Triple H

[TRMD]

The Bryan match was probably the only match in his career this century that was exactly the right length.

 

And completely the wrong type of match.

 

That match should have had a bunch of added hardcore shit in it. But HHH just wanted to show people he could "wrestle".

 

I know I'm in the heavy minority, but it was a horrible match.

 

So, HHH makes Bryan's life a living hell for months. Handcuffs him and beats the shit out of him 2 weeks prior, and yet Bryan legitimately doesn't throw a single strike in the match until it's 3 or 4 minutes in? That's just stupid.

[Childs]

It wasn't supposed to be a hate match; it was about Bryan proving himself against his ultimate naysayer, winning and earning the title shot. He couldn't afford to be out of control in that context.

[TRMD]

It wasn't supposed to be a hate match; it was about Bryan proving himself against his ultimate naysayer, winning and earning the title shot. He couldn't afford to be out of control in that context.

 

He was handcuffed and beaten against his will 2 weeks prior. HANDCUFFED AND BEATEN.

 

Show a little fire.

[Matt D]

Let me put it this way: I see both sides on this, but it took TRMD explaining his for me to see it. The Hunter/Bryan match felt "right" to me to the point I never even though of it. I guess sort of like generations of people watching Steamboat/Savage.

[Childs]

 

It wasn't supposed to be a hate match; it was about Bryan proving himself against his ultimate naysayer, winning and earning the title shot. He couldn't afford to be out of control in that context.

 

He was handcuffed and beaten against his will 2 weeks prior. HANDCUFFED AND BEATEN.

 

Show a little fire.

 

 

He beat the guy who handcuffed him and humiliated him in the process. He punished HHH the best way he could in storyline terms. (Understand, I'm not begrudging you your reaction.)

[BillThompson]

 

 

It wasn't supposed to be a hate match; it was about Bryan proving himself against his ultimate naysayer, winning and earning the title shot. He couldn't afford to be out of control in that context.

 

He was handcuffed and beaten against his will 2 weeks prior. HANDCUFFED AND BEATEN.

 

Show a little fire.

 

 

He beat the guy who handcuffed him and humiliated him in the process. He punished HHH the best way he could in storyline terms. (Understand, I'm not begrudging you your reaction.)

 

 

This is my side of the coin as well. I get what you're saying TRMD, and your reaction is understandable. However, I think for the overarching storyline the type of match they put together was near perfect in its layout, style, and execution.

[TRMD]

I should add that the match that they did actually have was good. In the sense that, HHH succeeded in his performance of trying to wrestle with a wrestler. But it would be like someone remaking Requiem for a Dream and making it a comedy. It could be hilarious, but that's not how Requiem for a Dream should be written.

 

And yes, I also understand your points. Sometimes I try to rationalize the match to myself in the exact same way. But I can't shake it. I hated the way they did it.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Requiem For A Dream is a depressing piece of shit movie that makes you sad and Bryan vs HHH at Mania is an awesome piece of fun Professional Wrestling that makes you happy.

[JerryvonKramer]

Do songs by The Grateful Dead or Pink Floyd only make you happy Johnny?

 

The range of human experience and emotion is wider than just "fun" isn't it?

[BillThompson]

I should add that the match that they did actually have was good. In the sense that, HHH succeeded in his performance of trying to wrestle with a wrestler. But it would be like someone remaking Requiem for a Dream and making it a comedy. It could be hilarious, but that's not how Requiem for a Dream should be written.

 

And yes, I also understand your points. Sometimes I try to rationalize the match to myself in the exact same way. But I can't shake it. I hated the way they did it.

 

I'll just say that Requiem for a Dream shouldn't be written in any specific way, same for any piece of art. Art is fluid, and it can be many different things to many different people.

[cowboy hats]

Just like the American dream

[TRMD]

Maybe that was a bad example. How about I equate it to actual wrestling.. The Austin/HHH build to their 3 stages of Hell match. It was an amazing, hate filled build. Why? Because they both made each others lives a living hell for over a year. So when Austin's music hit, he ran directly into the ring (And I think HHH met him half way) and starting mashing HHH with haymakers. Why? Because it fit the story.

 

I'm not saying anyone is wrong for liking or loving the match, although at the time, I did. Because I felt like everyone forgot the actual build and just loved the match because it had Bryan in it and HHH "wrestled".

[BillThompson]

The difference between those two feuds is that I don't believe that Bryan/Triple H was ever about hate. I always interpreted it as one man's, Triple H, vision of a great wrestler and another man, Bryan, seeking to prove that he was that great wrestler whether or not he fit the prototypical image that Triple H sought. That's why I bought Bryan wrestling with Trips versus going after him all revenge hate style. Bryan needed to prove that he was a great wrestler, not that he hated Triple H.

[TRMD]

The difference between those two feuds is that I don't believe that Bryan/Triple H was ever about hate. I always interpreted it as one man's, Triple H, vision of a great wrestler and another man, Bryan, seeking to prove that he was that great wrestler whether or not he fit the prototypical image that Triple H sought. That's why I bought Bryan wrestling with Trips versus going after him all revenge hate style. Bryan needed to prove that he was a great wrestler, not that he hated Triple H.

 

Again, I understand that logic.

 

But to me, when you're handcuffed and beaten and your life is a living hell for 6 months, you're wrestling the guy who not only helped steal the belt from you, but is keeping you from getting the belt back.. AND you watch him have the most elaborate entrance in the history of wrestling...

 

You don't come out on fire?

 

It kills me just thinking about it.

[BillThompson]

Not when your entire goal is to prove you are the better man, the better wrestler, and worthy of all the things that man says you're aren't. If Bryan does brawl, does come out a house of fire then I think that lessens the match because Bryan is feeding into what Trips wants and not bringing his technical wrestling acumen to bear.

 

But again, this is why our views of the match differ as a whole; we interpreted a much different story being told and we were looking for much different things from the match.

[TRMD]

Not when your entire goal is to prove you are the better man, the better wrestler, and worthy of all the things that man says you're aren't. If Bryan does brawl, does come out a house of fire then I think that lessens the match because Bryan is feeding into what Trips wants and not bringing his technical wrestling acumen to bear.

 

You can still have a great technical wrestling match while bringing a ton of fire. You of all people should know that.

 

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Jimmy Redman]

So I'm watching the Scooby Doo Wrestlemania Mystery (not even sorry) and I well and truly lost my shit about half an hour in. Everyone just had their ass kicked by The Bear, who is the big monster/ghost thing in the story, and then...

 

Everyone else: "The Bear is super scary, we better stick together!"

Hunter: "I-uh want to-uh run into-uh the woods-uh and rip-uh The Bear's head off!!!"

 

THE ALMIGHTY HUNTOR CAN'T EVEN SHOW ASS TO A FUCKING GHOST BEAR IN A SCOOBY FUCKING DOO CARTOON.

 

*dead*

[Jingus]

So I'm watching the Scooby Doo Wrestlemania Mystery (not even sorry)

Hey, I liked it. Even aside from being a perfectly decent modern Scooby Doo DTV movie (something we don't get many of nowadays), it was also a FASCINATING look into the warped psychology of the WWE office. They clearly had all kinds of script approval and executive meddling going on here, and seeing their idea of A Perfect WWE Universe really was a little bit mind-blowing.

 

Especially when it's revealed that

the villain behind the mask of the ghost bear is a bitter former employee, an injured ex-wrestler whose entire villainy spawns from the fact that he doesn't want his impressionable young son to become a wrestler and end up like him. I mean, holy SHIT that's so fucking wrong.

 

[Bierschwale]

So I'm watching the Scooby Doo Wrestlemania Mystery (not even sorry) and I well and truly lost my shit about half an hour in. Everyone just had their ass kicked by The Bear, who is the big monster/ghost thing in the story, and then...

 

Everyone else: "The Bear is super scary, we better stick together!"

Hunter: "I-uh want to-uh run into-uh the woods-uh and rip-uh The Bear's head off!!!"

 

THE ALMIGHTY HUNTOR CAN'T EVEN SHOW ASS TO A FUCKING GHOST BEAR IN A SCOOBY FUCKING DOO CARTOON.

 

*dead*

 

 

Shamelessly stealing this. That's a perfect HHH encapsulation.

[El-P]

Hilarious.

[rvd356]

Oh come on using his matches against Randy Orton as the way to judge him? ALL Orton matches suck.

 

But this is about Triple H. For an 18,month period Triple H was one of the best in the world. From January 2000 through June 2001 he was The Game, and you can put that run up against a lot of the great 18 month runs in wrestling history. No, it's not the best, but it's a Top 20 for sure.

 

But go back a bit further. Triple H was a good hand in 1995-1997 including the fun Pig Pen match with Henry Godwin and a damn good match with Steve Austin @ IYH: Buried Alive. To be honest I haven't seen much of him then, but I started watching WWF & WCW full time in June 1997 and he had just won the KOTR 97. His first great feud with Foley is also where he starts to get really good. Also having Chyna as his steroid fueled female bodyguard was money, and truly unique.

 

vs. Mankind - Canadian Stampede - damn fun brawl - ***

vs. Mankind - Summerslam 1997 - One of my favorite 'blue bar' WWF cage matches

vs. Cactus Jack - Raw in MSG - super fun Hardcore match

 

Then his career really takes off with DX, and as a 9 year old mark they did piss me off, which was the point I believe. Unless they were trashing The Hart Foundation, in which case I backed them 100%.

 

vs. Sgt. Slaughter - IYH: DX - I still remembered Slaughter as the Iraqi Champion, and didn't trust him at all. And I loved H beating his ass.

vs. Owen Hart - WrestleMania 14 - again I didn't buy Owen as a face after trashing my country for a year, and loved when Chyna through cocaine in Sarge's eyes and nut shotted 'Nugget'.

 

I think DX transferring seamlessly from HBK to H, Syxx and the Outlaws the day after Mania 14 was when he became a player. The whole Nation feud got H and The Rock over so well and I can't even imagine a midcard feud doing that in 2015(well Cena as 1/2 of it doesn't really count).

 

vs. The Rock - Summerslam 1998 Ladder match - ****1/4 loved this match at the time. If have to watch it again but this was back when Triple H played a good babyface and it was a great end to the feud.

 

He blew out his knee and was out after this if I remember right. Then he had a crap match with Kane at Mania 15(everyone has bad matches with Kane, he makes Orton look like Flair) and then turned heel and started his run to the top. Including the badass new theme song, the new gear with the trunks and bulked up a bit. I stopped watching wrestling at this point and to be honest not a lot in 1999 match wise makes H's case except:

 

vs. Vince McMahon - Armageddon 1999 hardcore match - I'm a huge 'Vince hardcore match' fan and this was the 4th main event for him this year which is crazy for a 50+ year old executive non wrestler, but just like the cage and ladder match against Steve Austin, this match was damn fun. It's weird to have Vince as the babyface but I love his crazy brawling. I just recently watched this is why I comment on it. H probably gave Vince too much, considering H was moving into the 'Ace' status, but Vince was always portrayed as such a tough guy fighter that I always bought him. Great ending and Stephanie is what really put him over the top.

 

And then H moves onto his Best in the World period of his career. I guess if you hate all these matches, then maybe he doesn't make your top 100, but I love this era.

 

vs. Cactus Jack - Royal Rumble 2000 street fight - ***** this still holds up to this day, especially since you won't see a lot of this kind of violence anymore. I think H looked like a total badass beating Foley at his own "Game". The buildup with lovable Mankind transforming into Cactus is an all time angle and I don't think it works without someone like H on the other end.

 

vs. Cactus Jack - No Way Out 2000 HIAC - ***** this definitely still holds up, and is way better than this last Brock/Taker HIAC. I think the huge bumps that Foley took here are truly a part of what made HIAC great, and the first Brock/Taker HIAC was the last true great HIAC. I loved how much punishment it took to end Foleys career...wait a minute!

 

vs. TAKA - RAW 2000 - this is one of my top 10 favorites from H, since it is truly unique. He really gave a lot to TAKA and they had a great little Heavyweight vs. Juinor bout.

 

vs. The Rock - Backlash 2000 - I haven't seen this in years but I remember it being a great match but can't vouch

 

vs. The Rock - Judgment Day 2000 Iron Man match - literally just watched a 5 minute highlight package of this because I can't do an Iron Man right now(I still have the uncut Brock/Angle one to watch and the first 60:00 minute draw with Kobashi/Kawada on deck) but this was damn good, despite all the Sports Entertainment.

 

vs. Chris Benoit - No Mercy 2000 - I'm passing a lot of stuff, because I really want to look at this match again. I literally just watched it this week and it is even better now than when I first saw it. It really blows the 04 matches out of the water because Triple H is so much more fluid and lighter on his feet. He was just so much more athletic and good before he blew out the quad in 2001. They do some awesome shit including H hitting a Death Valley Driver to escape the Crossface and Benoit hitting 2 bridged Dragon Suplexes. Benoit is an animal attackin the neck and arm getting him softened up for the Crossface. Benoit was just so freaking good in his prime(which was about 10 years, but 00-01 might be peak), that I can't even fathom anyone not having him in their Top 10's for this project. But H is right there.

 

I'm skipping ahead a bit to 2001 so I can look at my favorite matches from this time period, and my favorite part of it. The Two Man Power Trip. Sure in retrospect turning Austin Heel was a bad choice. But watching Austin get really evil on people was crazy good. And Triple H was right there with him. Will post these soon but I'm going to watch them again.

[pol]

So was he the best wrestler in the world in 2000?

[GOTNW]

Were any of his matches in 2000 other than the Foley garbage matches and the TAKA match actually good?

[Matt D]

"Bloated" would be the used to describe most of them, I think.

[Loss]

The 2000 question intrigues me. I do think Benoit had a better year, but it wasn't at the same level of Top Guy In The Company that most people want from a best in the world candidate. Hopefully, the opportunity will present itself to dive into all the Japan/Mexico/Europe/Puerto Rico that's out there for 2000 at some point, not to shoot down that idea, but to really test it.