Genichiro Tenryu

[jdw]

Genichiro Tenryu & Ashura Hara vs. Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu (8/29/88)

 

Long tags have never been this style's forte, IMO.

 

Which style?

[ohtani's jacket]

The All Japan style, though to be fair it's a criticism that could be extended to most Japanese promotions.

Genichiro Tenryu & Ashura Hara vs. Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu (8/30/88)

Rare to see the same match-up two nights in a row. I thought this had a much better beginning, focusing initially on the animosity between Jumbo and Tenryu and then on Tenryu and Hara trying to re-injure Jumbo's knee from the night before. You could possibly argue that Jumbo blew off the knee work a bit, but I thought he brought a high level of intensity to the bout and was involved in a number of clever payback spots. The transitions were really good and usually involved some form of stiff lariat or uppercut shot, and I also thought the nearfalls were effectively spaced both off the Yatsu german and the Tenryu powerbomb. Even more impressive was the fact that Tenryu using a table to attack Jumbo with, and Jumbo retaliating by throwing him over the barricade and using some plunder of his own, came across as being "in the moment" and not the forced momentum lifter it often is in these bouts. The match seemed to flow better, and I wasn't aware of how much time had elapsed when the ring announcer called 10 minutes then 20 minutes. There was a problem, however, with the phantom three count that occurred around the 25 minute mark. I didn't bother checking, but I suspect it was botched somehow. Sometimes that type of confusion can add to the drama, but here it took the wind out of their sails a bit. I also thought they leant a bit too heavily on the All Japan trope of partners saving each other from being pinned; to the extent that Hara wouldn't leave the friggin' ring. I was getting annoyed at Wada for not forcing him back to his corner, and I wasn't sure how I felt about the sandwich pin at the end. The sympathy for Tenryu was amazing, and man did Jumbo suplex him out of his boots. It was interesting to see Hara do the Kobashi spot from 6/9/95 and throw himself over his partner, but the sandwich pin felt a bit bush league. That's the kind of finish you'd expect to see in a comedy match or some squash match, not in a world title match. Other than that it was an excellent match and clearly better than the night before. No surprise then that it finished lower in the DVDVR voting than 8/29.

[elliott]

OJ, could you elaborate more on long tags not being AJ's forte?

 

Also, just some questions I had off the bat...

 

What are you considering long? 20+ minutes? 25+? 30 or more?

 

What is your favorite AJ tag?

 

The two most highly regarded AJ tags are probably 6/9/95 and 12/6/96. How do you feel about those two matches specifically?

 

Do you think this was always the case or is it more of a mid 90s and on thing?

[JerryvonKramer]

Profoundly disagree with that statement by OJ. 70s, 80s, 90s, I have not seen a single promotion put out more great long tag matches than All Japan.

 

What a baffling thing to say!

[ohtani's jacket]

OJ, could you elaborate more on long tags not being AJ's forte?

 

Also, just some questions I had off the bat...

 

What are you considering long? 20+ minutes? 25+? 30 or more?

 

What is your favorite AJ tag?

 

The two most highly regarded AJ tags are probably 6/9/95 and 12/6/96. How do you feel about those two matches specifically?

 

Do you think this was always the case or is it more of a mid 90s and on thing?

 

I haven't been checking the match times so some of the matches may be longer or shorter than they seem, but to me the matches where Tenryu tagged with Kawada were far more enjoyable than the more important tag league or championship bouts because they had a tighter narrative structure. It may be an issue of scope rather than length, and hierarchy has a part to play in it too as it's easier to work traditional narratives when there's a junior partner involved, but I'd classify 25 minutes plus as going long in this style. The way I see it, because the matches don't have a Southern style FIP structure, and mat work is practically non-existent by this point, it's difficult to fill in the opening portions. There's a lot of back and forth until it's time to hit the stretch run, but the moves they use would be reserved for the finishing stretch in most Southern style tags. That invariably leads to a game of "can you top this?" which becomes repetitive after a while. The benefit of a shorter match is that you can shorten the opening stanzas and get to the stretch run sooner. The only way to really make a longer match compelling is to have a killer hook, but nine times out of ten the hook is one of the wrestlers violently attacking the other and you can't throw those shock tactics out in every match. You could maybe argue that All Japan tags have a slow build to a hot finishing stretch, but I'd argue with the 'build' part.

 

I haven't watched 6/9/95 and 12/6/96 in donkey's years, but I don't remember liking them any less the last time I saw them. I have no use whatsoever for the hour long matches they were having in the 90s, though. An hour long tag is an abomination as far as I'm concerned. They shouldn't happen, ever. I don't have a favourite AJPW tag off the top of my head. As for whether it was always the case, if you encouraged me to watch a long ass Baba/Jumbo vs. Funks tag, I can't imagine that being enticing.

[JerryvonKramer]

I won't encourage OJ to watch Funks vs. Baba and Jumbo, but I will point others to them, you can see my ratings here:

 

Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Tomomi Tsuruta (10/09/73) ***3/4

Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta (03/13/75) ****3/4

Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta (12/14/77) ****

Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta (12/15/78) ****1/2

Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta (11/30/79) ****1/2

Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta (12/11/80) ***

Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta (12/8/81) ***1/2

 

75 match is about 30 minutes and you can watch as a stand alone. And it would be my text book example of how to work a near-perfect 2/3 fall tag match. It's also the sort of match that makes me think of something like Bret vs. Austin from Survivor Series as being entirely unremarkable in terms of building towards an escalation of violence, because that tag match does it better in almost every way.

 

Of these most go 30 mins, but the 81 match is too long at around 45.

 

In terms of later All Japan, I suppose people already know some of the great longer tags. I don't see any correlation at all between tag matches and match length. 30 minutes is often a sweet spot for me. 45-60 is "long" and there is a certain art of working to that length, but I think that's a different thread. 30 minutes for a tag is perfectly fine though. Anyone else disagree?

[WingedEagle]

In terms of later All Japan, I suppose people already know some of the great longer tags. I don't see any correlation at all between tag matches and match length. 30 minutes is often a sweet spot for me. 45-60 is "long" and there is a certain art of working to that length, but I think that's a different thread. 30 minutes for a tag is perfectly fine though. Anyone else disagree?

 

No. Looking at all of the Misawa & Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada & Taue tags, the only ones that ever felt remotely long were when they went a full 60. Tag league finals, 6/1/93, 5/21/94, 6/9/95, none of those feel like anything approaching a chore. Just the best in class from that or many other eras. No doubt they are not short and if you want 20-25 minutes these matches will usually not be your sweet spot. But I can't think of many matches that length that are so gripping the whole way.

[El-P]

All Japan only has the best tag team matches ever. Yeah, not their style.

[ohtani's jacket]

I said long tag matches.

[ohtani's jacket]

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Stan Hansen & Ted Dibiase (8/31/85)

 

This was a solid match. It was a bit heatless at first due to Ted not being a known quantity, but as soon as Jumbo began charging about the crowd came to life. Really clever finish to have Hansen and Dibiase target the arm damage caused by Jumbo clotheslining Ted. Ripping off the elbow protector and targeting the arm made for some great visuals, and to my great surprise they went all the way with it w/ Jumbo actually submitting from the damage that had been inflicted. He took forever to submit, and I was worried that Tenryu would break it up or Hansen would grow frustrated and get himself DQ'ed, but he finally submitted. It was a few beats too long, but guys almost never submit in Japan, and that sort of situation is almost always a "nearfall," so to speak, or a teased finish, so it was cool to see it actually come off and end a match. Certainly made it more memorable than it would have been with a count out or DQ.

[ohtani's jacket]

Genichiro Tenryu & Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Killer Khan & Riki Choshu (8/2/85)

 

This was an absolute mess of a bout structurally, but it did put over the fact that just about anything could happen when Ishingun were involved. Jumbo just got destroyed here. He was bleeding heavily, had damage to his knee and elbow and was laid out about as badly as a Japanese ace is ever laid out. I surprised to see him put over Ishingun to that extent then he turned around and submitted to Hansen at the end of the month .August of '85 was a rough month for Jumbo Tsuruta. Those were some heavy looking kneedrops from Killer Khan. That had to have been at least 120 kg coming down on Jumbo's elbow and knee. Early on, Jumbo was doing his "my pace" bullshit while everyone else was looking to sprint, and everything after that was a chaotic blend of Riki Choshu's strong style and Killer Khan's more American flavoured brawling, but you can't really quibble with the beating Jumbo took. These matches are having less and less to do with Tenryu, however, so I think I'll wrap things up shortly.

[jdw]

The All Japan style, though to be fair it's a criticism that could be extended to most Japanese promotions.

 

Thought that might have been the meaning, but wanted to check.

 

 

I said long tag matches.

 

What people are tossing out are long matches in you're 25+ minute concept, though I've seen you mention other matches as being long that go right around 20.

 

I'm looking at Loss' list of his best matches in 1996. 8 of the Top 50 are All Japan tags. 6 of the 8 were 25+ minutes, while the other two were right at 20 minutes.

 

Granted they're not everyone's cup of tea.

[jdw]

Genichiro Tenryu & Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Killer Khan & Riki Choshu (8/2/85)

 

These matches are having less and less to do with Tenryu, however, so I think I'll wrap things up shortly.

 

We'll, if you've come this far, it might be worth doing the Jumbo & Tenryu vs Choshu & Yatsu series of matches from 11/85 - 2/87:

 

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (11/30/85)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (01/28/86)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (02/05/86)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (03/04/86)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (12/06/86)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (01/24/87)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (02/05/87)

 

All are titles matches, with the exception of their 11/85 & 12/86 which are Tag League matches.

 

They might not all be available online... or easily online. I don't know how much of it Ditch put up, either... probably a chunk of it. But they're all in circulation now.

 

The Jumbo-Tenryu series is probably played out in terms of discussions, so I won't list those singles matches.

[ohtani's jacket]

I watched those matches last year or the year before. I enjoyed the series overall, but the law of diminishing returns began to apply. I guess I could watch them again with a view to how much Tenryu contributed.

[ohtani's jacket]

Genichiro Tenryu vs. Isao Takagi (1/28/90)

 

I'm not sure if this was the bout Jetlag was referring to, but I figure it must be since after Tenryu recovered from Takagi's initial attempt at creating a surprise upset, he dishes out a pretty Tenryu-esque beating. As with other bouts this length, Tenryu gave his opponent a ton of offence rather than drawing out his squash of said wrestler. Whether that's a good thing or not, I'm not sure. He grabbed for the chair here ,but at least he used it with some conviction. Takagi didn't look great on attack, which kind of defied the purpose of the bout, but at least this showed that Tenryu's crankiness was brewing as early as 1990.

[ohtani's jacket]

Genichiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada vs. The Great Kabuki & Mighty Inoue (2/21/90)

 

This was pretty good, but in more of a "I can't believe these workers had a match this good" kind of a way as opposed to a "wow, here's a match from 1990 that nobody ever talks about" kind of way. Tenryu indeed brought a type of proto-WAR stiffness and attitude to the bout, particularly the way he smacked Kabuki about, but I thought the stuff involving Kawada was a bit rubbish. He was going through this gawky growth "spurt" as he transitioned from a lightweight into a heavyweight and it almost felt like his wrestling adolescence. He was too chunky to play the young ring boy any longer and was almost the same size as Inoue, so I didn't really buy this toothless, rat tailed heavy being the whipping boy he'd played so effectively from '88 to '89. Tenryu kicked enough arse to make up for that but even then his asskicking felt like proto-punk compared to his punk WAR days. Not bad, though.

[ohtani's jacket]

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu (8/31/87)

 

I liked this a lot. Jumbo upped his physicality and kept the "my pace" holds to a minimum. The submissions he did use were incorporated into the bout well and in general I thought he did a did a good job of working like the beast he should have been and not the stodgy ace that Baba preferred. I mean look at the size of the dude, he should have thrown people around more and monstered guys. He brought as much of that as he could do this bout and it was all the better for it. Tenryu was solid here, but it felt like Jumbo was the one leading the bout possibly because of how much he changed up his style. Wasn't sure how I felt about the finish. I didn't see the need to put Tenryu over, and the way they did it was less than convincing and gave Jumbo an easy out. I would have preferred to see Jumbo re-stamp his authority with an aggressive new wrestling style and hold off on a Tenryu win til later. But like we talked about before, Baba probably didn't have a plan in mind for where this was heading.

[ohtani's jacket]

Ric Flair vs. Genichiro Tenryu (9/15/92)

 

Initially, I had no desire to watch this, but it got a bit of play in the Yearbook for being Tenryu's best match since he left All Japan and Flair's best match since 1990 so I felt compelled to watch it. It's almost Flair's best match by default given how seriously wrestling is presented in Japan. I've never really felt like Flair was all that over in Japan and the lukewarm response to his stylin' and profilin' here seemed further proof that the Nature Boy gimmick fell flat in Japan. It was interesting watch Flair take it to the mat as he wasn't really a great mat wrestler, but then again neither was Tenryu. Flair kept things moving enough that you could ignore the nuts and bolts of what he was actually doing, and mixed in enough strikes that Tenryu was able to put over the physical contest. There was nothing really gripping about the fall, but I loved the way Tenryu sold his jaw. The biggest revelation for me about Tenryu has been how good he is at those small details. Unfortunately, he has a tendency to whiff on the big stuff and I thought the finish to the opening fall was pretty bad. It started with a press slam off the top rope where Flair had to raise Tenryu's hand because it was out of position and followed up with some weak looking offense and another terrible powerbomb from Tenryu. Perhaps he had good reason to lay Flair down on a bed of feathers, but it kind of signaled to me that this wasn't going to be hugely physical.

 

The second fall wasn't hugely compelling. Tenryu took a direct approach to begin with and the transition for Flair to take back control of the match was a poke to the eye, which I thought was lame for a match being held in Japan. Flair ran through a few of his suplexes, which went nowhere as they transitioned into a stand-up contest, and then there was a bunch of legwork from Flair leading into the figure four. The figure four passage took an age, but at least Ric got a submission out of it. Thirty minutes into the video and Tenryu had given most of the bout to Flair, which highlights a tendency that Tenryu had, which was to give too much of the bout to his opponent and work from underneath too much. I think we can agree that the Tenryu you want to see is the guy doing soccer ball kicks and punting folks in the face and not with his back to the canvas all the time.

 

Tenryu being Tenryu he sold the crap out of his leg in the most realistic manner he could think of. It's unlikely Flair ever faced an opponent who put that much effort into selling the effects of the figure four, especially since Ric rarely got a submission with it. There was another lengthy figure four passage, which I think you'd have to be reasonably invested in the match to enjoy. Flair strategy buffs would probably point to the set-up work Flair did throughout the fall, which is fair enough, but while Tenryu did a nice job of hobbling about and hanging on by a thread, I couldn't really get into the spirit of Tenryu taking a constant beating. The finish was straight out of Baba's playbook, though Tenryu desperately trying to get Flair back into the ring on a bad wheel was a novel twist.

 

I'd go about *** on this. Felt like a bit of a chore watching it. I can see whether other people are coming from, though, as Flair had nothing like it from WrestleWar '90 onward. Wasn't a particularly great Tenryu match for me, though.

 

 

[ohtani's jacket]

I kind of want to put Tenryu to bed as there's other guys I want to watch, so here are some general thoughts on the man:

 

He reminds me a lot of Negro Navarro in the sense that he got better as he got older. In none of the Misioneros footage we have from the 80s or early 90s does Navarro look as good as the worker he molded himself into during the mid-00s, and the same is true for Tenryu prior to 1989. I'd put his peak at around 1989 to 1996, and I still think it's a crying shame that after the New Japan feud wound down in '94 there was that gap period where he did bugger all until the UWF-i feud began. 1994 and '95 seems like a significant chunk of his prime that was wasted. Nevertheless, he was an excellent worker during that period. His execution issues weren't nearly as bad as I thought. When he did have issues they tended to be clangers, but once I'd watched enough of his matches I tended to ignore some of the general sloppiness surrounding his work and appreciate other aspects of his work like his amazing selling. As mentioned above, the biggest revelation for me was how good he was at selling. I knew about his facials and his nonchalant heel attitude, but the nuanced selling was something I didn't expect. Selling could probably be broken down into various categories if people cared to take the time, but one of the major ones is selling pain, and outside of Mayumi Ozaki I'm struggling to think of anyone who sold pain in a more realistic manner than Tenryu. He was fantastic at grimacing and favouring a body part. When he stayed down hurt it looked like a sports broadcast. Such fine, nuanced work.

If I have one criticism of him outside of giving too much of the bout to his opponent and working from underneath too much (regardless of how good he was at selling), it's that his performances were often better than his matches, and I think that's a huge problem when comparing him to his peers who were, more often than not, the driving force behind their matches. I think he worked intentionally smaller matches than the epics that were in vogue during the mid-90s, but how much of it was a deliberate point of difference is impossible to say. The end result is that while I think he was a fantastic worker, and one of the best sellers ever, there's only a handful of matches that I'd consider the cream of the crop. You mileage will vary on that, however. Offsetting that to an extent is the fact he participated in two of the all-time great in-ring feuds -- Jumbo vs. Tenryu and Tenryu vs. Hashimoto. To me the chemistry in those feuds was better than in rivalries such as Kawada vs. Misawa and Misawa vs. Kobashi even if the matches weren't.

 

I'd probably put Tenryu in the second tier of Japanese workers, but I'd be comfortable putting him there. In many ways he was an overachiever who had an in-ring career that was better than it had a right to be. I don't think he was the most naturally talented athlete to grace a pro-wrestling ring even if had been a rikishi, and he got better because of smarts and not really by improving his technique as such. I'm not sure if others will agree, but the more he aged the more he seemed to work like Terry Funk with the punches and some of the selling tics. Anyway, an interesting candidate and one I'm sure will do very well.

[DR Ackermann]

I really love everything you had to say about Tenryu, OJ, and feel like you summed him up very well. agree with the comparison to Funk and the selling talk. Though I would put him in the top tier of Japanese workers. One thing I would say about Tenryu that I think helps his case, is that he was surprisingly good before Choshu showed up. I always saw him as pretty weak before 85, but rewatched some stuff recently as was surprised by how good he was.

[El-P]

He had his shortcomings. He didn't reach the peaks of Misawa and Kobashi. But there's one thing, he worked a style that never required you to get dropped on your head like Misbashi did after the late 90's. It was stiff as hell, but safer. Well, not always safer when he would botch that powerbomb, Onita style. But he's been part of so many great matches. And not so great ones, but which were always fun to see, be it against Muta (broken bottle !), Fujinami (broken nose), Onita (broken heart…). Great personnality. And a former maegashira. What's not to love. He's my # 6. Yes, above Misawa, for reasons discussed earlier. Don't die for pro-wrestling, it's not worth it (big up to CM Punk BTW).

[Microstatistics]

#1 for me right now and pretty comfortably too I think. Everything said about his aura and ability to make everything feel big and special is so true. Incredible charisma and body language, and also a brilliant seller. Even though he is a natural heel and probably the best ever at projecting disgust and contempt and generally being a dick, he is really fantastic at working from underneath in the underdog/face role. Could work different styles and types of matches, was great everywhere he went, has a catalog of great matches against a variety of opponents over a 20+ year span. Did something interesting and compelling literally every single match. 

[WingedEagle]

One of those I'd love to make #1 but can't quite put him above a few names. Glad some folks will have him there.

[Childs]

#1 for me and pretty comfortably too I think. Everything said about his aura and ability to make everything feel big and special is so true. Incredible charisma and body language, and also a brilliant seller. Even though he is a natural heel and probably the best ever at projecting disgust and contempt and generally being a dick, he is really fantastic at working from underneath in the underdog/face role. Could work different styles and types of matches, was great everywhere he went, has a catalog of great matches against a variety of opponents over a 20+ year span. Did something interesting and compelling literally every single match. The more I watch of him, the more I am convinced he is the GOAT.

 

Interesting that you will have Tenryu No. 1 but likely not rank Hansen at all. That's probably a unique combination (not that those two guys are the same, but they'll both be top 5 for me and I imagine both top 10 for a lot of people).

[Microstatistics]

 

#1 for me and pretty comfortably too I think. Everything said about his aura and ability to make everything feel big and special is so true. Incredible charisma and body language, and also a brilliant seller. Even though he is a natural heel and probably the best ever at projecting disgust and contempt and generally being a dick, he is really fantastic at working from underneath in the underdog/face role. Could work different styles and types of matches, was great everywhere he went, has a catalog of great matches against a variety of opponents over a 20+ year span. Did something interesting and compelling literally every single match. The more I watch of him, the more I am convinced he is the GOAT.

 

Interesting that you will have Tenryu No. 1 but likely not rank Hansen at all. That's probably a unique combination (not that those two guys are the same, but they'll both be top 5 for me and I imagine both top 10 for a lot of people).

 

Yes I am definitely the odd man out when it comes to Hansen.