Negro Casas

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[tim]

Number one for me. Like Santito he could go on the mat, have a crazy brawl and turn up the workrate. But he's also incredibly charismatic in a way very, very few wrestlers have ever been. He's a guy who will add awesome touches to a match -- one little example that always comes to mind for me is in the famous 80s match vs. Santo, where he has Santo on the apron and runs him into the ringpost, and almost launches himself over the ropes, selling how much force he had used to ram Santo into the post. I appreciate stuff like that a lot. Tons of great matches, brawls, technical battles, trios, modern juniors-style lucha stuff. Still going strong in 2014. Won the WKO100 just last year. Plus he's really got an intangible quality about him that makes everything he does more interesting and compelling.

[cubbymark]

In later years, Casas has turned into a fantastic "comedy wrestler." His Peste Negra stuff seems to have really rejuvenated his career and given him that much more longevity. Negro and Zacarias el Perico is amazing.

 

I also really enjoy "Tio Casas" whenever he teams up with his nephews Puma and Tiger, it makes for such another interesting dynamic to an already legendary and versatile repertoire.

[goodhelmet]

Top 5 luchador. That means Top 10-15 overall.

[Timbo Slice]

Haven't seen much of the old Casas stuff but Tio Casas has been really fun to watch the last few years. He'll make my list easily, but depending on how much of him I get to see, he could be anywhere from Top 25 to Top 75.

[BillThompson]

I need to see more of younger Casas, because older Casas will be making my list. Almost flawless in the ring, the master at making his opponent look great, able to draw deep emotion from the crowd, and has an uncanny ability to transition from serious to comedy without losing a step.

[ohtani's jacket]

Today's Vintage Negro Casas of the Day is quite a long entry about the '93 Casas/Dragon title match which just surfaced on RubeTube. As usual lots of rambling, plenty of tangets, and no proof reading whatsoever - http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/blog/8/entry-433-vintage-negro-casas-of-the-day-9/

[Matt D]

I like older Casas far more than younger Casas. That said, I haven't seen a ton of younger Casas, not really, but from what I've seen of him in trios, it's not what I was hoping for. I was hoping for the nuance and trickiness and character work of old Casas married to much more athleticism. The athleticism is there but I haven't seen enough signs of the rest yet. I do have a lot more to see though.

[ohtani's jacket]

Christ no, my head just exploded and I don't have anything around the house to piece it back together.

[Matt D]

It's fine. I just need to see more. I know you've been digging through it but point me to what I can't miss. Sometimes guys end up playing a role in a trios match which only lets them show one facet. I think I've gotten a lot of that in what I've seen so far.

 

EDIT: the weird thing about writing for SC is that sometimes I hold off on watching things because I'd rather do it as part of a mini project to write up, but you've got Casas so covered that I wouldn't have any misgivings there. I'd just be able to watch freely whatever you pointed me towards.

[ohtani's jacket]

I decided I wouldn't talk about recent Casas for this poll. What's been great lately is that there's all this '92-94 Casas popping up online that previously you had to go out of your way to order from Lynch, and I guess only Bihari did that to any great degree. We're very lucky in this day and age as ten years ago lucha matches online were as rare as hen's teeth and certainly not the hidden gems ilk.

[Matt D]

I definitely wouldn't be doing what I was doing ten years ago. Absolutely. I'll just comb through what you've been doing and watch accordingly.

[ohtani's jacket]

The best way to do it is to watch Casas/Dandy from '92 and all of the trios that surrounded it. Usually the trios come before a singles match, but I think they happened afterwards in this case. Gregor would know for sure. I'd really like to encourage people to watch all the trios matches surrounding notable singles matches from the 90s as they are a huge part of the fun.

[Matt D]

I'm the last guy you have to convince of that. I generally want to see things in as much context as possible. I'm also probably more apt to gravitate towards trios matches than singles matches right now.

[Gregor]

Casas/Dandy has two trios matches and a battle royal before the singles match, and one or two trios (never seen the second one, so it might not be a Casas/Dandy-focused match) afterwards. They're also on opposite sides for a trios match in Los Angeles in September, which is well after the feud has cooled off, but you still get to see them go at it.

[DylanZero]

Not to jump ahead too much, but Casas was in some really amazing and classic matches with Hijo del Santo in the mid-90's, particularly his Apuestas match at the 64th Aniversario as well as a 3-way Apuestas also involving Dandy slightly earlier that stand out to me as some of my favorite Lucha matches and especially crowd reactions that more benefit Santito maybe, but Casas more than held his own in that really jumped his stock up for me the first time I saw them, the Peste Negra work has added a new flavor and dynamic and honestly the last two years he's probably a top 3 player in my WOTY. Such longevity and variety cannot be ignored and there's a very good chance he winds up in my top 3 Luchadores ever, heck or of any wrestlers on this list. #1 is his ceiling as far as I'm concerned, and his floor's floor is top 10. Excellent, excellent performer.

[Matt D]

Matt, I expounded on the problems of lucha booking and storytelling to a greater degree in my latest entry -- http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/blog/8/entry-434-vintage-negro-casas-of-the-day-10/

 

We had to get this out of the joshi note. I've decided to move it here.

 

1.) Does this hurt Casas' case to you? You basically just said that he ate up the match and hurt both the match and the feud because of it.

2.) From what I've understood, CMLL doesn't need to take risks. It doesn't need to be booked well. It doesn't need much of anything because of their revenue structure. There's no real benefit to them having agents to keep matches aimed the way they're supposed to be.

3.) I think this match bothered you because you've seen a lot of matches where the story is there and where they do build towards the payoff match. Like you said. "We all know how hot trios matches can be in the lead up to a singles match..." I think that means that lucha isn't necessarily a poor medium for great storytelling. Quite the opposite. It's a great medium. It's just that the execution rarely lives up to the inherent potential due to laziness and non-committal booking. On the other hand, there's just so much out there that you do find it and when you do, it's really enjoyable?

[ohtani's jacket]

1) I thought it was odd, but I didn't want to speculate on the reason. I just think it was poor booking to have Casas as the third guy on his team when it's clear that a guy with his personality is going to command center stage. Cruz should have been more assertive as there are plenty of other rudos that never took a back seat to anyone, but I suppose you could criticise Casas for not toning down his involvement in the match.

 

2) CMLL needs to be booked well if it wants to make any money. The hot periods have generally coincided with strong feuds and better booking.

 

3) The matches where the story is there account for less than 5% of the total matches. I agree about the potential, but if it never lives up to the potential that means that the people involved aren't very good at it, which in turn means that in general it's not very well done. Do you get my point?

[Matt D]

1. Do you see this as a pattern in a lot of Casas matches? I've more or less noted the opposite. I've seen him to be almost too good at getting out of the way at various points in his career, but I haven't seen nearly enough as I've admitted before.

 

2. Is there any central receptacle for Arena Mexico attendance, for instance?

 

3. I think what I've found instead is that most matches I watch end up as good or pretty good or but few actually are as good as they should be. I'm probably more forgiving on lucha than I am for other things. Mainly, I'm saying that while few matches really live up to their potential, even in cases where they blatantly should, very many of them still live up to enough of it to be good in my eyes. Good is not great though.

[ohtani's jacket]

1) It's not something I've noticed to any great degree. There are dozens of throwaway Arena Coliseo matches where you wish he would have taken center stage, but this match was a little different because Cruz' match was the following week and his brother's match the week after. The post match was dominated by Casas and Felino on the mic. I really think they should have separated the two upcoming matches into two separate trios matches.

 

2) I had to look up receptacle and still don't get what you mean. Are you talking about Plato or something?

 

3) I think that's a fair summation. There is a flipside at times where matches are better than they should be because of the formulaic trios structures. For example, Super Muneco should drag that AAA trios down, but he actually adds to it.

[JerryvonKramer]

There's no microscope thread for him and I didn't want to start one for just one match review.

 

Negro Casas vs. El Hijo del Santo (9/19/97)

 

Casas's character work is great throughout this. One of the commentators here has a ridiculous nasally voice that sounds like a Spanish Mr Punch.

 

This was really good, heated and violent. I thought Santo was going to legit break Casas's arm in the finish. Casas seems like a real super worker to me, I like the way he heels things up while also bringing violence, bumping and selling with the best of them. Santo also looked tremendous here. This was much more stiffly worked than any of the lucha I've seen before, had a grittiness to it.

 

****3/4

[ohtani's jacket]

This was much more stiffly worked than any of the lucha I've seen before, had a grittiness to it.

 

I always find this a really backhanded comment, as though this is the match that finally looks like something people like.

[concrete1992]

For a #1 contender, which if I think you plan on voting for lucha wrestlers he's at least in the discussion, it seems odd to have him with so little fanfare as far as this thread is concerned.

 

Negro Casas is great and has been great for too long to consider anything less than a top flight wrestler. Where's Casas's peak? Seems pretty shady to call someone who may be one of the Top 5 or 10 wrestlers in the planet for each year of this decade to be considered well past his peak. Maybe I'm naive. Honestly, based on just the 2010s he would probably have to make my ballot. That would neglect that he's had more than two decades of GOODNESS to back that up.

[Grimmas]

The fact he has been a top 5 worker even in the last few years and he was having great matches in 1987 is really ridiculous. I've been watching a lot of his back catalog and he was shooting up my list. He is easily in the top 10 now and we will see how high he can get.

[GOTNW]

I have him in my top five right now and he's only going up.