Wrestlers' opinions of each other

[ohtani's jacket]

Since when did film critics dismiss John Ford?

[DR Ackermann]

They don't dismiss him. I don't think I explained myself very well. I meant that in comparison to how a number of other directors view him and his importance, a lot of critics' don't tend to see him in the same light. Everyone likes the Searchers, though.

[JerryvonKramer]

I knew that growing collection of film reference books would come in handy one day.

 

Lelslie Halliwell, Barry Norman, Roger Ebert, and Leonard Maltin all seem to rate Ford quite highly.

 

However, David Thompson seems not to like Ford much in his New Biographical Dictionary of Film and Clive James (by the by, whose Cultural Amnesia EVERYONE should read once) seems to agree with him.

 

Mark Kermode hardly ever mentions Ford.

 

The easiest way to see this would be to look at voter breakdown in Sight & Sound's top 100 lists. See if Ford gets more votes from directors than critics.

[DR Ackermann]

Also, thanks for clearing up Race's actual opinion of Vader. I always thought what he said was strange, and it was because I took it out of context and misunderstood him completely.

[DR Ackermann]

Its possible I've misunderstood the opinions of both directors and critics in relation to John Ford. I feel like I always see critics acknowledging him as great like its a formality, but the focus on his movies is usually very limited and revolves around the Searchers. On the other hand I've read a lot about directors being enamored by him, but, they're usually directors who were working when John Ford was still alive, or they were children when his movies came out.

 

I have David Thomson's book, and that was probably on my mind as representative of a lot of critics.

[Al]

Bob Orton Jr. is beloved by so many people it's insane. I've probably heard ten guys speak with great reverence about him. Buddy Rose said he was the best worker he ever saw.

A lot of that is probably reverence to his dad.

[ohtani's jacket]

On the last Sight and Sound poll, critics had The Searchers at 7 and directors had it at 48.

[jdw]

What Jerry says. Both Directors and Critics like a wide variety of Ford movies. Sight & Sound is a good example:

 

Critics

#7 The Searchers

#117 The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

#183 The Grapes of Wrath

#235 My Darling Clementine

#235 How Green Was My Valley

#283 Wagon Master

#323 The Quiet Man

#323 Stagecoach

#323 Young Mr Lincoln

#447 Fort Apache

#447 Seven Women

#447 The Wings of Eagles

#588 Rio Grande

#588 She Wore A Yellow Ribbon

#588 The Sun Shines Bright

#588 They Were Expendable

#894 The Long Gray Line

#894 The Long Voyage Home

#894 Pilgrimage

#894 Three Godfathers

#894 Cheyenne Autumn

 

 

Directors

#48 The Searchers

#132 The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

#132 My Darling Clementine

#174 The Grapes of Wrath

#322 The Quiet Man

#322 Stagecoach

#322 The Informer

#546 How Green Was My Valley

#546 The Sun Shines Bright

#546 They Were Expendable

#546 Wagon Master

#546 Young Mr Lincoln

#546 Cheyenne Autumn

 

More movies popped up on the Critics polls, but that likely is due to there being considerably more Critics lists submitted than Directors list. Get a vote, and you're ranked. Those #894 and #546 numbers at the bottom of the lists were the ranking for showing up on just 1 ballot.

 

Is it anymore impressive that there were 4 Top 200 movies on the Director's side and just 3 on the Critics? Not sure it really matters. My Darling Clementine got 7 votes from Critics and 5 from Directors... nothing significant there.

 

Did The Searchers stand out more from the "pack" with the Critics? Sure. But the odd thing is that there was no movie up to threaten the Top 10 on the Directors side. It's not that it was terribly divided in votes: those six 1 vote films at the bottom don't really change much.

 

Kurosawa might be a better example. Seven Samurai (17-C/17-D) and Rashomon (24-C/18-D) finished well ahead of the rest of their movies. With the rest of his movies that got votes, only Throne of Blood (235-C / 546-D) and Red Beard (1 critics vote, no directors votes) saw critics like them more to a degree of any note. And having two Top 25 movies might have been why one of them didn't Top 10 this time around.

 

* * * * *

 

On the more general point...

 

Of course people in the business have different opinions that we do.

 

*We* have differing opinions amongst ourselves. There rarely is a consensus once we move beyond our circles. We might find a circle of Kawada or Lawler or Jumbo or Fujiwara or Rose fans. Go beyond that circle and it gets tougher to the same % people who would agree with you that one of those guys is a Top 10 all-time worker.

 

John

[DR Ackermann]

That is just one movie though, so its not really representative of how people feel about the director on either side. A lot of people will bash Spielberg, but still praise Raiders of the Lost Ark. But...that also doesn't mean I was right about the point I was trying to make earlier. I was basing too much of my analogy on knowledge of what a bunch of dead directors and a very limited group of critics had to say. Too many inaccurate, un-thought-out assumptions on my part.

[jdw]

That is just one movie though, so its not really representative of how people feel about the director on either side. A lot of people will bash Spielberg, but still praise Raiders of the Lost Ark. But...that also doesn't mean I was right about the point I was trying to make earlier. I was basing too much of my analogy on knowledge of what a bunch of dead directors and a very limited group of critics had to say. Too many inaccurate, un-thought-out assumptions on my part.

Probably posted before seeing the fuller list that I tossed up.

 

Which wasn't to knock your point - Kurosawa is a pretty good example of what you're talking about where critics and directors tended to focus on the Big 2, but then Directors tends to get more interesting down the ballot from the Big 2.

 

John

[Childs]

More important than any consensus on John Ford, this thread has produced a moment of harmony between jdw and jvk.

[DR Ackermann]

Yeah, I didn't see your post at first.

 

Interestingly, the Informer is absent from the critics list, which I think fits in with the point I failed to make earlier. I know a lot of people have issues with or shy away from praising the Informer for political and moral reasons because they feel like it glorifies the IRA. Whether that's true or not, or how that plays out morally, that is a criticism that is outside the bounds someone else, like a director, might have for appreciating the movie as an expression of film art, if the are looking at it from a strictly technical and artistic perspective.

 

I think Kurosawa is much better example too.

[JerryvonKramer]

Directors often like very visual directors whose films look like paintings like Won-Kar-Wai or Peter Greenaway.

[DR Ackermann]

Critics really like Wong-Kar-Wai too. He was voted number 3 on a Sight & Sound top ten modern directors poll.

 

I think there is a lot more to it than just looking good. Of course everyone is different, but I think that directors tend to place more critical weight on how well someone tells a story and solves problems with visuals (editing, camera placement, blocking, what is seen and not seen, etc.) than critics do.

 

But that could just be my understanding.

 

I know we're getting really off topic here, but if anyone is interested, http://www.theyshootpictures.com/ is a really cool website that compiles one giant greatest films list every year based on the information they gather from all the various published polls and top ten lists.

[Log]

Bob Orton Jr. is beloved by so many people it's insane. I've probably heard ten guys speak with great reverence about him. Buddy Rose said he was the best worker he ever saw.

A lot of that is probably reverence to his dad.

 

Man, so Randy is coasting on people's opinion of his Grandpa?

[ohtani's jacket]

That is just one movie though, so its not really representative of how people feel about the director on either side. A lot of people will bash Spielberg, but still praise Raiders of the Lost Ark. But...that also doesn't mean I was right about the point I was trying to make earlier. I was basing too much of my analogy on knowledge of what a bunch of dead directors and a very limited group of critics had to say. Too many inaccurate, un-thought-out assumptions on my part.

I found this on a blog:

 

"Below is a list of the 25 directors with the most votes, followed by how many films they have in the top 100 and how many of the votes went toward films in the top 100.

 

1.Hitchcock – 318 votes (4 films accounting for 281 of those votes)

2.Godard 233? (4 films, 161)

3.Welles 231 (3 films, 203)

4.Ozu 189 (2 films, 157)

5.Renoir 179 (3 films, 140)

6. Ford 158 (1 film, 78)

6. Dreyer 158 (3 films, 138)

8.Kubrick 157 (2 films, 115)

9.Tarkovsky 153 (3 films, 127)

10.Bresson 149 (3 films, 96)

11.Coppola 145 (3 films, 144)

12.Bergman 143 (4 films, 108)

13.Murnau 134 (1 film, 93)

14.Fellini 129 (2 films, 97)

15.Kurosawa 127 (2 films, 89)

16.Bunuel; 114 (1 film, 17)

17.Antonioni 110 (2 films, 65)

18.Chaplin 98 (2 films, 43)

19.Scorsese 97 (2 films, 66)

20.Lynch 92 (2 films, 63)

21.Lang 91 (2 films, 60)

22.Eisenstein 88 (1 film, 63)

EDIT: 22 (tie) Hawks 88 (1 film, 24)

23.Mizoguchi 85 (2 films, 54)

24.Powell, Pressburger 84 (2 films, 35)

25.Rossellini 83 (1 film, 32)"

 

My feeling is that Ford remains highly regarded but that critics gravitate towards one film.

 

I wonder if a more interesting example of what you're talking about is comedians like Jerry Lewis or Harold Lloyd who were ignored by critics for a long time. Or directors who did women's pictures like Douglas Sirk.

[Mr. Lacelle]

Harley's opinion of Lawler might be negative due to Jerry suing the WWF over the King moniker.

[JerryvonKramer]

Larry Matysik is down on Lawler too, it's not an uncommon view from guys of that era.

[Matt D]

I don't think I've ever heard a wrestler praise another for using scummy heel tactics really well.

[El-P]

I wonder if a more interesting example of what you're talking about is comedians like Jerry Lewis

Depends where. Jerry Lewis always had good reviews in France, including from serious critics. At the same time, Louis de Funes was not highly regarded at all, and now 30 years after his death suddenly the serious critics are doing essays on the guy. Go figure.

[ohtani's jacket]

I wonder if a more interesting example of what you're talking about is comedians like Jerry Lewis

Depends where. Jerry Lewis always had good reviews in France, including from serious critics. At the same time, Louis de Funes was not highly regarded at all, and now 30 years after his death suddenly the serious critics are doing essays on the guy. Go figure.

 

I've only seen the films he did with Bourvil and Gerald Oury, Le Corniaud and La Grande Vadrouille, but he seemed like an amusing little fellow. Comedy often gets shafted by critics. You didn't see too much written in English about Cantinflas or Toto.

[jdw]

Yeah, I didn't see your post at first.

 

Interestingly, the Informer is absent from the critics list, which I think fits in with the point I failed to make earlier. I know a lot of people have issues with or shy away from praising the Informer for political and moral reasons because they feel like it glorifies the IRA. Whether that's true or not, or how that plays out morally, that is a criticism that is outside the bounds someone else, like a director, might have for appreciating the movie as an expression of film art, if the are looking at it from a strictly technical and artistic perspective.

I think both sets of list have movies that people might shy away from praising. Seven Women on the critics list? You get some interesting/different/odd movies getting votes in these polls.

 

I think we might also be dealing with a certain level of Critic in the poll, at least in the when I first came across the poll back in the 80s when Roger would talk about it. They didn't hand them out to anyone, but usually Top Critics, which tended to like things on the more artistic level. They may hand them out to a wider set now... but I also don't think everyone listed over on Rotten Tomatoes is getting one. So the Critics Poll might not represent Average Critics very well.

 

On the other hand, my guess is that the directors who get ballots aren't really representative of Average Directors either.

[Dylan Waco]

Larry Matysik is down on Lawler too, it's not an uncommon view from guys of that era.

Conversely Jim Cornette thinks Lawler is the best of all time

[JerryvonKramer]

I think of Race and Matysik as 70s guys and Corny as an 80s guy. I think the 70s guys have a very particular conception of what a good wrestler should be.

 

Does Funk say what he thinks of Lawler anywhere? I'd be interested in that.

[PeteF3]

Hasn't Bockwinkel spoken well of Lawler? Maybe not to a GOAT level of praise, but AFAIK he's always spoken highly of his trips to Memphis.