Puroresu vs Lucha Libre vs American Wrestling?

[ohtani's jacket]

They're less invested so they care less about questionable booking decisions, talented guys not getting their proper due, etc. They can zoom in on the positives and enjoy it with no anxiety.

 

But by the same token, people who are invested in Daniel Bryan, etc., are going to enjoy the narrative heavy stuff more than people who are turned off by the commentators driving home the story line at every turn. Japanese wrestling has long been an alternative for people who are dissatisfied with the US product. We can drop the term "work rate" if people like, though I don't believe that WWE matches are as work heavy as New Japan main events, The point is that I don't think anything's really changed. People seek out Japanese wrestling because they're sick of John Cena and Randy Orton, etc. I would assume, from past experience, there are a great deal more people like that than fans who can enjoy Cesaro matches on NXT and Main Event and the latest five star Tanahashi bout.

[Bix]

I don't believe that WWE matches are as work heavy as New Japan main events

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

 

The point is that I don't think anything's really changed. People seek out Japanese wrestling because they're sick of John Cena and Randy Orton, etc. I would assume, from past experience, there are a great deal more people like that than fans who can enjoy Cesaro matches on NXT and Main Event and the latest five star Tanahashi bout.

You think there are more people in the western world in 2014 would seek out foreign language wrestling with guys who have funny names than would seek out WWE's own secondary product? Really?

 

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. Japanese wrestling is not inherently better than anything. Stop acting like if is.

[goc]

I agree with what Bix is saying about some people thinking that Japanese wrestling should just be taken for granted as "better" than everything else. Why? Because they do more moves or work at a faster pace? Well what if that is my big problem with it is that they do a bunch of big moves and hard strikes but they don't really get sold that much?

[ohtani's jacket]

 

I don't believe that WWE matches are as work heavy as New Japan main events

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

 

The point is that I don't think anything's really changed. People seek out Japanese wrestling because they're sick of John Cena and Randy Orton, etc. I would assume, from past experience, there are a great deal more people like that than fans who can enjoy Cesaro matches on NXT and Main Event and the latest five star Tanahashi bout.

You think there are more people in the western world in 2014 would seek out foreign language wrestling with guys who have funny names than would seek out WWE's own secondary product? Really?

 

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. Japanese wrestling is not inherently better than anything. Stop acting like if is.

 

 

New Japan main events tend to be longer and have more wrestling in them. I don't really see how that's disputable.

 

Who's talking about the number of people who watch WWE or Japanese wrestling? We're talking about hardcores, people who follow and watch wrestling online, and what they think of different wrestling styles. I don't think that Japanese wrestling is inherently better than anything else, but some people do and I don't see the point in pretending that it's not part of its appeal. The original poster asked whether there are people who still believe that modern Japanese wrestling outclasses US wrestling and I assume there still are since New Japan does very well in the WON voting.

[Bix]

 

 

I don't believe that WWE matches are as work heavy as New Japan main events

 

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

The point is that I don't think anything's really changed. People seek out Japanese wrestling because they're sick of John Cena and Randy Orton, etc. I would assume, from past experience, there are a great deal more people like that than fans who can enjoy Cesaro matches on NXT and Main Event and the latest five star Tanahashi bout.

 

You think there are more people in the western world in 2014 would seek out foreign language wrestling with guys who have funny names than would seek out WWE's own secondary product? Really?

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. Japanese wrestling is not inherently better than anything. Stop acting like if is.

New Japan main events tend to be longer and have more wrestling in them. I don't really see how that's disputable.

 

Who's talking about the number of people who watch WWE or Japanese wrestling? We're talking about hardcores, people who follow and watch wrestling online, and what they think of different wrestling styles. I don't think that Japanese wrestling is inherently better than anything else, but some people do and I don't see the point in pretending that it's not part of its appeal. The original poster asked whether there are people who still believe that modern Japanese wrestling outclasses US wrestling and I assume there still are since New Japan does very well in the WON voting.

What do you mean by "more wrestling," though? Is this like when Dave Meltzer would do show reports and say certain matches didn't have any "wrestling" without explaining what he meant? You're using empty buzzwords that don't mean anything. WrestleMania was built around Bryan Danielson having two long showcase matches, including a brilliant match with Triple H that would have historically been described as "Japanese style."

 

Also, nowadays at least, the most vocal NJPW fans are those who follow it in addition to WWE, not as an "alternative."

 

And NJPW is not "Japanese wrestling" in the way that you're using the term. It is a single company that happens to be in Japan. Nobody is paying attention to any other companies.

[ohtani's jacket]

If you compare Bryan/Hunter with something like Naito/Ishii from Invasion Attack, which was roughly the same length, the chances are there were more moves and a greater amount of action in the New Japan match and more selling and storytelling in the Wrestlemania match. I'll take your word for it that most New Japan fans are also WWE fans, that may very well be the case. I think New Japan and WWE are pretty much synonymous with Japanese and US wrestling as this point in time.

[fxnj]

What do you mean by "more wrestling," though? Is this like when Dave Meltzer would do show reports and say certain matches didn't have any "wrestling" without explaining what he meant? You're using empty buzzwords that don't mean anything. WrestleMania was built around Bryan Danielson having two long showcase matches, including a brilliant match with Triple H that would have historically been described as "Japanese style."

Yes, never mind the soft strikes and repetitive formulas plaguing 99% of the other matches, Triple H did 1 tiger suplex in 1 match therefore WWE is working Japanese style now! (whatever the fuck that is) That must be some nice kool-aid.

 

Also, nowadays at least, the most vocal NJPW fans are those who follow it in addition to WWE, not as an "alternative."

And NJPW is not "Japanese wrestling" in the way that you're using the term. It is a single company that happens to be in Japan. Nobody is paying attention to any other companies.

 

This is bullshit. I watched a few Wrestlemania matches and that's it as far as what I've seen from WWE in the last 6 months. Also, KENTA/Sugiura currently has 60k views on Youtube and KENTA/Marufuji from last year has nearly 100k. That's a hell of a lot more than the people on here and DVDVR who would prefer WWE B-show matches over high-end puro because it doesn't have enough said soft strikes and repetitive formulas.

 

It's an irrelevant point anyway, since the amount of people watching a product has little bearing on the product actually being put out. It makes no sense to say Japanese wrestling isn't "inherently better" like it's some big revelation because nothing can be "inherently better" than something else. The point is, there are differences and to deny this by trying to group everything, including WWE, into one "Japanese style" is laughable. The differences are clearly evident in the preferences that people have in watching certain matches over others. This is what the OP was asking about. The fact that we are answering his question makes your claim that people like Japanese wrestling just because it's Japanese wrestling utterly ridiculous. Thanks for the laughs, though.

[Bix]

If you compare Bryan/Hunter with something like Naito/Ishii from Invasion Attack, which was roughly the same length, the chances are there were more moves and a greater amount of action in the New Japan match and more selling and storytelling in the Wrestlemania match. I'll take your word for it that most New Japan fans are also WWE fans, that may very well be the case. I think New Japan and WWE are pretty much synonymous with Japanese and US wrestling as this point in time.

I dunno, man, I like selling and storytelling.

[Bix]

 

What do you mean by "more wrestling," though? Is this like when Dave Meltzer would do show reports and say certain matches didn't have any "wrestling" without explaining what he meant? You're using empty buzzwords that don't mean anything. WrestleMania was built around Bryan Danielson having two long showcase matches, including a brilliant match with Triple H that would have historically been described as "Japanese style."

Yes, never mind the soft strikes and repetitive formulas plaguing 99% of the other matches, Triple H did 1 tiger suplex in 1 match therefore WWE is working Japanese style now! (whatever the fuck that is) That must be some nice kool-aid.

Read what I wrote more closely: "would have historically been described as 'Japanese style.'" As in it was worked like a cross between something like HHH-Benoit from No Mercy 2000 (a match that was commonly referred to as being worked "Japanese style" or "New Japan" style at the time) and a long Bryan main event style match (which are a lot more Japan-influenced than most WWE main event matches).

 

How is WWE any more repetitive and formulaic than current New Japan? Why are you demanding that WWE's talented professionals hit each other unsustainably hard so as to copy the country with the most wrestlers who have either died of brain injuries or suffered catastrophic brain damage?

 

What the heck are you talking about with Kool Aid drinking? WWE has a lot of great, great, pro wrestling, and they're no longer charging unsustainable prices for the big shows the way New Japan is. If there's enough great wrestling on TV for free and otherwise available cheap/easily (WWE Network), I feel less of a need to seek it out. Are you angry the only guy under contract from the Magical Land of Workrate and Robot Dogs is stuck in developmental?

 

This is bullshit. I watched a few Wrestlemania matches and that's it as far as what I've seen from WWE in the last 6 months. Also, KENTA/Sugiura currently has 60k views on Youtube and KENTA/Marufuji from last year has nearly 100k. That's a hell of a lot more than the people on here and DVDVR who would prefer WWE B-show matches over high-end puro because it doesn't have enough said soft strikes and repetitive formulas.

It's an irrelevant point anyway, since the amount of people watching a product has little bearing on the product actually being put out. It makes no sense to say Japanese wrestling isn't "inherently better" like it's some big revelation because nothing can be "inherently better" than something else. The point is, there are differences and to deny this by trying to group everything, including WWE, into one "Japanese style" is laughable. The differences are clearly evident in the preferences that people have in watching certain matches over others. This is what the OP was asking about. The fact that we are answering his question makes your claim that people like Japanese wrestling just because it's Japanese wrestling utterly ridiculous. Thanks for the laughs, though.

 

All of the recent NJPW I've seen is a lot more repetitive than current WWE in the ring, barring stuff that's repetitive by design (certain house show matches). Cesaro had a crazy run of something like 7 very good to great matches (Cena, Orton, Zayn, Bryan, Big E, Elimination Chamber, and w/ Swagger vs Christian/Sheamus) within a a 2-3 week period in February. The Cena match was a very legit MOTY candidate. Each match is completely different.

 

If you think there aren't really people who watch Japanese wrestling solely because it's Japanese wrestling, you should consider yourself lucky. There are a whole let less than there used to be, but it was still fairly common until western interest in the Japanese scene as a whole (vs the renewed interest in NJPW thanks to the IPPVs) completely nosedived.

 

Having said all that: What are you so ANGRY about? "Kool-aid drinking! Bullshit!" Dude, it's just wrestling. We don't like the same wrestling. You like NJPW more than most of the posters here. Good for you. Just don't make a fool of yourself being so pompus about it. You're not a better or smarter person because you enjoy Hiroshi Tanahashi matches and Shibata half-shooting on people.

 

I love great Japanese wrestling. Seeing Kenta Kobashi vs. Samoa Joe is still my favorite live wrestling experience. There's just not that much really notably GREAT Japanese wrestling anymore that would be worth my time when I already have to spend as much time as I do on WWE for work, and there's too much effort put into appealing to fans of the very worst things about Japanese wrestling with the continued legit head shots etc. It's not that different from why I don't watch much indie wrestling anymore: The stuff I liked got sapped out and the stuff I didn't like got amplified.

[Dylan Waco]

Soft strikes is an odd criticism to make of a company that includes Luke Harper, Sheamus, Wade Barrett and Antonio Cesaro among others. I mean sure there are guys with soft strikes in the WWE, some with really, really bad ones. But then New Japan's most heavily touted worker is a guy who's strikes aren't exactly awe inspiring and are often horrendous.

[sek69]

My two cents on the issue as someone who tries to watch CMLL weekly is that it seems Mexico is in the same phase US indies were in the 2000s where everyone was trying to do MOAR FLIPZ, and AAA is like what ECW would be if it never went out of business and somehow relocated south of the border.

[Badlittlekitten]

I can't speak for Lucha but personally I don't think anything in Japan comes close to WWE and it's been that way for several years. Somebody made the comparison between current WWE vs 90s All Japan. Whilst All Japan was the most consistently great promotion in a dire decade for US wrestling (with the exception of 92, where WCW smoked it), I often found myself tiring of watching the same three expressionless blokes and Kobashi fighting each other all the time. And the style started taking a turn for the worst as early as 95. It's current WWE for me. I'll also take 80s All Japan, which had more variety and engaging workers.

[goc]

The only thing in the past decade that was heavily pimped about Japanese wrestling that I watched and actually got into was the New Japan/Z1 feud. I really liked that feud because all the guys worked like they hated each other, and the 6 mans and tags were really fun. But even then, once it got into Masato Tanaka vs. Koji Kanemoto singles matches it started to lose my interest.

 

Yes, Japanese style has "more wrestling" if you mean they hit each other more and do more moves. But that comes at the expense of selling most of it. I'm just not a big fan of the "fighting spirit" idea that you could get right back on your feet and fire up the last time I hit you with a clothesline but when I bounce off the ropes and do it again now it's the finish.

[Big Rob]

Why would anyone need a "workrate alternative" to 2014 WWE? We're talking about the promotion where Cesaro had a 2-3 week run of great matches on every show a couple months ago, right? Where two of the best matches of the last year were Bryan Danielson doing his ROH main event style...that WWE, right? Why would anyone want a "head dropping epic every night" after doing that literally killed Misawa? What's wrong with promos and storylines?

 

I came in here to say pretty much the same thing - WWE right now might be the best it's ever been for the sheer amount of very good to great matches put out on TV and PPV. Granted, the amount of TV they have these days makes that a somewhat unfair comparison to, say, 1980, but they've had multiple TV shows for years now but they've really hit another level since mid-late 2013.I still enjoy watching the bits of lucha and puro that gets recommended to me, and working in the British scene I see a lot of talent there, but for me WWE is the standard for wrestling in 2014.

[Ryan Faulconer]

I'd say that lucha has always looked to me like the greatest wrestling in the world. I'm not saying Japan and US suck either. It is just so different compared to what we get from the American or Japanese promotions. I used to try and put it into words but a few boards crashing and erasing everything I used to try and explain really sapped my enthusiasm for writing long windedly about it. Now I just watch my favourite lucha or indies while surveying WWE's shows each week to get what I want to out of it.

 

WWE has never looked better on TV on a week to week basis. The addition of the third hour to RAW helped so much in improving the quality of matches.

 

Japanese wrestling has definitely declined in interest among the few boards I read online.

[Edwin]

 

My question is simple just how well does everyone think that american pro wrestling/lucha measures up to puroresu on a match quality basis? It's pretty much widely accepted that 90's puro easily outclasses it's American/lucha counterparts (or does it?) so I was just wondering if people felt that this was also the case with the following decade and the current wrestling scene?

Are there any American/lucha matches that people hold in the same high regard as the top puroresu matches or perhaps in some cases even better? I know plenty of people that think the best Ring of Honor matches do but then ROH was probably the nearest America has gotten to wrestling a similar style to the puro scene anyway so this kind of makes sense. The WWE on the other is a different matter entirely, as we all know that American pro wrestling offers us something that puro and lucha simply cannot and that there are many different factors that affect your enjoyment of wrestling so please feel free to share your thoughts...

 

First off, I used to be a huge Japanese wrestling from the late 90's until recent years when I just lost interest in it since it's quality has downed a lot. I still frequently read results on Puro Love and every now and again watch the New Japan 1/4 Dome shows or may watch a match here and there on YouTube, but it's just no the same anymore to me.

 

Anyway, there's been plenty of great American and Lucha matches over the years that are equally as good/if not better than a lot of the matches that have happened in Japan and that are 1,000 times better than most of the highly regarded ROH matches. It does depend on your preferences though. I know some people like Ditch who may enjoy the highly regarded 6/9/95 match more than the highly regarded Atlantis/Villano III mask match, yet I know some Lucha fans will disagree with him and doesn't mean that the AJPW tag match was better nor worse than the mask match since they're both great match in very diverse styles.

 

The only reason you may assimilate ROH with Japanese wrestling is because they've taken some of the elements from Japanese wrestling and have tried to replicate them which in a lot of cases they have failed to do. Throwing streamers at some wrestlers, dropping your opponent on his head for the sake of getting a pop and hitting each other hard doesn't mean they're the closest there is to Japanese wrestling.

 

That's kind of why WWE has so much emphasis placed on promos and storylines, since the guys need a crutch when they simply can't go out and do a head dropping epic every night.

Huh?

 

Like I said before, I used to be a huge Japanese wrestling fan, but I really don't understand what head dropping epic even means...

 

I just hope you're not implying a great match necessarily needs head drops to be epic or to be considered good, because I can name a lot of great matches from over the years where there hasn't been a single head drop, yet it's still better than that of many matches featuring numerous head drops.

 

Also I hope you do realize that a lot of the highly regarded AJPW matches from the 90's aren't highly regarded because the guys in it constantly dropped themselves on their heads.

 

Why would anyone need a "workrate alternative" to 2014 WWE? We're talking about the promotion where Cesaro had a 2-3 week run of great matches on every show a couple months ago, right? Where two of the best matches of the last year were Bryan Danielson doing his ROH main event style...that WWE, right? Why would anyone want a "head dropping epic every night" after doing that literally killed Misawa? What's wrong with promos and storylines?

 

The people who watch Japanese wrestling solely because it's Japanese wrestling drive me up a wall.

Well said on all accounts.

 

One of the things I dislike the most about Japanese wrestling fans that aren't Japanese is the fact that they have this weak mentality where everything that happens in Japan is so much better than anything WWE can produce and try and bash WWE on any account they can to look cool online or something and that itself is an ironic mentality since Japanese wrestling fans who are indeed Japanese who live in Japan support their local organizations don't even have this type of mentality.

[ohtani's jacket]

Japanese wrestling fans who are indeed Japanese who live in Japan have no real reason to watch WWE, and the last guy I met who had the most casual of interests in the WWE said his favourite wrestler was Triple H. So there you go.

[anotherspammer]

OJ, have you noticed any change in casual/mainstream interest in wrestling in Japan over the past few years? When I was there 10+ years ago, I rarely met anybody outside of wrestling shows that paid any attention to it, and the very few I did meet were more interested in WWE than any Japanese fed.

[BillThompson]

I've been thinking a lot lately about Lucha, and how it's regarded among even "smart" wrestling fans. Obviously here, and a few other select places like DVDVR or Wrestling KO, Lucha is respected and viewed as just as valuable as American, European, or Japanese wrestling. However, in a lot of places it seems like Lucha is always treated as the neglected child. Best of lists are always populated with tons of wrestlers, matches, angles, and whatever else from American and Japanese feds, but anything Lucha showing up is a big deal because it feels like a rarity when it does.

 

An article at Voices of Wrestling spurred this line of thought further, because in a "best of the first quarter of 2014" article there was only a cursory mention of anything Lucha (then again, I've become increasingly apathetic towards the loud "our opinion is fact" approach of VoW so maybe that says something). Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but for instance something like the 80s Lucha set seems like such a big deal to me because of how much focus we place on Japanese and American wrestling as compared to Lucha.

 

Perhaps I'm completely wrong and off base, I'm open to that possibility.

[dawho5]

I have to agree with the above poster on things like RoH and "head dropping epics". I've always had trouble watching American indy guys try real hard to emulate puroresu guys by throwing hard elbows and doing dangerous moves. It just seems so overly contrived to me. And if you've read anything from 1995 on in my All Japan topic you know how I feel about head drops being used liberally. I mean, if you look at 6/3/94, there are very, very few head drops. It's been months since I watched it, but I think there are 3 at most. And each one is done for a very specific reason. The truly sad part of 1990s All Japan and 2000 and later Japanese wrestling (to me) is how they took the obvious stuff from AJPW, the head drops and the strike exchanges, and started using them with no thought or attention paid to the why and where in the match they happened. It's as if they watched all of the out of control Kobashi stuff and ignored the early Misawa/Kawada matches (and ignored Taue completely). I mean, when you really get into it, Taue very rarely stayed in strike exchanges too long. H'd either go with a big running big boot or standing enzuigiri, or a choke toss after a few chops that had no effect. Because he knew his strikes otherwise were not up to snuff with what was coming back at him. So he changed it up according to what Akira Taue did well. That's the kind of thing that never registered with all the Japanese and other wrestlers around the world who started doing strike exchanges. It's very much along the same lines as something I read (and agree with) in the Triple H thread. He certainly loves his heroes and tries his best to do what they did in the ring. But he never really got into why they did it and when they did it, and why they chose that moment to do it. So it ends up coming off as a cheap knock-off of that thing that he loves so much. he looks like he's going through the motions of it, because he is. Same goes for those who take 1990s All Japan stuff and put it into their wrestling just to put it in there.

 

Don't get me wrong, I know there are fans out there that think long match + head drops = epic. And I know there are fans who think everything that comes out of Japan is sooo much better than wrestling from the States. I'd like to think that this particular corner of the internet doesn't deal as much with that kind of wrestling fan. Sure, people have their preferences, but I would say that most people here keep a fairly open mind about wrestling and are willing to give things a second or third look if enough other posters call it good. And most are willing to take another look at something they consider great if enough other people talk about the things that aren't right with it.

[ohtani's jacket]

OJ, have you noticed any change in casual/mainstream interest in wrestling in Japan over the past few years? When I was there 10+ years ago, I rarely met anybody outside of wrestling shows that paid any attention to it, and the very few I did meet were more interested in WWE than any Japanese fed.

 

I don't think anything's really changed in the past ten years. The most visible wrestlers are the ones who make it onto the variety shows, and successful talent like Hokuto and Sasaki are almost more famous for being TV talent now than professional wrestlers. Wrestling is more or less a niche hobby.

[Zenjo]

Puro is certainly more widely viewed than Lucha by the IWC. I think that it's a lot easier to transition from US wrestling to Puro compared to Lucha. More people seem to have a problem with not understanding the commentary rather than not understanding the various styles in Japan. When I first started watching over a decade ago I loved it immediately.

 

With Lucha there are more differences with the match structure and rules. The moves, movement, bumping and selling can look quite alien until you get used to it. It's unique and heavily stylised. This all makes it less accessible. It wouldn't be true to say I disliked Lucha at first, but I wasn't a converted fan. I watched a number of the classics and quite enjoyed some of them. I didn't enjoy the style enough to seek out more Mexican wrestling.

 

Years later when I began viewing the Yearbooks I saw Lucha as the bonus stuff, with US and Japanese footage being the main attraction. Since then I've gained a deeper appreciation of the style and become a much bigger fan. Unlike Puro it didn't come easily to me and required quite a bit of viewing. It's hugely rewarding once you figure out (most of the time) what's going on.

[ohtani's jacket]

Perhaps I'm completely wrong and off base, I'm open to that possibility.

 

Lucha has always been the poor cousin of Japanese and American wrestling. Actually, the reason I call my lucha blog the rather dull and unimaginative name of "Great Lucha" is that some guy on DVDVR once said lucha can never be great. It's always had a stigma attached to it, but on the positive side it's a lot more accessible than it used to be. You can now find a lot of the greatest matches online whereas only a few years ago lucha had very little presence on the internet.

[Edwin]

The only reason Japanese pro-wrestling has gained a lot more fanfare stateside online is because of the huge gain in popularity of US indy wrestling in the early 00's namely ROH. ROH was really what got a lot of US indy fans into Japanese wrestling since a lot of their wrestlers blatantly knocked off moves they saw in Japanese wrestling, they name dropped Japanese wrestlers in interviews, they brought over wrestlers from Japan and they did shows in Japan. However they didn't do the same with lucha and that's why lucha isn't as largely accepted online by foreign fans as Japanese wrestling is.

 

Had ROH endorsed lucha more than they did Japanese wrestling and I assure you US indy wrestling would've been crossing the border to watch Atlantis and Blue Panther wrestling live instead of flying across the globe to watch Hiroshi Tanahashi and Shinsuke Nakamura. There would've been less injuries in US indy wrestling too since a lot of the guys would've been locking on complicated submission moves instead of throwing their opponent on their head for the sake of getting a big "OH!" pop from the 50 fans in attendance.

 

IWA-MS running the Strong Style Tournaments pretty much proved that US indy wrestling is a really bad knockoff of Japanese wrestling as it's just a bunch of fat, white Americans hitting themselves really hard and dropping themselves on their heads for the sake of doing it in a broken ring for $40 in front 25 people in some high school's gym or basketball court. This is something that I'm sure Hashimoto would be embarrassed by if he'd been alive and saw it.

 

The pathetic You can't watch this type of wrestling on Monday nights mentality was something that a lot of former US indy wrestling fans turned Japanese wrestling fans carried over and that's why they think anything done in Japan immediately is better than anything done in the WWE.

[fxnj]

Also I hope you do realize that a lot of the highly regarded AJPW matches from the 90's aren't highly regarded because the guys in it constantly dropped themselves on their heads.

They're highly regarded because said "guys in it constantly dropped themselves on their heads" in a way that gets massive emotional engagement out of people even watching it 20 years later. I'll explain. The things in that first post rest on some pretty basic assumptions

 

1. Wrestling is never going to top the stories seen in books or the acting seen in movies. Its main advantage is the same as "real sports" like boxing and MMA in its appeal to the strong primal aspects of human nature (the fight-or-flight response) through its ability to project a sense of legit violence and perseverance.

 

2. Therefore, a match's quality is proportionate to its ability to project a sense of legit violence and perseverance.

 

3. Head drops are some of the most violent looking moves out there.

 

4. When actually sold well (as in not the American indy shit you're bashing), matches with such brutal looking moves are more engaging (as in higher chance of "marking out" for them) than ones that don't.

 

5. Hence, "head dropping epic" to summarize the disparity between the level of engagement achieved by the best puro matches and what WWE can safely allow its performers to do.

 

I'm not sure why this is such a point of controversy. I watched the Cena/Cesaro match after Bix called it a MOTYC and it's not like the guys were going out and creating a Greek tragedy. It was definitely a workrate match and there's nothing wrong with that since the idea that a match's workrate is somehow separate from its storytelling value is kind of stupid anyway. But let's just not pretend there's some huge gap between what folks get out of WWE and what others get out of puro. Talking about wrestling that actually is like Greek tragedy, just look at that Undertaker/Lesnar Wrestlemania match. That whole thing was a fucking amazing bit of modern tragedy done on a pro wrestling stage, and most WWE fans shit on it. Instead, the match most seemed to be calling the MOTN was that "ROH style" Bryan/HHH match. And the most talked-about spot from that was a head drop. Which just proves what I'm saying.