Should John Cena Turn Heel?

[JerryvonKramer]

I voted "no". Cena can just be booked as Cena, don't turn him. He can be booked against anyone I think as the one true "major name" in the buesiness. Against a heel, he can just play his usual and the fans can do what they want, as they've been doing. Against another face, he can play the subtle heel, as he's teased before on occasion.

 

I think turning him heel loses the one truly unique and interesting thing about Cena and risks making him feel more like a failure than a strange phenomenon. Keep him face and resist turning him and the longer it goes on, the longer it remains as a perennial talking point. Stick with it for as long as possible ...

[goodhelmet]

So they should just play it safe? Does Cena turning heel kill house show business or do people turn out to boo the heel while cheering the new hero? I also don't think it is a case of people just playing to the camera. I think alot of people just stay home instead of going to house shows altogether. That is an entire different problem which is that they are stale product. How do you jumpstart a stale product? First, you don't have Cena as your number one babyface.

 

As for kids, they shouldn't be catering to kids because it's a show built on violence.

[Loss]

Who is the new hero? I want a name.

 

Not appealing to kids is idealistic and something that would cost them way more money in a money-losing year.

 

Again, Cena doesn't have to be the number one babyface to be a babyface.

 

How do you know people just stay home? Attendance on shows Cena headlines is higher than attendance on shows he doesn't.

[Loss]

I'm not opposed to turning him. I just think there should be a better option for his spot who is already ready to go first. And there isn't.

[Loss]

Cena put it well on Austin's podcast. He said sometimes guys he's working with will tell him after the match they feel bad for him because the crowd was booing him. He'll respond that they should be the ones who are upset, because people are so preoccupied with reacting to Cena that it's actually taking away from the crowd reaction of Cena's opponents, not Cena.

[goodhelmet]

 

How do you know people just stay home? Attendance on shows Cena headlines is higher than attendance on shows he doesn't.

 

Because more people attend TV tapings than they do house shows.

 

 

Who is the new hero? I want a name.

 

As currently booked, nobody. If they got behind somebody, it will happen. Nobody thought Cena was good enough to be the guy in 2006. It wasn't until 2007 that he really found his groove as "the Guy". But they gave him the green light.

 

Here are some names that could be huge if they booked them properly and they aren't all great wrestlers...

 

Ryback

Titus (may be too old)

Dean Ambrose

Cesaro

Luke Harper

Hornswaggle

Roman Riegns

All American Jack Swagger

Dolph Ziggler

Seth Rollins

 

If you get the machine behind you, then people will perceive you as a star. The big key is not recycling old names from the past.

[soup23]

I voted yes.

 

I understand the notion that someone should be waiting in the wings for Cena before he is turned but I do think their is opportunity for that to happen if they provide a substantive push behind the new heir apparent once a turn for Cena is justified.

 

I do think Cena is hotter now than Hogan was in 1996 but time wise, Cena has been a top guy since Mania 21 or 9.5 years. Hogan legdropping Macho was around 12.5 years after he beat Shiek. Also, when Hogan turned, their wasnt a justifiable star waiting to be the #1 babyface. We know that became Sting in the crow angle and how that got botched but Sting had a horrible track record of drawing on top up to that point in time. The other top babyfaces in the company? Luger, someone who still has a stigma of being a shit draw decades later but even at his peak, it is not like he was a historically great draw. Flair feels old hat. DDP was just starting to rise up. Macho was old hat. There really wasn't much there. NWO was a great concept and Hogan fulfilled it to the fullest.

 

I have a lot of faith in Dean Ambrose and think he could possibly be ready to be that "next" guy. Bryan was getting there to before his injury but I still think Ambrose has more mainstream appeal overall.

[Loss]

If one of those guys can be built up as Cena's superior, then yeah, turn him heel after that happens. They are already grooming Reigns for that spot, and who knows, he may start outdrawing Cena on house shows and selling more t-shirts.

 

If that happens, great. If that doesn't happen, they have basically blown off a reliable demographic that brings in millions of dollars in merch money every year to appease a vocal group of people who are never going to stop watching anyway ... and who will likely just start cheering heel John Cena anyway. He's already the biggest heel he can be to those who boo him.

[goodhelmet]

If it seems like I am advocating turning him heel on the next RAW, I am not. However, it could be pulled off by Survivor Series or the next big quarter report. I also don't think it would tank business. I think people would be excited and refreshed by a Cena heel turn. It automatically takes a stale product and makes it hot.

[Loss]

The more I think about it, the more I think John Cena has already been both the top babyface and top heel for WWE for a decade, and WWE has worked hard to keep him in both roles. This makes me think the answer to freshening things up more than anything is fresh faces in the main event picture.

[Coffey]

I just can't foresee WWE every really doing anything risky since becoming publicly traded. I just think back to guys like Daniel Bryan or Fit Finlay getting fired over things that should have been complete non-issues. It's hard to be a program based around physicality to elicit an emotion when everytime you do something that cause people to express emotion, you have to apologize & take action.

 

I used to put some blame on the TV-PG rating but I think the rating isn't so much as the problem as what WWE interprets PG in 2014 as is. It's not like I'm clamoring for women running around in thongs again, or guys bleeding in every match...but it would be nice if someone got accidentially busted open in a cage match if you didn't have to see them get medically attended to mid-match from a ref wearing latex gloves.

 

Should John Cena turn heel? I mean, honestly, at this point, I don't think it matters if he does or not. I just don't feel like anything would be any different. To me, it would just be like when Randy Orton turned heel, or anyone else. All that changes is his opponents. I don't think alignment changes matter anymore; kayfabe is dead. The fans know about his Make-A-Wish contributions. They know he's dating Nikki Bella. They've seen him on Howard Stern & Nickelodeon shows. He's been humanzied. There's not really any mystique anymore. I more think he'll just stay a babyface (or whatever he is now) because WWE don't want to rock the boat. Don't want to worry stockholders...

 

*IF* WWE want to turn him heel, I think they have a pretty good story laying in the weeds with John Cena becoming obsessed with breaking Ric Flair's title record until he's forced to take drastic measures to do so.

[JerryvonKramer]

Incidentally, I've been looking at MSG cards from the past decade as part of another conversation, and there is a direct 1:1 correlation between Cena in the main event and sell-outs. CM Punk as champ was not selling out MSG. Taker vs. Kane part 245 wasn't selling out MSG either. Vince vs. HHH sold it out in 2006, but after that it seems that Cena pops the gate, although I will note that Punk vs. JBL in 08 was a sellout (John Cena & Batista vs Chris Jericho & Kane, semi-main).

[Dylan Waco]

Up until the Summer of 2011 I was one of those people that felt they should never really turn Cena unless it was something like having him cheat to beat The Undertakers streak (I still contend leaving that match on the table is one of the most idiotic things this company has done in decades). What changed my perspective was not the Punk stuff, but rather the night Rey won a tournament for what ended up being an interim title, and then Cena got a title shot the same night (even though he was completely fresh and hadn't had to beat anyone) and then beat Rey for the belt the same night he won it. That came across as a real douchey, heel thing to me, but more than that it killed wrestling forever for my daughter. Up until that point she was a big fan of the WWE, bought tons of merch (action figures, masks, John Cena chains, et) and was incredibly invested in characters (trying to rush the ring to fight CM Punk after he cheated to beat Jeff Hardy live, writing a letter to the WWE, being terrified of bad guys, et.). That night was almost like a toggle switch going off with her. She thought Cena was a jerk for what he did, and by November of that year she had pretty much sworn off wrestling almost entirely because she had a visceral hatred for John Cena. Now I can't even get her to go to a live show with me unless it's a local indie fed - she we will watch Lucha with me and obscure indie feds, but she has no time for the WWE...because she hates John Cena.

 

The point is not that all young fans are like my child. While that anecdote is very real to me, I can also point to Cena getting an all time level pop the last time I saw him live (earlier this year) and being the biggest live gate and merch draw in the company by a clear margin. The point is that my daughters reaction really made me believe that the constancy of Cena, his portrayal as an entitled dick star and some of his more "unique" attributes (i.e. his ability to heel from injury really quickly) may hurt the WWE in hidden ways. Furthermore for much he same reasons, I began to see the Cena heel turn as something that might have more money drawing potential than keeping in the same slot year after year.

 

I do admit it's a massive gamble and I see both sides of this. On the one hand do you really want to throw away the one thing that has been consistent and stable for the unknown particularly during a massive money losing time for the company? On the other hand I really believe as long as Cena is the top babyface star there is zero chance of another hot period. More than that though I think as long as Cena is presented exactly as he is - even if there is an attempt to push him down the cards - it is going to be very hard to get over another 1A babyface. The reason is that people simply don't trust the company to go all the way through with elevating the next guy. For all the talk about how over Daniel Bryan was and is, he didn't draw nearly as well at live shows as Cena. Why? I don't know why for sure, but in talking to people I am always amazed at the number of fans who just assume Cena will ALWAYS be elevated back into the top spot no matter who else is around or how hot they get. To many fans, including fans that would not qualify as "hardcore" using the standards of this site or anything close to it, Cena is basically the equivalent of Taker, HHH or Rock during Mania season except he's there year round. He's always going to take up a top spot, if not the top spot. It's always going to be at the expense of others. While he could be used to get over new talent he won't be, or if he is they will almost immediately work to undermine it the first chance they get. These are things I hear all the time from people who have never been to wrestling message boards in their life. So it would not shock me if the failure of guys like Bryan and Reigns to draw on the road at the level you would hope for is wedded to the fact that at the end of the day no one REALLY believes they are top stars as long as John Cena is around.

 

Does this mean Cena has to turn heel? No, but I do think if they don't turn him heel it is going to be vastly more difficult to get over a new top babyface. I also think if they don't turn him heel the temptation is always going to be there to put him back into the top spot if somebody has a run of six bad weeks on the road and/or on t.v. And if they don't turn him heel they may in fact miss their window to make another star at his level, because he will not be around forever and the absolute worst thing that could happen is him retire and/or be forced out by injury while still in the same position he is in now effectively rendering everyone on the roster "second best" types who couldn't beat the real man.

 

To me it comes down to this - Do you want to hold steady at the level you are at, minimizing risk, and continuing to sell shirts at a huge clip? If that is your goal you keep Cena face forever. Or do you want to make an admittedly big gamble with the hope that it will heat up your product, something that I believe is necessary for the Network to have any chance of hitting it's goals? If that is your goal I think the idea of a Cena heel turn is something that at bare minimum has to be strongly considered.

[Coffey]

As for kids, they shouldn't be catering to kids because it's a show built on violence.

 

Kids also don't have any money and the marquee shows (RAW and PPVs) are both on school nights. So they have to talk their parents into letting them watch the violent show, stay up past bedtime AND spend money...

[goodhelmet]

Incidentally, I've been looking at MSG cards from the past decade as part of another conversation, and there is a direct 1:1 correlation between Cena in the main event and sell-outs. CM Punk as champ was not selling out MSG. Taker vs. Kane part 245 wasn't selling out MSG either. Vince vs. HHH sold it out in 2006, but after that it seems that Cena pops the gate, although I will note that Punk vs. JBL in 08 was a sellout (John Cena & Batista vs Chris Jericho & Kane, semi-main).

 

I am looking at Graham's site and they are running MSG once or twice a year. I haven't seen sell out since 2011 when ROCK popped Survivor Series. If you want to say Cena was well worth keeping a face prior to that time then I agree with you.

[kjh]

- Why is it better to attract older fans than younger fans? And while they can't be, why wouldn't WWE want to at least try to be everything to everyone? The whole idea behind making WWE as big as possible is to appeal to as many people as possible. I do think at some point they have to make a choice, but I'm not even sure that choosing older fans over younger fans is the best choice of the two, and I don't think that's something that can be based on personal opinion and gut feeling either. It would have to be based on actual data that we don't have.

 

It's worth noting that WWE attracted more young fans when they went out of their way to be politically incorrect and target the male 18-39 demographic than they do today. Make the product cool again and the kids audience will grow, if anything.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

 

If Cena turning is done to usher in a new era where some edginess and unpredictability is brought back to WWE, I'm all for it. But if WWE is just going to remain a safe, stale, corporate version of the product I fell in love with, then he's gotta stay face.

 

Like Hogan's turn or Austin's emergence, Cena turning needs to be part of a bigger overall direction for the company if it's going to be effective or have meaning.

 

Of course the idea is to change the overall direction and you use the biggest star you have as that catalyst.

 

 

If people thought the WWE was capable of being innovative enough to take on this direction shift, then they'd overwhelmingly vote to turn Cena. But, and I think rightfully so, people assume WWE is so risk-averse that, if they turn Cena, there's no way they'd have the balls to also ramp up their product's edginess and use a Cena turn to usher in a new era.

 

Right now, WWE is a bland, blatantly-scripted and mostly boring ballet/infomercial. I feel like if they turn Cena, it would stay that way -- only Cena would maybe do a few things differently so he can have a generic heel label slapped on him.

 

It kind of goes back to what you briefly touched on on your last podcast. When you're analyzing this stuff, you can look at it through the prism of what you would do if you were in charge, or try to come up with ideas that could plausibly fit into what has a realistic shot of actually happening in today's WWE.

 

Right now, it's totally unrealistic to expect that the major direction shift that would need to accompany a Cena heel turn would ever happen. Most people realize that, and are hesitant to turn Cena.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't disagree with that take, though I would note that I don't think the major direction shift is even possible without a Cena heel turn. Or at the very least it is massively unlikely.

[goc]

I had to vote No but I would like to vote Not Yet. Not until they are sure that Roman Reigns can be what they want. That's why I would have liked to see them NOT cool off Cesaro so they could have another guy to plug in like they did with Batista when the Orton push failed way back in 2004.

 

And I think they can use him in a way that keeps him out of the title picture and away from whoever they decide they want to push as his heir. The guy has a ton of past history at this point, I always thought it would be fun to have someone exploit that. John Cena needs an Eddie Gilbert to his Jerry Lawler, someone to twist his legacy and try and paint him as a fraud who used up the people who helped him get to the top. Bray Wyatt should have done a new take on the "This Is Your Life, Jerry Lawler" deal rather than whatever the hell they were doing.

 

They could have run weeks of past Cena allies and enemies coming to take their shot like Billy Kidman, B² Bull Buchanan, Redd Dogg, Rene Dupree, Carlito, the list goes on and on of guys they could bring in for one-shots like Batman being worn down before Bane breaks his back.

[Tim Evans]

Who is the new hero? I want a name.

 

Not appealing to kids is idealistic and something that would cost them way more money in a money-losing year.

 

Again, Cena doesn't have to be the number one babyface to be a babyface.

 

How do you know people just stay home? Attendance on shows Cena headlines is higher than attendance on shows he doesn't.

 

My answer would be Sami Zayn. I've been to a lot of shows with him on it and Kids love the guy. It would take probably a couple years of big time booking and big wins to get him even 1/2 as big a babyface as Cena but I think he could do it. I would say Bryan but I don't think the company will ever trust him again in that role.

[BillThompson]

Playing it safe is one of the things that is killing the appeal of the company right now. The truth is that a new boom will never happen if they are afraid to take chances and continue to play it safe. Turning Cena could, and should, work and allow for freshness to once again enter the presentation of the company. There's no real reason I can see to not turn him, because while he may make money now he won't be around forever and if they play it safe with him until he finally rides into the sunset the company will be in even worse shape than it is right now.

[sek69]

I tend to agree with others here that regardless the logistics of WWE turning Cena, I just don't see the company as its being run now having the testicular fortitude to make lasting changes. They're too tied in to toy sponsorships and fear of stockholders bailing to do anything that's going to rock the boat too hard.

[sek69]

...and really, how surprising is it given his history that we're saying that about a company still being run by Vince?

[Dylan Waco]

Not surprising at all since it's now a publicly traded company, with layers and layers of bureaucracy

[Johnny Sorrow]

Incidentally, I've been looking at MSG cards from the past decade as part of another conversation, and there is a direct 1:1 correlation between Cena in the main event and sell-outs. CM Punk as champ was not selling out MSG. Taker vs. Kane part 245 wasn't selling out MSG either. Vince vs. HHH sold it out in 2006, but after that it seems that Cena pops the gate, although I will note that Punk vs. JBL in 08 was a sellout (John Cena & Batista vs Chris Jericho & Kane, semi-main).

You have to disqualify any of those MSG shows that were RAWs, as those main events aren't announced ahead of time. So no one guy can be given credit or blame for a RAW not selling out.