Current New Japan

[WingedEagle]

Thanks, definitely interesting.

[NintendoLogic]

In the case of KENTA, there's also the fact that his real name (Kenta Kobayashi) bears a strong resemblance to that of Kenta Kobashi.

[pol]

Today's Korakuen show that broadcast on Samurai TV is up in the usual place. Bunch of junior tag tournament first round matches and Okada/Nakamura/Ishii vs. Tanahashi/Shibata/Goto. They pair off into their respective feuds for much of the match. I thought the Okada/Tanahashi and especially the Shibata/Nakamura sections were very good. The Ishii/Goto sections were boring as fuck, and despite being one of the people who considers Ishii perhaps the best in the world right now, I don't think Goto (who I find incredibly dull) is entirely to blame here, at least not in the way you might expect. It's not that he sucks so much that Ishii can't get anything good out of him, more that he brings out all of Ishii's worst tendencies. Goto pinned Ishii which I assume means he's the next NEVER challenger. On the one hand I'm not looking forward to 15 minutes of rope running, lariat battles and elbow exchanges. On the other hand giving Ishii a title defense win over Goto seems like a small elevation for him which is nice. Also Shibata/Nakamura seems like a potentially very high end MOTYC, although I didn't think their G1 match was at that level.

[W2BTD]

I thought the six man was great, and I LOVED the Ishii/Goto stuff. The difference of opinion is probably because I like Goto a lot, probably as a Top 20 guy worldwide right now (or close to it), and i'm into stuff like rope running, lariat battles, and elbow exchanges.

 

Anyway, I thought the match had a total All Japan glory days 6-man vibe, with the super hot crowd, and all six guys super over. The enormous pop when Tana & Okada tagged in, and the two simultaneous Tanahashi/Okada chants, really hammered home that they are going in the right direction for the dome.

 

Tana & Okada took a backseat to the other two pairings down the stretch, which was the right thing to do as they needed to get the other two matches over. Personally I can not wait for Goto/Ishii, which will be right up my alley with two dudes beating the shit out of each other.

 

The junior tags were all really fun, with a couple of them flirting with four stars. Probably the best opening round of this tournament in a few years, as usually it has a dud or two. I really, really, REALLY hope reDRagon vs Tanaka & Komatsu makes tape. Also Fuego vs Tanaka.

 

I blew off the multi-man throwaway tags, so I didn't see the whole show, but the stuff I did watch was all pretty damn good and an easy watch. Bucks vs Liger & Tiger Mask was a nice surprise.

[pol]

BUSHI/Dorada vs. the ROH guys was fun. Dug BUSHI's Super Delfin Halloween costume. Dorada's dive over the stairwell in the Korakuen stands seemed like a stupidly risky spot to try in an essentially nothing match. I'm annoyed that they jobbed KUSHIDA/Shelly (the current Jr. Tag champions!) to Romero/Koslov, whose shtick I find incredibly tired at this point.

[W2BTD]

BUSHI/Dorada vs. the ROH guys was fun. Dug BUSHI's Super Delfin Halloween costume. Dorada's dive over the stairwell in the Korakuen stands seemed like a stupidly risky spot to try in an essentially nothing match. I'm annoyed that they jobbed KUSHIDA/Shelly (the current Jr. Tag champions!) to Romero/Koslov, whose shtick I find incredibly tired at this point.

 

Kozov is getting chubby, as it looks like he can't work out properly with that shoulder injury. Hopefully that win doesn't foreshadow a tournament win & title challenge, because I think everybody is sick of that match.

[Childs]

I thought the six man was great, and I LOVED the Ishii/Goto stuff. The difference of opinion is probably because I like Goto a lot, probably as a Top 20 guy worldwide right now (or close to it), and i'm into stuff like rope running, lariat battles, and elbow exchanges.

 

Question, Joe: Do you actively enjoy the back-and-forth elbow battles in New Japan? Or is it more like you accept them as part of a style you like overall?

 

I ask because it seems those strike exchanges irritate a lot of the skeptics about modern New Japan (and yes, they irritate me, even though I'm enjoying the promotion overall). But I'm unclear if those who truly love New Japan also love that aspect of the style.

[Tim Cooke]

Watched the main event from the Korakuen Hall show after reading some thoughts about it here and on twitter.

 

I enjoyed it for what it was but had also read that it was comparable to the 90's AJPW 6 man tags. I obviously didn't go in with expectations of it coming close to the two best Korakuen Hall 6 man tags of the 90's (10/28/90 and 4/20/91) but Korakuen Hall crowds still deliver today so I was looking forward to seeing what they did.

 

The good:

 

* Good heat and as mentioned above, the Tanahashi/Okada tag in got a big pop

* Chaos did a nice job mixing in double and triple teams that didn't drift into that excessive US Indy/Dragon Gate triple teams where they run through so many, so quickly that it becomes mind numbing

* They went about the right length, didn't get excessive, and left me wanting to see more - which is the point of almost all non-Mexico trios matches

 

The not-so-good (wouldn't say these things were bad, but they stood out to me):

 

* When to save and when to kick out. There were a few times in the match where it was clear the crowd was ready to pop big for a kick out but there was a save by a team mate that lessened or negated whatever heat was coming from the crowd. This shouldn't be a problem with wrestlers who have this much experience but it was something that jumped out at me right away

* The Goto/Ishii elbow exchanges. These were much more reserved than what you would see in anything in NOAH post 2001, so that is a positive in itself, but great strike exchanges add to a match. This didn't add anything.

 

I list the not so good because it goes hand in hand with the AJPW trios matches comparison. The only comparison I could see is that they used 6 of their main stars in a trios match at the top of a Korakuen Hall show.

 

Structurally, they got the pairings right but instead of milking the Tanahashi/Okada tag in the third segment or starting them off against each other (Misawa/Jumbo and Misawa/Kawada usually did the opening pair off or the third exchange - can't remember an instance of them going second but obviously don't remember every AJPW trios from memory), they decided to go second. The pop Tanahashi and Okada got was good but it felt like a missed opportunity if they would have had Goto and Ishii go second. A small gripe and not something that really means a lot in the overall scheme of things but something that definitely keeps it from even approaching the AJPW trios matches status.

 

The top rung (10/28/90 and 4/20/91) and middle rung (5/26/90, 8/18/90, 10/15/91, and 1/24/92) Korakuen Hall AJPW trios matches leave this in the dust for overall heat, moves, execution, and story progression. That's really not a knock against this match since the first two (and 10/15/91) would all rank as historically great for me personally but it also doesn't jive with the AJPW trios comparison. I've watched and enjoyed a fair amount of New Japan this year. Would have been interesting to see a more junior member in on the Tanahashi/Shibata team, specifically someone like Homna, who killed it with Ishii in the G-1. That would have given the match that Fuchi/Ogawa/Kikuchi/Akiyama dynamic that really helped something like the 10/15/91 match, where Misawa was legit injured so he couldn't work much so his team was essentially Kawada and Kikuchi going up against the "A" squad from Jumbo's side. That's fantasy booking and I'm not holding it against the match in the context of 2014, but as a comparison to the 90's matches, it's a valid point.

 

I would probably go ***1/4, which in 2014 is something well worth watching for me. I watched this with Paul, who has watched almost every New Japan show this year and he was even a little lower, going about ***.

[W2BTD]

 

I thought the six man was great, and I LOVED the Ishii/Goto stuff. The difference of opinion is probably because I like Goto a lot, probably as a Top 20 guy worldwide right now (or close to it), and i'm into stuff like rope running, lariat battles, and elbow exchanges.

 

Question, Joe: Do you actively enjoy the back-and-forth elbow battles in New Japan? Or is it more like you accept them as part of a style you like overall?

 

I ask because it seems those strike exchanges irritate a lot of the skeptics about modern New Japan (and yes, they irritate me, even though I'm enjoying the promotion overall). But I'm unclear if those who truly love New Japan also love that aspect of the style.

 

 

They don't bother me at all, and when done at the right time (right at the bell by sluggers like Ishii or Shibata, or when both guys are frustrated that they haven't been able to put the other away, etc) they add a ton excitement to a match for me.

 

In short, yes, I enjoy the strike exchanges and will pop for them. They represent the FIGHT that I like to see in my puro.

[WingedEagle]

I like the strike exchanges when done infrequently. Lately it feels like they're a part of every single Goto, Shibata and Ishii match which becomes more than overkill when these guys aren't in the same match. I also don't like when they'll stand there and actually invite their opponent to strike them, as was the case in Ishii/Shibata's G1 match last year.

 

Something like Naito/Ishii furiously throwing elbows or forearms and not simply accepting it? I'm all for it as long as its not done up and down the card.

[NintendoLogic]

In a real fight, you don't just stand there and invite your opponent to pop you. That's not a fight, it's a macho pissing contest. Beyond that, I think wrestling is a lot better when guys act like stuff that doesn't hurt does than when they act like stuff that does hurt doesn't.

[W2BTD]

They aren't no selling in the sense that they are pretending it doesn't hurt, they are no selling in the sense that "I am tougher than you, you can't break me, and I will outlast you". In that sense, it is a macho pissing contest, and that's exactly why I like it. I like the idea of tough guys trying to out tough each other.

 

I don't really want to get into the "in a real fight" stuff, because it isn't a real fight, it's pro wrestling where you do things you can't do in real life to make it more exciting, but with that said the most exciting MMA fights are two stand up fighters with no intentions of taking it to the ground killing each other in a stand up war. That's the same theory behind the standing strike exchanges in puro matches. Fuck fighting smart, right now i'm out to prove i'm tougher than you, because i'm a man and men are stupid when pride & adrenaline is involved.

 

It's similar to fighting spirit. And you either get it and like it, or don't. I think a well timed "no sell" (again, not really no selling as much as fighting past it with the last bit of energy inside of you) fighting spirit spot is the most exciting spot in all of wrestling.

[WingedEagle]

I'm absolutely with you on a well timed no sell. I'm just not at all there with with openly and regularly inviting your opponent's strikes. Its one thing to simultaneously throw bombs. Its another to stand there with your hands down and ask for it.

[Jimmy Redman]

My actual problem with forearm exchanges is that it renders the forearm itself as a strike...kind of meaningless. When they get into an exchange, they rarely make the actual forearms look good, because they're rushing them and already thinking about the next one. So you get these really short forearms that barely rock these guys and in the end I just think...you're just two guys standing too close waving your elbows at each other. It hardly ever gives me the impression that they're hurting each other with them. So the idea that they're doing some macho, fighting spirit, 'I can take more pain than you' thing doesn't resonate with me, because I don't see the pain at all. They're just going through the motions.

 

It's either that or the long, drawn out, forearm-sell-recover-yell something-return thing, which I just find a bit silly.

[stomperspc]

My actual problem with forearm exchanges is that it renders the forearm itself as a strike...kind of meaningless. When they get into an exchange, they rarely make the actual forearms look good, because they're rushing them and already thinking about the next one. So you get these really short forearms that barely rock these guys and in the end I just think...you're just two guys standing too close waving your elbows at each other. It hardly ever gives me the impression that they're hurting each other with them. So the idea that they're doing some macho, fighting spirit, 'I can take more pain than you' thing doesn't resonate with me, because I don't see the pain at all. They're just going through the motions.

 

It's either that or the long, drawn out, forearm-sell-recover-yell something-return thing, which I just find a bit silly.

 

Agreed 100%. Well said.

 

The majority of the time it looks like the strikes are ineffectual, rather than coming off as the wrestler(s) masking their pain. It is usually a case of the strikes not looking good or like they hurt. If the strikes looked good, I could buy the idea that the opponent is just biting his lip and trying not to show pain but they rarely do.

[pol]

My take on the fighting spirit spot is that if the idea is supposed to be clenching your fists and gutting it through the pain, then SELL IT LIKE THAT. I think it can be a fantastic spot when done well, but in current New Japan it's way overused, used at the wrong times, and not done well. The vast majority of the time it just looks like someone decided to arbitrarily pop up after a move, and reminds me that, oh yeah, the rest of the times they were selling moves by actually looking hurt, and so exhausted they couldn't get up? Well, they were just faking it. The one fighting spirit spot I remember liking in New Japan this year was Ishii standing up after Naito's missile dropkick in their February match, because it he sold it like he'd been knocked the fuck out and had stood up on pure instinct.

 

Since I fortunately just happened to watch this match after reading this thread, here's what I'd consider good execution of a fighting spirit spot (at least in terms of the mechanics of it; its placement within the match leaves something to be desired IMO).

[W2BTD]

Kota Ibushi at the end of the Nakamura match from the 2013 G1 is a great example of one, because it was at the end of the match when he knew he was toast, and he used his last bit of energy to basically say to Nak "I know i'm going to lose this, but i'm making you kill me fucking dead first". One more Boma Ye, done. To me that one spot took that match from very good to a great MOTY contender.

 

That's the thing about a lot of fighting spirit spots. They usually lead to the guy doing it getting immediately KO'd again anyway, or delivering a desperation move and then selling the damage. Very rarely if ever do you see a fighting spirit spot where the guy just takes over on offense like a transition move.

[stomperspc]

I don't believe "Fighting spirit spots" aren't inherently bad or anything. Very little in wrestling is inherently good or bad. Context and execution determine whether it is good or bad. I just watched the CIMA/LIger Super J-Cup 2000 final and CIMA has a couple one count kickouts later in the match that are treated as fighting spirit spots. Contextually, both work because they don't come after really huge moves and they fit into the story of CIMA as the young upstart. Execution wise, CIMA's mannerisms and facial expressions sell the idea that he is still hurt but he's not going to go down that easily. On the second one, he doesn't really even make it to his feet. He kicks out early, gets on his knees, and gives a "bring it!" vibe with his mannerisms, but is still selling an entire match worth of damage. That was effective because the context it was used in was right and the execution was good.

 

I think they main issue is fighting spirit spots like kicking out at one late in a match or popping up after a big move, is that they are used too often. They are used in matches and places in matches where they don't really fit. They are also used too much to the point of losing their uniqueness. It is hard to get excited for Ibushi popping up against Nakamura when mid-carders in NOAH or wherever are doing the same thing on a regular basis. It is too much and no longer a special trick to get across a story line point. It is now just a lazy way to try to get a reaction late in the match. "Try" being the operative word because I've seen plenty of times where the crowd reacts much better to traditional near falls in a certain match than they do to the fighting spirit spots in the same match.

[FedEx227]

Maybe I missed them but what 2014 mid-card New Japan matches featured guys kicking out at 1 late in the match?

[GOTNW]

It's a trope in Shibata matches and Ibushi did it one time a year ago. That's it.

[dawho5]

Shibata is great, but he does have a lot of stuff that seems to creep up in every match that bothers me. It seems like he wrestles one out of two matches. Either he's up against a guy who is willing to bang and that's the match or he goes with the matwork on the less strike-oriented guys, then works into his big strikes.

[pol]

Thoughts on Power Struggle?

 

I thought Liger/Owens was a really impressive carry job. Hopefully Liger's run with the NWA Jr. belt isn't just him taking on whatever stiffs Tharpe can provide. Liger proved in his BOSJ matches, especially the one with KUSHIDA, that he can still go out and have excellent matches.

 

I enjoyed the Jr. Heavy tag quite a bit. I wish reDRagon would focus more on the striking and submission part of their act and less on the spotty stuff. I'm not typically a stickler for this kind of thing, but the go-nowhere arm work bugged me here. KUSHIDA has been given two title reigns this year and still feels like a top two candidate for WON most underrated. That said, he's probably better off getting out of the Junior tag division since there's an expectation of delivering the kind of match that doesn't play to his strengths as a worker.

 

I remember Bix referring to later BattlARTS as a "spotfest of potato shots" and I can't think of a better way to describe Ishii/Goto, though obviously the potatoing was a lot tamer than the stuff Bix was referring to. Pretty much no narrative, just two guys crashing into each other for close to 20 minutes. I have to admit I now go into this stuff wanting to hate it because of how much shit I've taken elsewhere for being a detractor of this style, but the sheer intensity and the incredible crowd ended up winning me over. Ishii coughing and spluttering up blood everywhere was such a great visual. That said, this now has a really good shot at being the WON MOTY and that seems insane to me. It was a very good spotfest but it was still pretty much just a spotfest.

 

AJ/Yoshitatsu kinda sucked and Yoshi looks like a dork in that 80s babyface attire. Yet another guy almost kills themselves taking the Styles Clash.

 

Shibata/Nakamura was disappointing. They ran through their usual stuff and just when you think they're about to kick it up a notch and go into the next act it ended. It would be nice to see a pure mat-based match from these two since I believe they can both work the style, but it's unlikely we'd ever get that.

 

Overall a very enjoyable show. They did a great job building to the Dome and now almost everything for that card is in place.

[fxnj]

No way was Ligers/Owens a "carry job." I've seen Owens wrestle for my local promotion and he's clearly a talented guy who's worked really hard to get the opportunity for that match. Agreed on it being a really good match, though.

[pol]

Yeah I probably shouldn't be so quick to assume that. I did think he looked pretty good at times; I liked his wobbly legged deal after getting the knees up for Liger's splash. His forearms really sucked though.

[Steenalized]

I'm halfway through the show right now (up to AJ-Yoshitatsu). Not bad but not particularly good thus far. ReDRagon vs. Time Splitters is easily the high light so far though if I were to star rate it I'd say maybe ***, probably less.