BillThompson Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 I think it is deniable, his terrible performance in that ladder match being one of the many reasons why it is deniable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 I think it is deniable, his terrible performance in that ladder match being one of the many reasons why it is deniable. I honestly can not fathom how someone could think that performance was terrible. It was flawless. He took two of the craziest legitimate, non death match stupidity bumps i've ever seen, and sold the leg tremendously the whole way. Razor was great too. The pace was incredible, as was the intensity. To each his own I guess, not sure what you could have wanted that you didn't get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 The selling that you are saying is present I didn't find to be present at all. Shawn sold the leg for a very small time, basically when Razor was working on it, then he immediately forgot about it and flew around the ring for the rest of the match as if Razor had never touched his leg. It undermined Razor's work, and the match as a whole. But yeah, to each their own, I'm the first person to espouse the subjectivity of pro wrestling so I'm perfectly happy with any opinion that opposes mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 Easy top ten contender. Has to be considered for #1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 Glad to see Shawn getting some big love. I don't personally rank him at quite that level, but it's good that we have some people here willing to advocate for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 Easy top ten contender. Has to be considered for #1. I think the last time I did something like this he ended up around #10. Behind Misawa, Kobashi, Flair, and a bunch of other guys who would elicit a shocked smiley around these parts like Angle, KENTA, etc. Michaels is a guy who I never think I like as much as most people do, then I watch his stuff and i'm like, holy shit this guy is phenomenal what was I thinking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 Do you like his post comeback stuff Joe? That is where I have more trouble with Shawn and I have a few examples. One is the 2004 Taboo Tuesday match vs. HHH. HHH gives a spirited performance on selling here and Shawn overacts way to much and brings the match down. The other is he seems inconsistent at times. What matches are out there to present as feather in Shawns cap in 2002-2003 beside the Jericho WM one after SummerSlam 2002? That seems like a big hole between stand out performances for a top 10 type guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 Throwing my two cents in: coming from a country which has only the most casual of casual fans, you would be surprised at just how beloved Shawn is. The guy is loved almost as much as Cena. Part of it has to do with his being pushed as a legend and as the Showstopper, but I do not think it explains it all. People genuinely love him here, just like they love Cena and Rey. Not as much as 'Taker and Khali, but quite a lot nevertheless. Also, I am not sure if this is relevant or not, but I was reading an old thread where people were saying Shawn does not put anyone over, which I found was interesting, because the one criticism which most fans here have is that he lost a tad too much, and that his WM record is abysmal. My cousin always laughs at how much Shawn loses, and how he has lost to almost everyone. Which makes me think that had he lost more, he would not have been nearly as beloved. People would always be surprised here when he won, as opposed to when he lost. I know this is strictly anecdotal, but I do believe it counts for something. I would always be ostracized for having the temerity to suggest that Austin and Rock were better than HBK. I guess that was why he had c career as long as he did post-comeback. I might not be making much sense, and this might be irrelevant, but I just thought I would share it. Sometimes we live in our own little bubble, and it is difficult to see outside it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 No idea where Shawn will end up ranking on my list, but I can't imagine lower than to 10-15 among American workers. I love bumpy Shawn, DX Shawn and especially post-comeback. Big fan of the Angle, Jericho, Cena, Batista and Taker matches along with lots of his TV stuff in the early-comeback era when he was a regular TV worker. Not much love for the HHH epics other than Summerslam '02. I'm about to start the '94 yearbook, so between that and making my way through PPVs on the Network (up to Survivor Series '03) I'll have plenty of opportunities to narrow where he fits on the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 A guy I normally found entertaining to watch but never thought was really great. I think WWE pushing him as the best ever made him become annoying to some people, it did to me at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Glad to see Shawn getting some big love. I don't personally rank him at quite that level, but it's good that we have some people here willing to advocate for him. yeah p. much this, and this is coming from someone else who's rather cold on shawn wasn't it jimmy redman who was going to rank shawn #1 and make a big post here? eagerly awaiting that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 I'm procrastinating. Well actually it's just that I haven't been in the mood to sit down and write a large novel on Shawn, which is what it will be once I get going. When the moment strikes me, it will happen. And to be honest I have no idea where I'm ranking anyone right now. It's way too early and I have way too much watching to do. But I mean, if you asked me today who my GOAT is, it's him. Whether I end up ranking him #1 in 2016 I can't say. But I'll be making the case either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 To me it makes perfect sense that Joe would really love Michaels' work even if he isn't the biggest fan of Shawn in general, because I think Michaels is very similar to Tanahashi in a lot of ways as a worker. I have very strange feelings about Michaels myself, increasingly so as time goes on. On the one hand I love The Rockers to the point where they are probably one of my ten favorite teams of all time. On the other hand I think almost everything else in his career is overrated. Note that I don't think everything else in his career is bad. I think Shawn was very good, and at times really great from 92-97. But when I look at his resume from that time period - a period that is often called his peak - it looks remarkably thin to me. I just don't see how he has the depth of someone like Flair, Lawler, Misawa, Kobashi, Jumbo, Tenryu, Liger, et. and these are the sort of guys he is competing with for the absolute top tier. Even with the post comeback stuff I don't really see it, and that's even if I am granting a lot of credit to matches that I don't even think were good let alone great. I am interested in Jimmy's post because I want to see someone make the case and address this depth issue with Shawn, because even if I was in line with those who love his post-comeback work, I don't see how their is enough meat to put him with the all time elite guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 Maybe this should be a separate thread, but I've been wondering...how high on the list someone has to be placed to be considered "elite"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shining Wiz Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 To me it makes perfect sense that Joe would really love Michaels' work even if he isn't the biggest fan of Shawn in general, because I think Michaels is very similar to Tanahashi in a lot of ways as a worker. I have very strange feelings about Michaels myself, increasingly so as time goes on. On the one hand I love The Rockers to the point where they are probably one of my ten favorite teams of all time. On the other hand I think almost everything else in his career is overrated. Note that I don't think everything else in his career is bad. I think Shawn was very good, and at times really great from 92-97. But when I look at his resume from that time period - a period that is often called his peak - it looks remarkably thin to me. I just don't see how he has the depth of someone like Flair, Lawler, Misawa, Kobashi, Jumbo, Tenryu, Liger, et. and these are the sort of guys he is competing with for the absolute top tier. Even with the post comeback stuff I don't really see it, and that's even if I am granting a lot of credit to matches that I don't even think were good let alone great. I am interested in Jimmy's post because I want to see someone make the case and address this depth issue with Shawn, because even if I was in line with those who love his post-comeback work, I don't see how their is enough meat to put him with the all time elite guys. I'm not the one to go in depth regarding this question, but I think you have to, at least to some degree, factor in the environment they were working in. Shawn simply wasn't in the position to have the depth of great performances the other did because if the structure if the WWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 I would be more sympathetic to that argument if Bret Hart wasn't a peer who in my view produced more memorable matches. And I say this as someone who is much less high on Bret than his biggest fans are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 I'll echo Dylan's thoughts. It's hard to give Shawn leeway for the "environment of the WWF" at the time when, off the top of my head, Bret, Owen, and Davey Boy were all able to produce far more high end matches in that same environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 I'm pretty sure Michaels has had as many well regarded matches in the WWF as Davey Boy and Owen. Shawn Michaels fans can breath easy there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 I'm pretty sure Michaels has had as many well regarded matches in the WWF as Davey Boy and Owen. Shawn Michaels fans can breath easy there. Not in my book, less than Davey and way less than Owen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shining Wiz Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 I would be more sympathetic to that argument if Bret Hart wasn't a peer who in my view produced more memorable matches. And I say this as someone who is much less high on Bret than his biggest fans are. How would you say the depth of Bret's output compares to the others you listed originally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shining Wiz Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 I'm pretty sure Michaels has had as many well regarded matches in the WWF as Davey Boy and Owen. Shawn Michaels fans can breath easy there. Not in my book, less than Davey and way less than Owen. While that's down to taste, that'll be a hard one to substantiate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 Not particularly well. But for memorable matches during his peak better than Shawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shining Wiz Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 Not particularly well. But for memorable matches during his peak better than Shawn. I agree....was just wondering how my environment argument might hold up with Hart as focus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Sleeze Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 I'm pretty sure Michaels has had as many well regarded matches in the WWF as Davey Boy and Owen. Shawn Michaels fans can breath easy there. Not in my book, less than Davey and way less than Owen. What's the best Owen match that does not involve Bret? What's the best Owen match that does involve Shawn? So I would say the Davey Boy match from '97, the Austin match from SSlam '97, 1-2-3 Kid from '94 and... What's the best Davey Boy match that does not involve Bret? What's the best Davey Boy match that does not involve Shawn? So I would say the Own match from '97 and... Shawn had the Jarrett match, the Razor matches (two ladder matches and 8/94 RAW), Sid, Vader, Diesel, Foley, Austin and Undertaker matches. Owen and Davey Boy are fun characters and enjoy them when they pop up. They can carry their load in a match, but Shawn is working a Memphis match against Jarrett, defining the Ladder match style with amazing psychology in each (I put over the spots and II had great body part work), worked great against bigger men, old school against Austin, a great violent brawl with Foley and the chickenshit heel run to end all chickenshit heel runs against Undertaker. Shawn smokes Owen and Davey Boy and really is not even close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Including the Vader and Sid stuff is generous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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