Who has the trifecta as a HOF candidate?

[Strand Peanut]

well, at least you acknowledge how childish you look.

 

Don't worry tho, the big bad wolf won't huff and puff and blow the message board down.

 

JDW challenges you to apply the intellect you flaunt.. That's not trolling. It's what adults do.

 

I'm walking out of a thread you started (again) and saying good day sir!

[alexoblivion]

Steamboat claims that they weren't really "smartened" up until the last week's of the training camp, which seems to go against the Verne trainees claim that it wasn't untill their first match. He also talks about learning to take back drops, so it sounds like there was some rope running involved.

[Strand Peanut]

When old timers talk about being "smartened" up, I always took it to mean the more nuts and bolts of the business.

 

As in, this is a booker.. this is the office to call.. this is a finish.. save your gas receipts.. so on and so on.

 

These guys were amateur athletes mostly. They knew they were training, and what they were training for. Do the reps, these are the basic mechanics, you've seen the show.. but it's on you to figure it out.

[Badlittlekitten]

Ft cIf there was an ignore function, he'd be on it. A damn shame too, because he's one of a handful of people who actually give a shit about the 70s. You've got to be quite an asshole to be into 70s wrestling and have me hate your guts with a passion. It's a venn diagram of one.Actually, I'm gone until he's gone.

Don't be daft. He's a melon but really not worth quitting for. There is an ignore function btw. Saved me from seeing strummer.

[Al]

Here's trolling. The Fabulous Moolah.

[DMJ]

I don't know if I get why mentioning Moolah would be trolling. I was going to bring her name up as an honest answer to the original question.

 

I don't know much about her, but I always assumed/thought that she controlled (booked and trained) womens' wrestling nationwide independently (or with her husband? ex-husband?) but was essentially subcontracted by Vince Sr. and others who paid her to bring her troupe in and perform on their shows. Is that at all accurate?

 

So, as a performer, Moolah is already in the Hall, but as a trainer and booker (if she was one), I'd say she has the trifecta too because of her impact on the industry.

[MoS]

I don't know if I get why mentioning Moolah would be trolling. I was going to bring her name up as an honest answer to the original question.

 

I don't know much about her, but I always assumed/thought that she controlled (booked and trained) womens' wrestling nationwide independently (or with her husband? ex-husband?) but was essentially subcontracted by Vince Sr. and others who paid her to bring her troupe in and perform on their shows. Is that at all accurate?

 

So, as a performer, Moolah is already in the Hall, but as a trainer and booker (if she was one), I'd say she has the trifecta too because of her impact on the industry.

For her to satisfy the trifecta of Hall of Fame, her "impact" and her performance needs to be good. For her to not be the most cancerous sore on the wrestling industry, her impact needs to be not be the most alarmingly destructive the industry has never seen. She fails on both accounts.

 

As a performer, she made El Gigante look like Toshiaki Kawada. That bled over to her training: all Moolah proteges wrestled in the same hair-pulling, screaming shitty style that she used. As a booker of women's wrestling, not only did she use her power to hold back talent for 30 fucking years, she also was directly responsible in the devolution of women's wrestling from a reasonably respectable style of wrestling to a pathetic sideshow carnival; bearded women in circuses had more respect than women's wrestling did in her reign of terror. Mildred Burke was not the draw Jim Londos was in her time, but she was good enough to fill out arenas as a performer. No woman in the U.S.A drew a single dime after Moolah took over until horny teenagers started buying Sable merchandise. That is how destructive she was. She killed an entire sub-genre of wrestling, and was greedy enough to pocket most of the money the women did make.

 

If you are going to measure impact in that way, then Jamie Kellner and Vince Russo should also be in the Hall of Fame.

[kaufman316]

 

I don't know if I get why mentioning Moolah would be trolling. I was going to bring her name up as an honest answer to the original question.

 

I don't know much about her, but I always assumed/thought that she controlled (booked and trained) womens' wrestling nationwide independently (or with her husband? ex-husband?) but was essentially subcontracted by Vince Sr. and others who paid her to bring her troupe in and perform on their shows. Is that at all accurate?

 

So, as a performer, Moolah is already in the Hall, but as a trainer and booker (if she was one), I'd say she has the trifecta too because of her impact on the industry.

For her to satisfy the trifecta of Hall of Fame, her "impact" and her performance needs to be good. For her to not be the most cancerous sore on the wrestling industry, her impact needs to be not be the most alarmingly destructive the industry has never seen. She fails on both accounts.

 

As a performer, she made El Gigante look like Toshiaki Kawada. That bled over to her training: all Moolah proteges wrestled in the same hair-pulling, screaming shitty style that she used. As a booker of women's wrestling, not only did she use her power to hold back talent for 30 fucking years, she also was directly responsible in the devolution of women's wrestling from a reasonably respectable style of wrestling to a pathetic sideshow carnival; bearded women in circuses had more respect than women's wrestling did in her reign of terror. Mildred Burke was not the draw Jim Londos was in her time, but she was good enough to fill out arenas as a performer. No woman in the U.S.A drew a single dime after Moolah took over until horny teenagers started buying Sable merchandise. That is how destructive she was. She killed an entire sub-genre of wrestling, and was greedy enough to pocket most of the money the women did make.

 

If you are going to measure impact in that way, then Jamie Kellner and Vince Russo should also be in the Hall of Fame.

 

 

This basically explains why Moolah isn't in the WON Hall of Fame.

[bradhindsight]

re: Dory

 

Booking: Amarillo + head booker for Crockett/NWA in the late 80s on that panel

Training: Dory Funk Dojo

Wrestler: Heard he was good or something

 

Who says no, Parv?

[El-P]

 

I don't know if I get why mentioning Moolah would be trolling. I was going to bring her name up as an honest answer to the original question.

 

I don't know much about her, but I always assumed/thought that she controlled (booked and trained) womens' wrestling nationwide independently (or with her husband? ex-husband?) but was essentially subcontracted by Vince Sr. and others who paid her to bring her troupe in and perform on their shows. Is that at all accurate?

 

So, as a performer, Moolah is already in the Hall, but as a trainer and booker (if she was one), I'd say she has the trifecta too because of her impact on the industry.

For her to satisfy the trifecta of Hall of Fame, her "impact" and her performance needs to be good. For her to not be the most cancerous sore on the wrestling industry, her impact needs to be not be the most alarmingly destructive the industry has never seen. She fails on both accounts.

 

As a performer, she made El Gigante look like Toshiaki Kawada. That bled over to her training: all Moolah proteges wrestled in the same hair-pulling, screaming shitty style that she used. As a booker of women's wrestling, not only did she use her power to hold back talent for 30 fucking years, she also was directly responsible in the devolution of women's wrestling from a reasonably respectable style of wrestling to a pathetic sideshow carnival; bearded women in circuses had more respect than women's wrestling did in her reign of terror. Mildred Burke was not the draw Jim Londos was in her time, but she was good enough to fill out arenas as a performer. No woman in the U.S.A drew a single dime after Moolah took over until horny teenagers started buying Sable merchandise. That is how destructive she was. She killed an entire sub-genre of wrestling, and was greedy enough to pocket most of the money the women did make.

 

Not to mention rumours of her actually pimping some girls. Luna used to tell some bad stories about that if I recall.

[JerryvonKramer]

re: Dory

 

Booking: Amarillo + head booker for Crockett/NWA in the late 80s on that panel

Training: Dory Funk Dojo

Wrestler: Heard he was good or something

 

Who says no, Parv?

Don't think his booking runs were strong enough.

[Al]

 

I don't know if I get why mentioning Moolah would be trolling. I was going to bring her name up as an honest answer to the original question.

 

I don't know much about her, but I always assumed/thought that she controlled (booked and trained) womens' wrestling nationwide independently (or with her husband? ex-husband?) but was essentially subcontracted by Vince Sr. and others who paid her to bring her troupe in and perform on their shows. Is that at all accurate?

 

So, as a performer, Moolah is already in the Hall, but as a trainer and booker (if she was one), I'd say she has the trifecta too because of her impact on the industry.

For her to satisfy the trifecta of Hall of Fame, her "impact" and her performance needs to be good. For her to not be the most cancerous sore on the wrestling industry, her impact needs to be not be the most alarmingly destructive the industry has never seen. She fails on both accounts.

 

As a performer, she made El Gigante look like Toshiaki Kawada. That bled over to her training: all Moolah proteges wrestled in the same hair-pulling, screaming shitty style that she used. As a booker of women's wrestling, not only did she use her power to hold back talent for 30 fucking years, she also was directly responsible in the devolution of women's wrestling from a reasonably respectable style of wrestling to a pathetic sideshow carnival; bearded women in circuses had more respect than women's wrestling did in her reign of terror. Mildred Burke was not the draw Jim Londos was in her time, but she was good enough to fill out arenas as a performer. No woman in the U.S.A drew a single dime after Moolah took over until horny teenagers started buying Sable merchandise. That is how destructive she was. She killed an entire sub-genre of wrestling, and was greedy enough to pocket most of the money the women did make.

 

If you are going to measure impact in that way, then Jamie Kellner and Vince Russo should also be in the Hall of Fame.

 

I honestly don't fault Moolah for training that style. After we've seen the effects of a harsh working style on some wrestlers, who am I to fault women wrestlers for working safe?

[MoS]

 

 

I don't know if I get why mentioning Moolah would be trolling. I was going to bring her name up as an honest answer to the original question.

 

I don't know much about her, but I always assumed/thought that she controlled (booked and trained) womens' wrestling nationwide independently (or with her husband? ex-husband?) but was essentially subcontracted by Vince Sr. and others who paid her to bring her troupe in and perform on their shows. Is that at all accurate?

 

So, as a performer, Moolah is already in the Hall, but as a trainer and booker (if she was one), I'd say she has the trifecta too because of her impact on the industry.

For her to satisfy the trifecta of Hall of Fame, her "impact" and her performance needs to be good. For her to not be the most cancerous sore on the wrestling industry, her impact needs to be not be the most alarmingly destructive the industry has never seen. She fails on both accounts.

 

As a performer, she made El Gigante look like Toshiaki Kawada. That bled over to her training: all Moolah proteges wrestled in the same hair-pulling, screaming shitty style that she used. As a booker of women's wrestling, not only did she use her power to hold back talent for 30 fucking years, she also was directly responsible in the devolution of women's wrestling from a reasonably respectable style of wrestling to a pathetic sideshow carnival; bearded women in circuses had more respect than women's wrestling did in her reign of terror. Mildred Burke was not the draw Jim Londos was in her time, but she was good enough to fill out arenas as a performer. No woman in the U.S.A drew a single dime after Moolah took over until horny teenagers started buying Sable merchandise. That is how destructive she was. She killed an entire sub-genre of wrestling, and was greedy enough to pocket most of the money the women did make.

 

If you are going to measure impact in that way, then Jamie Kellner and Vince Russo should also be in the Hall of Fame.

 

I honestly don't fault Moolah for training that style. After we've seen the effects of a harsh working style on some wrestlers, who am I to fault women wrestlers for working safe?

 

 

I see and understand your point completely, but there has to be a balance, no? It has to be physical enough to at least give the impression that it is a legitimate, athletic struggle, and not some hair-pulling cafeteria fight.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Not if it was meant to be just a sideshow attraction. And one that always had a spot on cards all over, just like the midgets, for a really long time.

[MoS]

Not if it was meant to be just a sideshow attraction. And one that always had a spot on cards all over, just like the midgets, for a really long time.

 

My understanding is that it was NOT a sideshow attraction prior to Moolah. She was the one primarily responsible for turning it into one. And I have watched enough midget matches to know that midget matches are awesome. A sideshow attraction match on wrestling cards does not have to be realistic, yes, but it needs to be entertaining and good.

[Matt Farmer]

 

Not if it was meant to be just a sideshow attraction. And one that always had a spot on cards all over, just like the midgets, for a really long time.

 

My understanding is that it was NOT a sideshow attraction prior to Moolah. She was the one primarily responsible for turning it into one. And I have watched enough midget matches to know that midget matches are awesome. A sideshow attraction match on wrestling cards does not have to be realistic, yes, but it needs to be entertaining and good.

 

It was as much the mess cause by Billy Wolfe and Mildred Burke that left a sour taste in the NWA's mouth. And even before Moolah the way Wolfe booked/pimped out the women was similar to Moolah. Mildred Burke was like a Gorgeous George who worked best coming in a few weeks at a time. The difference is between the two is Mildred Burke had a ton of charisma and Moolah really didn't. Nor was she anything special as a gimmick.

 

Mildred came across as almost like a Ronda Rousey. She was muscular and athletic when women weren't and she had the built in reputation that she could beat up guys, she was legit enough to where people would buy it, plus she was charismatic.

[JerryvonKramer]

Weren't people like Penny Banner and June Byers draws in their own right and more legit-seeming stars?

I always got the impression that there were more "lady wrestlers" pre-Moolah than after her. Like in the 1950s you can think of numerous women who were making a living as wrestlers, like Ted Dibiase's mother Hilda Hild, Judy Grable, Betty Jo Hawkins, Nell Stewart, Mae Weston, Violet Vann.

The whole scene seems more vibrant in general. Who were the female wrestling stars of the 1970s during Moolah's reign of terror?

[Matt Farmer]

You're right there were more full time female wrestlers making a living prior to Moolah and the 70's. Remember though for as bad as Moolah was, Billy Wolfe was just as bad and probably way worse. Hell he and his son beat Mildred Burke up once, and were talking about Husband/step-son. Not to mention Burke slept with both of them.

 

I'm not sure if Penny Banner was a bigger star but June Beyers probably was. Both were better wrestlers but that besides the point. "Girl wrestlers" was the draw in most cases, not Fabulous Moolah. She was a draw like Sky Low Low or Lord Littlebrook.

 

Not a knock on those women wrestlers, I've got to know some of the women that worked for Moolah and some of them are very nice women and were very good in the ring. Two of the more underrated women wrestlers in the US is Judy Martin and Leilani Kai, they were a great tag team.

[jackwebb]

 

No one said there wasn't kayfabe.

 

You seem to think that Kayfabe means that people couldn't watch pro wrestling and figure out it was fake. The reality is that people saw it as fake all the way back to the 1800s. The link MoS points to gives a host of articles showing that. People who, back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, researched wrestling in the late 1800s through the 1930s in the old school fashion (microfilm at libraries) ran across articles like that all the time.

 

I never put any time or thought into wrestling that old. Was watching a movie from 1941 called Shadow of the Thin Man. Don't remember the exact quote so will paraphrase it. They go to a wrestling show and someone says to the main character, played by William Powell, that it is going to be a great match. His response was something like "how do you know? Were you at the rehearsal?" I think back to that and laugh anytime Cornette says, "it was fake and people thought it was real. Now it is real and people think it is fake." He is usually talking about work being too stiff but it is an odd way of making the point.

[ohtani's jacket]

Those Thin Man movies are a lot of fun.

 

I'm sure there was an 1800s equivalent of "you know it's fake, right?"

[jdw]

Daniel: it was "no betting was allowed."

 

And great reference by Webb to the Thin Man series.

[Indikator]

Thank you for this phrase, I wasn't aware of that meaning yet. That's actually my favorite part of research, realizing such things.

 

I laughed at a weekly newspaper from Vienna that had an article after a 1900 tournament in which they stated that they only had coverage because otherwise the venue would have gone bankrupt and the poor workers would have lost their precious jobs. Because of that the altruistic newspaper didn't lambast the deplorable wrestling tournament until now *cue damning review* .

 

I read "Hooker" by Thesz a bit in the last few days and found it interesting how he noted that promoters like Muchnick and Lutteroth were unable to differentiate between a worked match and a shoot. It's interesting to see that even such people who had to deal with wrestling professionally weren't necessarily aware of such things. So who are we to decide who was plain naive.

In similar fashion I have learnt that some Euro Jiu Jitsu "expert" (Erich Rahn) made a PR video in 1912 and it has to be so laughably bad that I just have to see it and read about how people reacted to him and the video in the 20th century. I think looking at how "legit" martial arts dealt with such credibility issues could improve how we should answer such questions.

[Al]

You're right there were more full time female wrestlers making a living prior to Moolah and the 70's. Remember though for as bad as Moolah was, Billy Wolfe was just as bad and probably way worse. Hell he and his son beat Mildred Burke up once, and were talking about Husband/step-son. Not to mention Burke slept with both of them.

 

I'm not sure if Penny Banner was a bigger star but June Beyers probably was. Both were better wrestlers but that besides the point. "Girl wrestlers" was the draw in most cases, not Fabulous Moolah. She was a draw like Sky Low Low or Lord Littlebrook.

 

Not a knock on those women wrestlers, I've got to know some of the women that worked for Moolah and some of them are very nice women and were very good in the ring. Two of the more underrated women wrestlers in the US is Judy Martin and Leilani Kai, they were a great tag team.

I agree with this assessment. Moolah did women's wrestling no favors. But I don't think there was any women's wrestling to kill when she took over. There wasn't a singular women's promotion, male promoters weren't interested in women wrestlers beyond a special attraction and certain power brokers (thinking Lou Thesz) didn't want it.

 

I think it's also worth remembering that Mildred Burke hit her prime during World War II. Opportunities came about for women that haven't been duplicated in such abundance before or since.

[JerryvonKramer]

Who did Verne really train?

 

Was he the guy there training those wrestlers all the time? Or did other people run the training process?

From the Flair / Steamboat interview on that podcast, it certainly seems that Verne was there and hands on, with Billy Robinson there too.

 

There is literally no reason to believe those guys are BSing on that stuff. They have zero reason to lie about it.

[Matt D]

Has anyone ever looked at Slaughter's talent relations/scout/agent work in thinking about his candidacy?