When did WWE commentary go to hell?

[BigBadMick]

I've been thinking about this lately.

 

Lawler seemed fine for the 90s and into the 2000s, but I think he was shown up as tired and unoriginal when Heyman replaced him in '01. I certainly wasn't too keen on him returning, and I think he's been criticised more and more ever since then from all directions.

 

I thought Cole and Taz were fine over on Smackdown and I had no problem with their work. Similarly, JBL was a fine successor - fresh, interesting and capable in 06 and 07. Also, Foley's brief run - Backlash 08 til just before SummerSlam - was showing promise. He knew his stuff and seemed to be improving every week.

 

I jumped into 2010 ppvs this week and was struck by just how rancid Cole, Lawler and Striker were. Cole actually got worse as 2010 wore on and he morphed into the heel role.

 

I was happy when JBL returned in 2012 but have been sorely disappointed by his work.

 

Anyway, what do you think? When did it all go sooo wrong?

 

Is it too much Vince micromanaging? Too much twitter and other distractions?

[Coffey]

I do think it's probably just too much Vince in their ear. Mick Foley talked about it before. You can't really be yourself anymore, you just become an extention of McMahon.

 

Some could argue that commentary went to hell after Jesse or The Brain took off. Thought JR was great on play-by-play, color has never been the same. Vince himself was dreadful. Heyman was good for awhile but sometimes just would rant for too long and they wouldn't focus on the match. He kept trying to get himself and the dead ECW over.

 

Also I'm firmly in the Jesse Ventura > Bobby Heenan camp.

 

I think it firmly went to hell when Michael Cole took over on RAW.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

JR was garbage as early as the early 2000's. I remember me and my friends were all cheering for Coach and Al Snow in their feud with JR and King. That's how badly we wanted Ross and King gone.

[JerryvonKramer]

If Vince is always in their ear, why doesn't he just do the commentary himself? I mean he's probably the best commentator they have on the books and has over 25 years experience in the role.

[flyonthewall2983]

I think about that a bit too JvK but the Mr. McMahon character is so ingrained in people's minds now it would be weird to see him in the booth again. Honestly if Shane ever comes back I think he'd be great as lead announcer. I remember when he did it for awhile on their MTV show with Jim Cornette and he came off pretty well.

 

As to the question, I don't think it's always been perfect. Their best people were Vince, Bobby, Jesse and Monsoon. I've often spoke about my dissatisfaction with Lawler as Heenan's replacement, and I really didn't begin to appreciate him until Paul Heyman replaced him who I hated in the booth then.

 

This was probably one of my favorite moments of Raw ever.

http://youtu.be/VsF2l8c5Os8?list=LLEJaY88iIto9lXe23XnHPuw

[Loss]

If Vince is always in their ear, why doesn't he just do the commentary himself? I mean he's probably the best commentator they have on the books and has over 25 years experience in the role.

 

Vince supposedly thinks he is too old to be overly visible at this point, because it makes WWE look like a company from the past. Which is funny, because even Michael Cole has been in the company for 17 years at this point.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think about that a bit too JvK but the Mr. McMahon character is so ingrained in people's minds now it would be weird to see him in the booth again. Honestly if Shane ever comes back I think he'd be great as lead announcer. I remember when he did it for awhile on their MTV show with Jim Cornette and he came off pretty well.

 

As to the question, I don't think it's always been perfect. Their best people were Vince, Bobby, Jesse and Monsoon. I've often spoke about my dissatisfaction with Lawler as Heenan's replacement, and I really didn't begin to appreciate him until Paul Heyman replaced him who I hated in the booth then.

 

This was probably one of my favorite moments of Raw ever.

http://youtu.be/VsF2l8c5Os8?list=LLEJaY88iIto9lXe23XnHPuw

Hey I've gone on record to say that Vince / Jesse is my all-time favourite announce team. I really really dig Vince as an announcer, either 70s / early 80s Vince or shouty 80s babyface-loving moron / foil to Jesse Vince.

[Sean Liska]

I was just thinking the other day about how much I loved JBL in 2006-2007. Even though it was clearly not true, he did a heck of a job making you believe that SD was really the important A-show and made everything on the shows seem significant. He was funny, he told the stories of the matches well, he and Cole had great chemistry. And now...

[Coffey]

I would have liked to have seen Jim Ross & Jesse Ventura call WWF matches like a sporting event. They were great together in WCW, in my opinion. I think that's my favorite team ever.

[flyonthewall2983]

Too bad they disliked each other immensely when they were in WCW.

[Sidebottom]

I think it was more of a one sided thing. I seem the remember Jesse stating the reason being that JR was jealous of his wage.

[flyonthewall2983]

You can hear some animosity going both ways at the Halloween Havoc show they did together.

[fxnj]

I don't understand where the hate for modern WWE commentary is coming from. Yeah, it's sterile and tropey, but that's par for the course for the product WWE tries to present. If anything, Cole and co deserve credit for keeping their undying conviction to unironically presenting whatever bullshit the company needs them to while dealing with the constant screaming, which Foley showed is not an easy thing to do.

[El McKell]

It's hard to answer a question like 'when did WWE commentary go to hell?' because it's had lots of ups and downs. It was much worse in 2011/12 with heel Michael Cole and Booker T, or the horrible commentary team of Vince and Doc Hendrix, I think Cole is pretty damn good right now even if Lawler and JBL are terrible.

But what do I know my favourite commentary team is Mike Tenay and Don West

[Timbo Slice]

Well, WWE took their best announcer off the air and put him in a way less visible role as the commissioner of NXT, so I'm not sure how much they value commentary right now.

 

They also don't really have a distinctive voice. Ross was distinctive, Schiavone to an extent was distinctive, early King, even Styles to an extent, and he was such a one-trick pony that he was at least something different to listen to. I never got that with Cole, don't get it with JBL, don't get why Alex Riley is behind a microphone.

 

Hell, I'd love a shot but at this point, I can't imagine me wanting to call something straight with someone screaming in my ear. I just don't think they care about commentary. It's at the bottom of their list of importance when it comes to production of a show, and that's on McMahon and Dunn.

[BigBadMick]

Well, WWE took their best announcer off the air and put him in a way less visible role as the commissioner of NXT, so I'm not sure how much they value commentary right now.

 

They also don't really have a distinctive voice. Ross was distinctive, Schiavone to an extent was distinctive, early King, even Styles to an extent, and he was such a one-trick pony that he was at least something different to listen to. I never got that with Cole, don't get it with JBL, don't get why Alex Riley is behind a microphone.

 

Hell, I'd love a shot but at this point, I can't imagine me wanting to call something straight with someone screaming in my ear. I just don't think they care about commentary. It's at the bottom of their list of importance when it comes to production of a show, and that's on McMahon and Dunn.

That's the really frustrating thing - commentary should be your entry point to everything. Great commentary really enhances the product.

[BigBadMick]

It's hard to answer a question like 'when did WWE commentary go to hell?' because it's had lots of ups and downs. It was much worse in 2011/12 with heel Michael Cole and Booker T, or the horrible commentary team of Vince and Doc Hendrix, I think Cole is pretty damn good right now even if Lawler and JBL are terrible.

But what do I know my favourite commentary team is Mike Tenay and Don West

Yeah the question posed didn't really suit my opening statement. I agree that it goes up and down, and I pointed out various teams I've enjoyed in the last decade or so. It's not as straightforward as a gradual - or sudden - decline. It's peaks and troughs. Hell, Striker was well received in his initial ECW run in the booth.

[El-P]

Lawler is pretty much worthless since the Attitude era. Not that he was ever that great anyway, but "puppies ! puppies !" killed it for me. Ross got annoying pretty quickly at this time too, most probably by 99. But Ross had been annoying in the past too at points, for all the talk about him being the greatest ever, there have been time in UWF and WCW when you just wanted him to shut the fuck up about college sports, or take a valium when he was getting way too excitable.

 

The modern announcing is just unlistenable. Lawler should have been sent to pasture 15 years ago. Cole is unbearable. But yeah, way too micromanaged anyway, and way too much time about plugging stupid social media shit.

[BillThompson]

The combination of Byron Saxton and Tom Phillips has been really great on Main Event/Superstars/NXT. Pair them with Regal and they are instantly the best announce team the WWE has ever had, and approaching the level of some of the WWF great teams. Problem is that you can tell that Vince/Dunn are concerned with stripping away everything that makes them a great, and uniquely different, duo. Phillips has been great at recalling history and relaying it to the audience. Whenever he announces something where Vince/Dunn are involved word is they tell him to tone down that stuff because no one cares. Basically, it doesn't matter about the announcers anymore, as long as Vince/Dunn are micromanaging it will be paltry.

[BigBadMick]

Ok, the 'Vince screaming in everyone's ear' thing - when did it start? Or start to really hurt the commentary, anyway.

 

For all the criticism WWE gets on various fronts, commentary isn't as closely studied as many other areas.

[ohtani's jacket]

I would have liked to have seen Jim Ross & Jesse Ventura call WWF matches like a sporting event. They were great together in WCW, in my opinion. I think that's my favorite team ever.

 

Really? Ross wouldn't play off Ventura at all. I much prefered Tony and Jesse.

[JerryvonKramer]

Same OJ. Tony seemed to take Jesse's bullying personally, which makes it both hilarious and at times genuinely uncomfortable. Tony was a company man, so Jesse could have a great time ruffling his feathers. Also, by 93, Ventura wasn't pulling any punches -- he didn't really give a shit and so would just say things to amuse himself. On some shows Tony is visibly struggling to stay on point. On others he's dying to crack up.

 

If I was to rank Ventura partners on "on screen chemistry" with Jesse they'd go:

 

1. Vince

2. Tony

3. Monsoon

4. Jim Ross

 

Ventura was trying to be all "Eduard Carpentier" workrate sports caster with Ross, especially as Ross would no-sell his attempts at banter. Probably also because Ventura was a little bit scared of Bill Watts. I think they made an awkward pairing.

 

Jesse is at his best when he can bully and cajole the play-by-play guy. With Vince it's entertaining because Vince was so over-the-top ridiculous in his support of Hogan and other faces that they'd have some tremendous back and forths, and because he was legit the boss there's only so far Jesse could go. Tony gave a lot less back but Jesse dominating this nice family guy who is trying to do his professional best is gold.

 

I really wish we'd got Jesse / Mooney and Jesse / Eric just to see how each of them would have handled it.

 

I think Ross handled it the worst by quite a long way, although Jesse would be a bit easier on Monsoon because there was that respect thing there for a fellow wrestler.

[BigBadMick]

'Tony gave a lot less back but Jesse dominating this nice family guy who is trying to do his professional best is gold.'

 

If you ever get to watching JBL/Cole in '06 - '07 you'll see a familiar dynamic, Parv.

[Sidebottom]

Vince and Jesse hosting Saturday Nights Main Event was golden. Perhaps my favourite ever pairing behind the cans.

 

[fakeplastictrees]

I think this Cole/Tenay Smackdown stuff is getting the hindsight is 20/20 treatment. I remember those guys being TERRIBLE (mainly Taz) and they brought down some really good shows and segments due to it. I think the bad commentary started when people got tired of JR/King/Heyman. JR/Heryman at points LITERALLY put me to sleep while watching Raw. JR/Heyman/King all over-stayed their welcome and that's when the product started showing signs of being stale to me. So this is mid 2000's.

 

As WWE became more and more corporate and started taking its cues from other sports congolmertes like The NBA/NFL/etc. WWE also adopted corporate commentary. What's corporate commentary? Constant social media plugs, shooting out company buzzwords whenever possible, towing the company line, adpating to all social norms and conventions (regardless of how silly it sounds) as to not piss of sponsors etc. Because of that WWE is now looking for people who can do corporate commentary which is why guys like Alex Riley, JBL, Cole, King, Saxton, and others are all at the booth in some capacity and are showing ZERO personality. None of them stand out as being good or deserving of jobs as WWE commentators. They all come off as shills and in my book the best commentators in history came off as marks.

 

Not marks in the Matt Striker "Oh My God dude! I'm marking out!" sort of way. But in the 'Does this guy know wrestling isn't real?' type of way. JR, Vince McMahon, Bobby Hennan (when he gave a shit), Don West, Mike Hogewood, Steve McMichael (YES! YOU READ THAT RIGHT), and others. These guys all came off as passionate and genuinely interested in the product. The same can be said about the PWG commentators at time (those guys are always engaging and PWG MUST be watched with commentary in my house). The current corp of WWE commentators are all shills, have no personality, and are being mirco-managed like shit. There was leaked audio from a WWE show some time ago and you can hear Cole ask Vince if Cole should say 'longest running...etc..." again as he has already said it 'a shit ton of times'. We couldn't hear Vince but we did hear Cole immediately say 'Yes sir!' and continue to repeat that pharse for the new few seconds.

 

WWE also doesn't like personality- look what happened to Abe Washington. He started getting over and had a live mic and made a funny joke and next thing you know- he was fired. WWE has stock and is a corporation. So corporate commentary is here-to-stay. I feel sorry for the kids going up thinking THIS is going commentary and these are the people they will look to mimmick if they were ever in the position to perform commentary for WWE. It's sad.