How profitabe was ECW?

[jdw]

I think ROH eventually found money marks. Was more talking about the earlier days when the need for draining massive amount of money out of the money mark were significantly lower than what Heyman was conning out of various sources.

[Memphis Mark]

Well ROH was purchased by Cary Silken . I guess you could call Silken a money mark . It is my understanding Silken was regarded to be a good business man. Under Silken ROH had low fixed cost which allow the company to turn a profit. If my memory is correct ROH business was strong until late 2007 . The CZW feud, the Danielson run , the Samoa Joe / CM Punk program , the NOAH wrestlers . the DRagon Gate talent all created a strong run for the company.

 

The bottom fell out for ROH for several reasons. The DVD pirates , TNA / WWE pulling talent from ROH and really poor booking from Gabe drove the company down in 2007/2008. ROH lost CM Punk , Samoa Joe , Colt Cabana , Matt Sydal , Christopher Daniels , AJ Styles , BJ Whitmer , Low Ki , Homicide , Jimmy Rave and Alex Shelley within a 18 to 24 month period. I thought Gabe booking in 2007/2008 was toxic to the company. The faction wars were rejected by the fans. Remember Hangmen 3 . I could be wrong that that is the way I recall the time period.

 

Unlike ECW and TNA , ROH was saved by Sinclair . Sure Sinclair runs ROH on the cheap . However they can make ROH profitable via multiple revenue steams. TV ad revenue ( local and national ) , ticket sales , dvd sales , vod sales , ppv sales , gimmick sales all boost the bottom. If Sinclair could lay a cable deal on top of their own tv network they could make ROH a winner.

 

I am not pretending to be a tv expert , but my understanding was that Heyman was paying for tv time. Jerry Jarrett said it is better to have no tv deal than a bad tv deal. I still believe a lot of the cash never made it to the bank. Hell Heymen did even pay guys like CW Anderson and Steve Corino. I cannot believe there was not enough cash on hand at the house shows to pay the workers something..

 

Anyway I miss ECW . Memphis , Southeastern / Continental ,Smoky Mountain , ECW and ROH are all time favorite promotions.I will admit that I did enjoy TNA during the weekly Nashville PPV days.

[Petey]

I don't know if I'd call Gabe's 2007/2008 booking "toxic".

 

I was a pretty big ROH fan from 04-08 and went to just about all the NY shows. I think the company took some gambles, both in terms of booking and in distribution, and they just about all failed.

 

The faction wars failed because ROH lost Aries to TNA right when it began and he was probably the top name in the angle. He came back a few months later to resume the story but it was already dead.

 

They tried PPV (which IIRC, Gabe was against) and it hurt the product because the PPV's didn't air until months after they were taped, so ROH was basically running with two sets of stories, one for the live events/DVD's and one for the PPV's. It was stupid.

 

Morishima won the ROH Title even though he only worked some shows. They waited too long to pull the trigger on Nigel and by the time they did, he wasn't hot anymore.

 

Gabe's last big angle was the Age of the Fall which had months upon months worth of build but just never got over as a main event angle with the fans. Regardless of their lack of overness, they got pushed hard.

 

I think ROH's declining popularity was a combination of bad booking, lack of talent and bad big picture decisions, all of which were connected with each other.

[Mad Dog]

I always thought ECW when out of business due to poor management. At that time wrestling was a cash business. Tickets , tapes , t shirts and other gimmicks were purchased with cash at the live shows. We are talking about hundreds and hundreds of thousand of dollars steaming into the business in the form of cash .

 

Did all of that cash find it way to the bank ? I don't think so . Skimming of the top is common in a cash business . So I don't think all of that money went to buy tv time or pay for talent. Only Paul Heymen and his cousin Steve know where all of the cah went and they ain't telling nobody.

 

I don't think it was a talent issue that killed ECW. Homicide , Low Ki , Samoa Joe , AJ Stytles , CM Punk, Colt Cabana, Chris Hero , Paul London , Bryan Danielson were are in the available talent pool as of 2001. It was mismanagement of their cash flow destroyed the company.

 

I'm not so sure of this. Mike Quackenbush said they had interest in Reckless Youth and himself but they declined joining ECW because of the drug culture in the back. A lot of those newer indy guys might have passed on working there for similar reasons.

[tim]

 

 

Morishima won the ROH Title even though he only worked some shows. They waited too long to pull the trigger on Nigel and by the time they did, he wasn't hot anymore.

I'm not sure. I think Morishima had one of the best title reigns ever in the company. Good matches and got over as a monster. Nigel's title win against him was a ridiculous moment, maybe the biggest crowd pop I've ever seen from ROH. Then the crowd decided to turn against him because he wouldn't wrestling while injured, or something, and ROH ran with it and it was weird.

[Dylan Waco]

 

I always thought ECW when out of business due to poor management. At that time wrestling was a cash business. Tickets , tapes , t shirts and other gimmicks were purchased with cash at the live shows. We are talking about hundreds and hundreds of thousand of dollars steaming into the business in the form of cash .

 

Did all of that cash find it way to the bank ? I don't think so . Skimming of the top is common in a cash business . So I don't think all of that money went to buy tv time or pay for talent. Only Paul Heymen and his cousin Steve know where all of the cah went and they ain't telling nobody.

 

I don't think it was a talent issue that killed ECW. Homicide , Low Ki , Samoa Joe , AJ Stytles , CM Punk, Colt Cabana, Chris Hero , Paul London , Bryan Danielson were are in the available talent pool as of 2001. It was mismanagement of their cash flow destroyed the company.

 

I'm not so sure of this. Mike Quackenbush said they had interest in Reckless Youth and himself but they declined joining ECW because of the drug culture in the back. A lot of those newer indy guys might have passed on working there for similar reasons.

 

 

I wouldn't believe anything Quack said.

 

[Mad Dog]

No, you have to take it with a grain of salt but that seems really consistent with his lifestyle.

[Johnny Sorrow]

 

 

 

 

I always thought ECW when out of business due to poor management. At that time wrestling was a cash business. Tickets , tapes , t shirts and other gimmicks were purchased with cash at the live shows. We are talking about hundreds and hundreds of thousand of dollars steaming into the business in the form of cash .

 

Did all of that cash find it way to the bank ? I don't think so . Skimming of the top is common in a cash business . So I don't think all of that money went to buy tv time or pay for talent. Only Paul Heymen and his cousin Steve know where all of the cah went and they ain't telling nobody.

 

I don't think it was a talent issue that killed ECW. Homicide , Low Ki , Samoa Joe , AJ Stytles , CM Punk, Colt Cabana, Chris Hero , Paul London , Bryan Danielson were are in the available talent pool as of 2001. It was mismanagement of their cash flow destroyed the company.

I'm not so sure of this. Mike Quackenbush said they had interest in Reckless Youth and himself but they declined joining ECW because of the drug culture in the back. A lot of those newer indy guys might have passed on working there for similar reasons.

I wouldn't believe anything Quack said.

Yeah, I don't buy "I wouldn't work somewhere because people do drugs backstage" at all . If that was true there'd be no promotion these guys would work for. It's not like working in ECW had a caveat where you had to participate in getting fucked up to work there.

[MikeCampbell]

I can see where ECW might have been profitable from 1994-1997 or so, when they were truly seen as an influence, had a roster that mostly worked cheap, and probably didn't run a ton of house shows. But, Paul E. spread himself, and the company, too thin to try to expand. Their TV taping method was outdated in an era where fans were used to either live shows, or shows taped a few days in advance. Not, a few weeks, and they catered to the internet fans, who knew what happened mere hours after each taping.

[Mad Dog]

He's pretty open about being a Reckless Youth hanger on in that era of his career. I think there's a difference working an indy where you show up, do your thing and leave vs. having to travel with that. Plus they were in their early 20s at the time and it was when Reckless Youth was pretty hot. It could be bullshit but I don't think it's totally unbelievable either.

[mookeighana]

Partially inspired by this thread, I had John Lister join #wrestlenomics radio last weekend so we could talk about his ECW book (Turning the Tables) along with British Wrestling, WWE Network Global Demand and more. I tried to touch on some of the topics that have been brought up.

 

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/indeedwrestling/2014/05/31/wrestlenomics-radio-w-john-lister

[funkdoc]

regarding the drug issue, i suspect that what people had a problem with was guys wrestling while fucked up. between sandman and RVD that was practically a tradition in ECW, and i could easily see that scaring away green indie guys

[MikeCampbell]

One of the jokes in the ECW locker room was that anyone who passed a drug test would be fired.

[Johnny Sorrow]

regarding the drug issue, i suspect that what people had a problem with was guys wrestling while fucked up. between sandman and RVD that was practically a tradition in ECW, and i could easily see that scaring away green indie guys

Again, I doubt the locker rooms and rings the green young Indy guys were in were meetings of the Quakers. And I still say that "I could have worked in ECW but 'drugs' " is bullshit.

[Negro Suave]

For what it is worth, I've heard that a few times. Too many drugs in the locker room. A lot of guys had matches with ECW guys in other indies and they would get they you should come talk to paul talk or something similar. You'll hear bunches of stories like that for people who have been around the New York/northern NJ indy scene at around that time. But there were just as many running to grab things who whomever was in town trying to get an introduction to someone.

[Hollinger.]

Even being in a lot of indie locker rooms now, I can tell you that there are a lot of guys who won't work with people who are fucked up. And considering the guys that ECW was starting to bring in at the very tail end, Reck and Quack were in that same circle. While it may not be the full story, I can definitely see them hesitating in part because of the locker room culture.

[goc]

There's also that whole thing about how EVERYONE knew a lot of ECW guys weren't getting paid what they were supposed to. If the bigger stars in the company aren't getting their checks, it's not exactly a ringing endorsement to go be a brand new guy there, especially if you have reservations about the drug culture on top of it.

[Bierschwale]

Plus, speaking of Quack and RY, they did go on to found the most successful "family-friendly" promotion of this era. Quack might have gone full carny over the last year, but I can buy it.