starrcade. Bash '88 is my least favorite feud of the series. I'd probably go:

 

Wrestle War '90

Starrcade '88

Clash 12

Capital Combat

Starrcade '89

Great American Bash '88

[bradhindsight]

Wrestle War '90

Starrcade '88

Clash 12

Capital Combat

Starrcade '89

Great American Bash '88

Nice. I also have 12 over CC. I think this is great list.

 

This is a piece you should write up for PTBN Chad or Parv!

[soup23]

I have same exact rankings as Loss except I may be persuaded to switch Capital Combat and Starrcade 89. I will say when I watched the 1990 YouTube footage, I had the Capital Combat match ranked 99 and the Clash match ranked 92 but the Cap Combat loss a little bit in my eyes on rewatch and Clash gained a good bit because of the sprint nature of the match and how bad almost everything else on the card was.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm higher on the Starrcade 89 match because of the bizarro world heel Luger / face Flair dynamic. Think it's probably Luger's best performance in the series.

[PeteF3]

Potential, REALISTIC choices for the Scorpion in my mind...

 

Realistic means the Warrior is out. That leaves only one reasonable person from Sting's past who remotely fits the clues, and that's Eddie Gilbert. Considering he was a mid-card/JTTS guy for WCW before leaving, that would probably be an immediate anticlimax, especially if they continue to drag this out until Starrcade. That said, an earlier reveal with Gilbert being given a chance to cut loose on the mic could have saved this, as Eddie could sell any storyline. However, the other big negative in addition to Eddie's prior placement on the card is that Gilbert being thrust into a main event role would probably rub a lot of other people in the company the wrong way--and it was a matter of when, not if, Eddie got into a disagreement with Evil Jim Herd or somebody and wanted out again.

 

So the other option is to pretend all those clues never happened, which with Flair is exactly what they did. Other people who were theoretically available or would be soon:

 

- Terry Funk. Could have pulled it off, but you run the risk of rehashing a main event run with more of the same. Funk's run was great but I don't know if WCW fans were clamoring for more of him.

 

- The Great Muta. I suspect more fans at the time would have wanted to see him back than Funk.

 

- Rick Steamboat. My pet pick and one whose shock value would have been through the roof. I've never quite believed the idea that "fans wouldn't want to boo Ricky." Someone forgot to tell the '89 WCW audience that. And I think a worker as masterful as Steamboat was could have worked heel. I like the idea of Steamboat as a forgotten World Champion, vengeful that this upstart Sting was stealing the spotlight that should have belonged to him.

 

- Dusty Rhodes. No way on earth would Dusty have agreed to turn heel at this point, and he couldn't step into the ring on anything more than a limited basis. But there's something appealing about Dusty playing the same role as Steamboat, cutting bitter promos in a Col. Kurtz/Kasper Gutman-style setting and sending a wave of heels after Sting.

 

Honestly, the idea of Hansen basically taking over the gimmick is probably the best realistic one that I've heard. Stan really should have had that Havoc main event over Sid.

[Migs]

Potential, REALISTIC choices for the Scorpion in my mind...

 

Realistic means the Warrior is out. That leaves only one reasonable person from Sting's past who remotely fits the clues, and that's Eddie Gilbert. Considering he was a mid-card/JTTS guy for WCW before leaving, that would probably be an immediate anticlimax, especially if they continue to drag this out until Starrcade. That said, an earlier reveal with Gilbert being given a chance to cut loose on the mic could have saved this, as Eddie could sell any storyline. However, the other big negative in addition to Eddie's prior placement on the card is that Gilbert being thrust into a main event role would probably rub a lot of other people in the company the wrong way--and it was a matter of when, not if, Eddie got into a disagreement with Evil Jim Herd or somebody and wanted out again.

 

So the other option is to pretend all those clues never happened, which with Flair is exactly what they did. Other people who were theoretically available or would be soon:

 

- Terry Funk. Could have pulled it off, but you run the risk of rehashing a main event run with more of the same. Funk's run was great but I don't know if WCW fans were clamoring for more of him.

 

- The Great Muta. I suspect more fans at the time would have wanted to see him back than Funk.

 

- Rick Steamboat. My pet pick and one whose shock value would have been through the roof. I've never quite believed the idea that "fans wouldn't want to boo Ricky." Someone forgot to tell the '89 WCW audience that. And I think a worker as masterful as Steamboat was could have worked heel. I like the idea of Steamboat as a forgotten World Champion, vengeful that this upstart Sting was stealing the spotlight that should have belonged to him.

 

- Dusty Rhodes. No way on earth would Dusty have agreed to turn heel at this point, and he couldn't step into the ring on anything more than a limited basis. But there's something appealing about Dusty playing the same role as Steamboat, cutting bitter promos in a Col. Kurtz/Kasper Gutman-style setting and sending a wave of heels after Sting.

 

Honestly, the idea of Hansen basically taking over the gimmick is probably the best realistic one that I've heard. Stan really should have had that Havoc main event over Sid.

What about Eddie being the Scorpion but bringing in someone to do the actual main event matches with Sting? Using Eddie as the mouthpiece?

[Evil Jim Herd]

What, Wade Keller doesn't write for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch? What is a Professional Wrestling Torch?

[SteveJRogers]

Hate to potentially drag in a new layer to the Hulk Hogan vs. Molly Ringwald debate, BUT I'd wager Jesse Ventura had some pop culture cache in 1990 that it would have been appropriate to have his name attached to a video game.

 

He had major roles in Predator and The Running Man besides being THE commentator for the WWF programming for quite a while at that point, so his name was out there in terms of pop culture. Yeah one would stretch to call him a D-List celeb, but I'm sure to the target audience Sega was hoping to get to buy the game, he would have been quite well known, even among people that didn't know the AWA from the ABA (American Basketball Association, a successful alternative basketball league that lasted from the mid-1960s through the mid-1970s).

[shoe]

As a kid I always thought one of the unknown members of Power Team USA and make him a star.

[thebrainfollower]

In all honesty I am going to agree with Steamboat as a great choice to be the Scorpion. Admit the truth, the fans didn't care for his image. Have Flair come out and seem shocked to see his long term rival turn heel, possibly have Steamboat even lay him out to get over the idea Steamboat's lost it and hates everyone. If Steamboat's a great worker he should be able to figure out how to wrestle heel.

 

Can I also point out Evil Jim Herd is my new hero. I await his rant when they get to GAB 91 with baited breath.

[Matt D]

I've gone over my complex booking plan using Eddie Gilbert as a smokescreen to put the belt on Barry.

[Grimmas]

What about Eddie being the Scorpion but bringing in someone to do the actual main event matches with Sting? Using Eddie as the mouthpiece?

That is what I was thinking.

 

You'd have to remove the magic, obviously. Here is what you do though.

 

Clash XII, Sting beats The Black Scorpion, removes his mask and it's Ivan Koloff or somebody else who is legit. Eddie Gilbert appears on the stage as a second Black Scorpion. Saying Sting has many trials ahead of him before he finds out who the true Black Scorpion is.

 

You follow that way, until Gilbert is revealed. As Sting is destroying Gilbert, that is when you bring in Gilbert's monster guy (someone like Vader) to destroy Sting and save Gilbert.

 

Then you go into Vader-Sting matches with Gilbert in the corner instead of Harley.

[Evil Jim Herd]

Interesting show. I'm thinking about your thoughts on the Flair/Luger series as a whole and I'm curious where you think it ranks among the all-time great in-ring feuds. I think it's hurt by not having the final match with Luger getting a huge win, but I'd have no problem calling it a top five feud for WCW/NWA at worst. Would you agree with that?

I have some footage of Randy Colley and El Gigante tearing it up on the house show circuit that I would like to send you for your high school yearbook project.

[Evil Jim Herd]

I was also disappointed about Master Blaster Iron but don't worry, Master Blaster Blade is a much cooler character. Iron and Steel was genius though. See, they just came from their work as day laborers in the iron mill. They had the soot on their face and everything. Did you guys get that?

[Evil Jim Herd]

To answer your question at the end of your entertainment radio show, I would book the Black Scorpion like this:

 

First Al Perez is under the mask and Sting has to fight him at Clash of the Champions XII. After Sting defeats him, he pulls his mask off but he has another mask on! Then the real Black Scorpion comes to the top of the ramp allowing Al Perez to escape.

 

Meanwhile, as the mystery and drama builds, the Black Scorpion continues to haunt Sting with cool illusions and other magic tricks, showing off his supernatural powers.

 

Finally, Sting wrestlers the Black Scorpion at Starrcade and defeats him, only to reveal that it was Ric Flair!

[Loss]

Okay, who is doing this gimmick?

[Evil Jim Herd]

I almost forgot, I love the Gordon Solie segments! Please don't stop those.

 

And Wade Keller completely took my comments out of context. I never took responsibility for the Ding Dongs, and they haven't failed by any means. But, it's a free country I guess. What an asshole.

[JerryvonKramer]

Chad - "old school dude" sent me this on KM via PM -- said he's having problems signing up to PWO. Anyway, putting it here for safe keeping when you read some of these out on air. Glad "question for the listeners" finally seems to be getting over.

 

I will send you my answer to the Black Scorpion question on the WTBBP Clash 12 podcast here as I am not sure where to post the answer and I was not able to sign up for the PWO board.

 

If the Black Scorpion angle was to get over you would almost have to book it backwards from the end to the beginning. The payoff would have to support the booking. So, if you do not have Warrior coming in as the Scorpion, which it was obvious that he was not, then the buildup has to remain on par with whoever would be the Scorpion. The alternatives could be Eddie Gilbert, Bill Watts, or maybe even Jerry Lawler, as Lawler & the Blade Runners worked a short program when they first started in Memphis. Lawler could work against Sting, and it would add an additional element to the angle if Lawler continued to appear in Memphis while the angle played out in WCW, but if you went with Gilbert or Watts they would likely be best used as a manager for a monster heel, Gilbert due to his size and Watts due to his age. This could have been used to bring in Vader or any monster heel to work against Sting. Actually any of those three could book the entire angle and it would likely have gotten over better. However, the announcers would be key in the angle getting over with one of these three. As they would be required to educate the fans to Stings past, noting his start in Memphis, then his move to Mid-South and his involvement with Gilbert and Watts.

 

The angle could have gone over huge if booked properly and there were a few good points in the angle, but not many. The swerves in the angle were good, as they kept people guessing. But overall, the failure of the angle was Ole was booking it and he booked it as though he had someone huge to reveal as the Black Scorpion but Ric Flair as the scorpion was an overall let down as there was no real shock in seeing Flair when the mask came off. Ole has booked some great angles in his time, but he was past his prime at this point, and what worked in 1980, see his turn on Dusty in Georgia, would not work as well in 1990.

[Dustys Pencil]

Finally listening to this

 

Its EL HE-GON-TEH lol

 

LPWA actually aired in quite a few markets late night in the early 90s. It was wrestling so I watched it but didn't do very much for me.

 

The lower top10 would have been great if it was 1984

 

This was just a dull era of wrestling. I'm currently watching the spring of 89 on the weekends and its crazy how fast this ship sank

[bradhindsight]

Chad - "old school dude" sent me this on KM via PM -- said he's having problems signing up to PWO.

 

Sounds like "old school dude" jobbed out to the PWO captcha test.