Dump Matsumoto

[Jetlag]

Not to disparage Dump, who is probably the most effective crazy sadistic heel ever, but I dare anyone who's giving her consideration based on a handful of 80s matches to watch some of her post comeback work too. She had 78 matches in 2003 AJW alone.

[elliott]

Not a single person has or would put Dump forward as a longevity or post peak candidate. Her case is made in the 80s. 

 

[elliott]

Not a single person has or would put Dump forward as a longevity or post peak candidate. Her case is made in the 80s. 

 

[Grimmas]

I don't know why we are talking about someone's comeback 5 years after their retirement, when their whole case is based on their prime. What a fucking prime it is too! She is the most evil heel in the history of wrestling. Her matches are not just matches, they are mythical special events that have to be seen to be believed. There is an aura in her matches that few can accomplish. 

She's not just stabby stabby either, there are many instances where she shoes she can really wrestle. However, she's such a presence is that even important?

Watch any Dump match (during her initial career) they are special. She is special. 

Easy top 25 worker.

[Jetlag]

1 hour ago, elliott said:

Not a single person has or would put Dump forward as a longevity or post peak candidate. Her case is made in the 80s. 

 

Yes but it would still be interesting to talk about, no?

[elliott]

Dude, we're just trying to get people to watch her actual prime. 

Real question, are going to continue to act like this in every women's wrestler thread? In the past week there have been posts bumping threads about Daniel Bryan, Negro Casas, Buddy Rose, Satanico, Lou Thesz, CM Punk, Shinya Hashimoto, and Konnan. You have absolutely nothing to say about any of them but you're rushing in to  "Dare" people to watch post prime Dump?

[WingedEagle]

Post-prime work doesn't seem to be forbidden for other candidates.  Why such a concern here?  If the totality of one's career is to be considered than it should be that way whether for Dump, Flair, Satanico, Rose or anyone else.

[elliott]

People haven't even watched Dump's prime. Bringing up her 2003 is intentionally derailing the thread before its even begun. Notjaytabb literally just said they've discovered her TODAY after 30 years as a fan and someone's first instinct is to distract and bring up a period 15 years later literally no one has ever pointed to as worth watching? What exactly is the point of that?

But my apologies because I've inadvertently done the same as far as derailing the thread. My post wasn't about the argument but about the consistent pattern of a poster repeatedly doing this in woman's thread after woman's thread. I should've just ignored the poster from the start and will do so now. 

[Jetlag]

Dumps prime is all people watch, it seems. I hope I don't have to explain why exploring unexplored stuff can be worthwhile. I mean, if Dump is #2 of all time, there has to be something in that 10 year plus period worth watching, right? So it stuns me how bringing up the fact she has more to her career than the 80s is an attempted derailing. It's like pointing out how Fujiwara had some great matches in WYF is derailing because that's not his peak stuff. If we are only allowed to bring up negative things about workers discussions are gonna be one sided.

Yes, I don't have much to say on Daniel Bryan, Flair, and Negro Casas. People are analyzing these guys to death, there's nothing to be added. And their late career work is being actively discussed as its happening. People also hold Flairs post prime work against him, so if anything I'm making things fairer by applying the same idea to other workers. Are we gonna make "you have to write a 200 word post on Flair before you can comment on anyone else" a requirement before we get this project underway?

[Rah]

I'm in the same case as NotJayTabb, though clearly not as long a fan of wrestling. Last night was my first (real?) look at Dump and I came away on a clear high. What must be said, is that those matches we watched were not her most heralded things so it shows she has a large number of matches during her (admittedly concentrated) prime.

I'm still trying to toy with what I value more in my wrestling (peak vs longevity, especially) so I appreciate the sentiment of being hipped to her later work. Perhaps I am removed from the situation that Elliot sees the post in but I didn't find Jetlag's post to be gatekeeping. Yes, the 'dare' is strong, but I am sure Jetlag is not a native English speaker so I think that might have been lost in translation. After all, Jetlag has gone to bat more times for some Joshi wrestlers than most people. Not only on PWO, but across the boards I've been on. His/her tastes are unconventional/against the grain, but the idea of being the one to uncover some unknown hidden gem is appealing. Bless Jetlag for covering the ground nobody else does because there are wrestlers who have directly benefited from it. 

Anyway, back to peak/longevity. I know this is a problem I have with Pirata Morgan - someone I have no doubt will get voted purely on his 80s/90s run. How many people actively still follow his matches? How many people are coming around on most of these wrestlers and are going to vote purely on the (terrific) primers posted by KB8 et al. with little reference to anything else? Six years is a long time but it's not the hyperbolic time chamber - there's only so much we can watch. What do we do in those instances? We can implore people to view more but we can't force them.

Perhaps those votes, like mine, shouldn't count, because they're not exhaustive and thus canonically inaccurate. I know I do feel like that at times, where I haven't seen enough of someone (or some style) to voice an opinion amidst those who have. Yet, on the flipside, being a part of this project (even if it's mostly on the sidelines) has reinvigorated my love for wrestling and I've watched more wrestling in the last few months than I have in the last couple years combined. 

[ohtani's jacket]

I've been reading up on Dump to see if there's anything I can add to this thread, and man, between the way rookies were treated, the management practices, and the amount of money the Matsunagas blew, AJW ought to be a lot more notorious than it is. One thing I've discovered recently, and they did this with Aja and Bull and Dump and the Crush Girls, is that management would get in the workers' ears and feed them lies that their opponent was saying about them. Then they'd encourage them to take it on their opponent in the ring.  

[Grimmas]

If someone has a full career where they absolutely rule and then retire and come out of retirement 15 years later. Should we care about that comeback? 

That's really the question posed and that could be a discussion. However, so many are just seeing Dump for the first time and would love for them to explore that prime first. You can just keep in your mind she wasn't good on the comeback 15 years after she retired.

[Dav'oh]

I've felt like writing this about Flair, and Kobashi, and now Dump Matsumoto, so here goes: whatever she was in her comeback, she earned the right to be. Flair earned the right to become whatever one thinks he became, Kobashi earned the right to become Chopbashi and broken-down. Dump's comeback cannot diminish her extraordinary work. She couldn't bottle the lightning of the 80s when she retired, to be uncorked 15 years later - no-one could.

But when you've shown, unequivocally, what you can do over a prolonged period of time, and you've left every single ounce of your self and your psyche on the canvas (an apt term) every night, at the very highest level, for as long as you could, well...you've got nothing left to prove (to me, at least). Come back as Dump the Box, or Dumpswoggle, for all I care. 

I'm comparing the greatest at their greatest, because we're looking for the greatest.

[Jetlag]

2 hours ago, Grimmas said:

If someone has a full career where they absolutely rule and then retire and come out of retirement 15 years later. Should we care about that comeback? 

That's really the question posed and that could be a discussion. However, so many are just seeing Dump for the first time and would love for them to explore that prime first. You can just keep in your mind she wasn't good on the comeback 15 years after she retired.

 

Jaguar Yokota retired for 8 years and came back looking amazing. Finlay came back at the age of 48 and we all know how that turned out. I know, I know, the gap isn't as huge as with Dump, but she was younger than Finlay when she came back.

I'm surprised so many people are in favour of only factoring in ones prime. Where will Randy Orton rank if we consider only the Top 10 matches of each wrestler? I mean, this forum is supposed to be Pro Wrestling Deep Dive, not Pro Wrestling Surface View. We're supposed to nitpick things like how workers deal with aging and their old crowds being gone, that's the fun in these projects.

It's not like post-comeback Dump is hard to come by. There's quite a bit of her feud with Shinobu Kandori online:

https://adult.mat6tube.com/watch/180842215_456241097

https://adult.mat6tube.com/watch/180842215_456242311

https://adult.mat6tube.com/watch/10757491_160363739

(yes, yes, porn site, but its pro wrestling, I swear)

As you can see, Dump does the exact stuff she did in the 80s. A bunch of heinous, grizzly shit, brutalizing the referee, and having a dozen underlings jump into the match. It's pretty fun stuff honestly and if you enjoy the 80s material I don't see why you wouldn't want to look at this stuff.

So, there you have it. First I'm accused of trying to rain on the parade and now I have to tell people to not ignore the post prime stuff because its good. But hey, I enjoyed discovering Dump vs. Aja

[Grimmas]

I'm not against watching that stuff and I will (i'm doing joshi chrono, so I will get to it). Thanks for the recs, I do appreciate it.

However, covering someone's full prime is not taking top 10 of their career spread out over time. That's not a direct comparison, that's a whole different beast. I'm sorry but earlier, in the Petit Prince thread, you said there was 17 matches of their whole career left on tape. You are more than okay ranking them.

Maybe you weren't clear, but your original post did not seem like hey there is great post prime to check out at all. Nobody really took it that way, maybe you have to be more clear in your posts if that was your intention?

I don't want to derail the thread any further. Dump fucking rules and this is a disservice to her.

[Childs]

Why the hell is everyone getting so touchy? Jetlag is an excellent, constructive poster of long standing who referred to Dump as the "most effective crazy sadistic heel ever" in this very thread. There's nothing sinister about suggesting we look at the entire career of a wrestler Grimmas views as a top 25 shoe-in.

[ohtani's jacket]

Dump is getting her own Netflix drama. Hope it's as good as The Naked Director. 

[Mattsdmf]

I don’t know why it took me so long to get into Dump as she’s everything I love about pro wrestling. Huge character, brawls and is metal as fuck! Makes me want to put on Judas Priest’s Hell Bent for Leather!

[JerryvonKramer]

I just randomly watched Bull Nakano and Dump Matsumoto vs Veltvet McIntyre and some rando from a WWF Boston Garden card in 1986. Had to check if Dump has ever been discussed here. The American girls get an absolute mauling in this match. Some amazing culture clash stuff with Monsoon and Lord Al on commentary. When Dump does some really nasty stuff, Lord Al is audibly shocked and just says “my word!” She comes out in full samurai armour too, it’s wild. same jerk in the crowd tries a boring chant and Nakano gives a middle finger. Dunno just something about seeing these two in a 1986 WWF setting is wild. They bring some proper punk energy. McIntyre for what it’s worth hangs in there, I checked to see if she ever had a run in Japan but she didn’t.

 

 

[concrete1992]

After watching about 10 Dump matches (plenty of them against Crush Gals so not a huge amount of variety), I'm not inclined to think she will make my list. Biggest thing against her is that she has this incredibly menacing aura but doesn't back it up with her hands. When she has a weapon, looks like she is about to commit a homicide, but her finish is a soft as a pillow lariat. I probably put too much emphasis on it, I'll admit that. But it sticks out so badly to me.

Then there is the general house style of her matches features ton of interference. I'm not opposed to interference on its face but it typically infects every part of the match to the point it breaks up a ton of flow.

When I think GWE, I feel like they either need to be S Tier at at least one thing or A-B Tier at a good amount of things and Dump feels like an A Tier aura with not a ton else to lean on. Maybe she really pops outside of Crush Gals stuff...but my breath is not being held.

[Mr JMML]

She is a candidate that I strongly considered but he won't enter my list for the same reason why Art Barr didn't, her peak is awesome but she is lacking in the longevity aspect, her rivalry against Chigusa Nagayo is legendary and Dump's 1986 is awesome yet not enough to make it into my list.