Coffey Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 1993 WWF Superstars being added to the WWE Network is the best Christmas present. I marathoned & loved rewatching 1992! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted January 2, 2021 Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 13 episodes of Wrestling Challenge coming this month I watched the episode of Untold about Goldberg's undefeated streak. Very good perspectives on that time in WCW. Kevin Nash does not look well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted January 2, 2021 Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 8 minutes ago, flyonthewall2983 said: I watched the episode of Untold about Goldberg's undefeated streak. Very good perspectives on that time in WCW. Kevin Nash does not look well. Did Untold ditch the voice-only approach, or am I thinking of a different Network show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted January 2, 2021 Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 Of the episodes I've seen they never used a voiceover. People laud Bobby Heenan's work at the 92 Rumble as his best ever, but if there was ever anything equal to it in WCW it would have been that night at the Georgia Dome when Goldberg put away Hogan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted January 7, 2021 Report Share Posted January 7, 2021 On 1/1/2021 at 10:10 PM, flyonthewall2983 said: Kevin Nash does not look well Came here to post the same thing. He both looked and sounded like shit. Hope he’s okay. That aside, he came across as arrogant and clueless, and didn’t really add much of anything to the episode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted January 8, 2021 Report Share Posted January 8, 2021 He sent out a pretty cryptic tweet around New Years, and it sounded like he had a really rough year. Just to be a fan for a minute, the person I feel bad for in this story is Diamond Dallas Page, because he should have been the one to end the streak. Considering the fact that Bill suffered for some of the bumps he took in that Halloween Havoc match, it feels like they could have called an audible and given DDP the win to end it early. I personally feel that winning streaks can be as detrimental to someone as it can to get them over. It was so WCW that they didn't figure out the endgame for that aspect of his character until Nash did. It's even killed people for Vince. Tatanka was fairly popular, but he went down and down the card once they ended his undefeated streak, not really rationalizing as to why to give it to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 I get that, but with Goldberg, given he was still really over, some live-crowd boos notwithstanding - by far their biggest TV ratings and merchandise draw - they should have just continued the streak and should have booked everyone to job to him. Don't fix what's broken, don't kill the golden goose, etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 I think ending the streak would have done DDP more harm than good. It would have severely damaged a hot babyface act who got over organically (don't @ me with the "Bischoff's neighbor" crap, lol) because the fans would have resented him for it. Nash ending the streak was ludicrous, especially in light of what came before (Goldberg beating Hogan) and what happened after (the "fingerpoke of Doom"). Nash had been Hogan's underling at one point and therefore always the lesser of the two, so it wasn't believable at all. He had also cooled down considerably, so he wasn't nearly over enough at that point in time to 1. main event Starrcade 2. end the streak. It never, ever felt warranted or earned. Yes, it was a dirty finish with multiple people interfering and Scott Hall doing his best goofy midcarder Mountie cosplay with that atrocious shock stick finish, but still. If they were attempting to "protect" Goldberg, it didn't work. No one came out looking better after all that nonsense. And then the "fingerpoke" was the final fuck you from WCW to the audience, while Schiavone buried Mick Foley on commentary (per Bischoff's orders) and sent their dwindling fanbase switching over to USA Network in record numbers. So, who should have ended the streak? Hell if I know... WCW was pretty fucking lousy about making new stars, and I'm still shocked they somehow managed not to monumentally screw-up Goldberg despite all of the political pressure there must have been along the way to do so. If I'm forced to give an answer, I'd say Scott Steiner (but not cleanly). He was the closest thing they had to resembling a credible main event heel. If they hadn't completely screwed the pooch on Bret Hart, he might've been a viable choice. But with WCW being WCW, that ship had long sailed by the time Goldberg was ready to end the streak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 I'm of the firm belief that whenever the Streak would end, that it should happen clean as a sheet. You could make a new star if they beat Goldberg clean and you play your cards right. Kevin Sullivan agreed with me, and pitched an alternate finish where Goldberg would try to spear Nash and knock himself out against the turnbuckle or post. That would give Nash a monumental win, but at least protect Goldberg inasmuch as the only guy who could "beat" Goldberg would be himself. I'm also of the belief that you don't really worry about ending the Streak until it's clearly time to do it. After all, did Vince, Sr. and other promoters fret about Andre the Giant "going stale" in the '70s and early '80s? Of course not. When he was finally decisively beaten on a major stage that everyone saw and knew about, it was when the time was right and not before. And while there was that little out in the opening part of the match with Marella to protect Andre and give cause for an eventual rematch, in the end he put Hogan over without any gaga or interference or cattle prods. That said, viable Streakbuster options as I see it: - DDP. I agree with C.S., he wouldn't be my choice either. But he's listed because he had the one move that could believably put Goldberg down, which no one else can say. - Scott Steiner. Probably my #1 pick. You'd have a new monster heel and he was believable enough as being big and crazy enough to beat the unbeatable. - Chris Benoit. Okay, maybe my early-2000s smarkdom is showing. Forget about what happened afterward for a minute--Benoit was believable enough as a Giant Killer and a win would have erased the best-wrestler-not-to-hold-a-title choker label that he had, and would get him into main events where a lot of fans clearly wanted him. Obviously politically it was never going to happen, but in a perfect world he'd be an intriguing option. - Bret Hart. Not really making a "new" star, but in a perfect world where Goldberg keeps the belt, it's hard not to envision a Starrcade where Bret makes the ultimate Memorial Parade of Champions moment and triumphs over him. A properly built match for Starrcade '99 could have sold out SkyDome or Stade Olympique in Montreal, and the story just seems too good to pass up. - Sting. Again, maybe a waste, but like DDP he's another guy that I think WCW fans would have bought as being able to believably do it so I'm obliged to at least acknowledge him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 I think the correct answer is that they should not have ended the streak, and not even thought of ending the streak, unless Goldberg completely stopped working, and/or they had an extremely hot new heel who could be slotted into that situation. Andre was brought up and is a good point, yes, but, for instance, did Vince Sr worry about whom Bruno would put over clean in the 60s? Did Vince Jr worry about Hogan losing to someone in the 80s? Yeah, Warrior did not pan out, but that reinforces my point. Just don't worry about ending the streak until you have an objectively bad situation to manage, or when you have a really hot new young heel prospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 I do think Scott Steiner had potential to be that heel prospect, but he was always a question of reliability (not just whether he'd do something stupid to get himself suspended, but the constant injuries he was facing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 IMO the best way to do it would be to have Goldberg turn heel and have a babyface chasing it like a title. Having him stay babyface made it weird since you're making it so a heel gets the "rub" unless you do some kind of wacky bullshit finish that helps no one (aka what ended up happening). Then you can do something like having DDP win on a Diamond Cutter Outta Nowhere and it works for his scrappy babyface character. The moment WCW started inflating the streak past the point of believability (they've have him getting something like 20 wins between Nitros) should have been the start of the heel turn, have someone casually mention "hey Bill, that win total seems kinda suspect", he takes offense in that "heel obviously trying to get away with something" way, and off you go. Instead you had a situation where heels in both kayfabe and IRL were racing to be the first one to beat him and the psychology was just all wrong no matter what they would have ended up doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 From the sound of it, Goldberg never would have worked as a heel. Both in theory and very likely if you asked him, too. I mean they tried, but I don't think he ever fully bought into doing it. As far as Andre goes, I get the sense that him being undefeated was basically a secondary issue to the attraction. I'm sure it was almost an unspoken thing among promoters to make sure he didn't lay down for a three count, but it wasn't something they belabored in promoting him. 5 hours ago, MoS said: I get that, but with Goldberg, given he was still really over, some live-crowd boos notwithstanding - by far their biggest TV ratings and merchandise draw - they should have just continued the streak and should have booked everyone to job to him. Don't fix what's broken, don't kill the golden goose, etc etc Easier said than done with a company that was already red hot, with guys (some rightfully, some not) thinking they were responsible for things being where they are. They could only know what they lost once they did. Jobbing everyone out to him could have been more feasible if they found Goldberg before they had Hogan, and right when Bischoff just came into power. In that anemic situation the company was in in the early 90's, would he have been as huge? Probably not, but the company could have had a fighting chance to rise above with a roster of talent that they didn't need to steal from the WWF. Getting into daydream booking here but imagine in that scenario if they put Goldberg in Flair's place at the end of 93, or maybe extend Vader's title run into the next year. A younger Goldberg with Vader in perhaps his very physical prime, would have been a hell of a match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 I'd just like to point out that the role of the Fingerpoke in WCW's demise has been greatly exaggerated by revisionist history. If anything, it popped business in the short term as Superbrawl did either the third or fourth biggest buyrate in company history. It was the Hogan/Flair double turn at Uncensored that did the real damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 The Fingerpoke of Doom did not pop the business. Flair as a babyface against Hogan did. The Fingerpoke can't be underestimated as a symbolic moment of the company signing its own death warrant (the killing of Goldy, who had been their only hope in 98 while the creative was already going awry, basically for nothing, with the belt going straight back on Hogan like the last two years had not happened), especially since it was the same show when Schiavone uttered the infamous words about Mick Foley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 7 hours ago, flyonthewall2983 said: From the sound of it, Goldberg never would have worked as a heel. Both in theory and very likely if you asked him, too. I mean they tried, but I don't think he ever fully bought into doing it. Easier said than done with a company that was already red hot, with guys (some rightfully, some not) thinking they were responsible for things being where they are. They could only know what they lost once they did. I get what you are saying, but with Goldberg, it was pretty well-known that he was by far the biggest TV ratings and merchandise draw that WCW had. The Observers from that time period keep mentioning it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 Turning Goldberg sounds worse than what they actually did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 Goldberg did turn heel for a hot minute - remember him attacking cancer survivor Jim Duggan? - and it was brutal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert S Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 IIRC Goldberg's heel turn happened on a PPV (GAB 2000, I think), where Bischoff (during that short Bischoff + Russo run in the spring of 2000) hinted at something industry-changing happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 Not only did Bischoff promise a surprise that would change the face of the industry, he made a point of noting that there was nothing Vince McMahon could do about it. Of course, there's no way he would have stopped them from doing something so idiotic even if he had the power to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 I'm not saying turning Goldberg heel would have been the best idea, but if you're going to make a big deal about ending the streak it works better from a psychology standpoint to have it be a babyface chasing the cocky, undefeatable heel. Otherwise you're painting yourself into a corner where you have to do some bullshit to try to "protect" the previously undefeated babyface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fxnj Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 I'm digging the idea of giving Bret the win. That really seems the way to establish him as a big player in the company after his rocky start, similar to how WWE used the Undertaker's streak to re-establish Lesnar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted January 9, 2021 Report Share Posted January 9, 2021 Of course the obvious flaw in all these alternative ideas is believing WCW would have been able to carry out any of them without stepping on their own dicks, which they were doing at an alarming and hilarious rate at that point in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert S Posted January 10, 2021 Report Share Posted January 10, 2021 5 hours ago, NintendoLogic said: Not only did Bischoff promise a surprise that would change the face of the industry, he made a point of noting that there was nothing Vince McMahon could do about it. Of course, there's no way he would have stopped them from doing something so idiotic even if he had the power to. I am too lazy to look it up, but wasn't the initial idea to do some roster split like WWE eventually did? I know that was already the plan for Starrcade 97 (the Bischoff vs. Zbyszko match) but I think they wanted to do something similar in 2000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted January 10, 2021 Report Share Posted January 10, 2021 18 minutes ago, Robert S said: I am too lazy to look it up, but wasn't the initial idea to do some roster split like WWE eventually did? I know that was already the plan for Starrcade 97 (the Bischoff vs. Zbyszko match) but I think they wanted to do something similar in 2000. Yes, Bischoff has talked about that several times on his podcast. The plan was for Nitro to belong to the NWO and Thunder to belong to WCW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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