The Trial Of Paul Heyman (Podcast question)

[JaymeFuture]

On this week's podcast we're returning to our trial format to talk about a figure held more positively than our previous trials, and debate whether or not Paul Heyman's booking was more detrimental than positive in the long run for professional wrestling, and we're looking for your thoughts on the subject, considering the following elements:

 

*The human toll his booking created
*ECW's influence on the business in the 90s and beyond (both good and bad)
*ECW's lack of financial success
*Your opinion on his booking throughout his whole career

 

As always we'll read the best ones on the air and credit you accordingly, so do the positives outweigh the negatives for you or vice versa, and why?

 

EDIT - The Trial Of Paul Heyman, with your comments included, is now available to listen to at the following link: http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/8y4eda/SCGRadio43-TheTrialOfPaulHeyman.mp3

[Laz]

Blaming Heyman/ECW for the garbage that CZW/XPW/Russo/etc. spewed out is like blaming John Carpenter for awful slasher flicks: it's not his fault people took away the sizzle and forgot the steak beneath it.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think you can draw a direct line from ECW to the phenomena that has plagued wrestling for the past 15 years: no, I'm not talking about garbage wrestling or hardcore or anything like that, I'm talking about the annoying-as-fuck smarky crowds getting themselves over. "You fucked up" definitely has its genesis in ECW, but I bet "this is awesome" does too.

 

I don't know if Heyman is personally resonsible for that, but he certainly encouraged it. Those types of chants are a cancer on pro wrestling and accordingly I find him guilty your honour. I'd honestly swap Paul Heyman's entire career for not having to endure those smarky crowds.

[cheapshot]

Heyman made ECW the babyface, the brand - I think the chants are a direct result of that.

[BillThompson]

Blaming Heyman/ECW for the garbage that CZW/XPW/Russo/etc. spewed out is like blaming John Carpenter for awful slasher flicks: it's not his fault people took away the sizzle and forgot the steak beneath it.

 

CZW was, and still is, a far superior version of ECW. Except DJ Hyde is probably an even scummier human than Paul Heyman.

 

As for the question,

 

I'd say Heyman's booking deserves to be ripped to shreds. He never made a dime with ECW, in fact he lost money year after year and only survived because of financial assistance from outside sources. I may loathe RVD as a worker, but he was ready to be a star in ECW. The fans wanted him, there was no reason for him not to be the man. Heyman instead books RVD in secondary feuds until RVD gets hurt and then comes back at a time when the company is so far gone it no longer matters. But hey, pushing a never over Justin Credible to the very top of the promotion sure was genius booking.

 

Let's not forget, it was Heyman who pushed hard for PPV, and brought forth the narrative of PPV being the holy grail for ECW. By all accounts it was PPV that ultimately sped along the demise of ECW. A major reason for this is because Heyman could not book for a larger scale, or realize the limitations his company needed to work within. When he was booking within a bandbox; think Pit Bulls and Raven era, Heyman could be a really good booker. However, he never found a way to turn even his best booking into money, and that's all the evidence needed to bury Heyman as a booker.

 

Parv is right though, his influence goes beyond just his booking, and it lies mainly in the fucking awful smark crowds that make up the majority of wrestling crowds these days. Maybe the idiotic "This is awesome," or "This is wrestling" chants would have come about anyways, but I don't think anyone can deny that they helped to bring about the current terrible era in wrestling fandom.

 

Allan is right too, Heyman did make the promotion of ECW itself into the star. I'd say that may be his most detrimental contribution of all. It's not like Heyman originated that way of thinking, but he pushed it really hard. And look at the state of wrestling today, and the complete lack of stars compared to the star that is the promotion. Damo isn't the star, it's Progress Wrestling that is the star. Drew Gulak isn't the star, it's CZW that is the star. Seth Rollins isn't the star, it's WWE that is the star. It's an absolutely sad state of affairs, and Heyman definitely helped to continue its growth.

[Sean Liska]

To me its always unfair to just say that Heyman's booking didn't draw any money. Look at those ECW TV shows from 1993. Look at how small-time indy it was. His booking grew ECW into something that could go into a Chicago and draw 4,000 or 3,000 in Buffalo or 4,000 in Pittsburgh or 3,000 in Dayton. ROH has similar exposure and can't top 1,000. You can knock the business model for not turning a profit, but the creative put an impressive amount of asses in seats.

 

Since the national expansion of the mid-80's, no other company that started as an indy fed ever grew close to what ECW did. Because of the ability to make stars and, yes, get brand loyalty.

[BillThompson]

I'm usually not one to discuss the financial side of the business. But, finances are pretty easy in the sense that you are only successful if you are making money. Heyman made no money with his booking, therefore it didn't draw. Bringing in 3,000 fans didn't matter because he didn't have the model in place to make those 3,000 fans profitable.

 

Someone like Super Dragon never gets mentioned, but he really should be in consideration for an all-time great booker. His product only ever brings in 250-300 fans, but he knows what to do to make money and PWG continually makes money and turns a profit year after year. From a pure financial perspective it's not how many asses that are in the seats that matter, or the size of the arena; it's whether or not those asses lead to you walking away with more money in your pockets than when you started the day.

[Sean Liska]

To me that's the business model and not a sign that the booking sucked. The booking grew company revenue tremendously, in a way that no one else has been able to in the post-84 era. The fact that the Monday Night Wars were going on and he felt compelled to pay Taz $150,000 a year when he didn't really have the money is separate from the fact that he took Taz from being an unknown and made him a guy that could go on the road and draw 2K-3K. And no one else has been able to create stars that can draw at the same level.

[concrete1992]

I'm usually not one to discuss the financial side of the business. But, finances are pretty easy in the sense that you are only successful if you are making money. Heyman made no money with his booking, therefore it didn't draw. Bringing in 3,000 fans didn't matter because he didn't have the model in place to make those 3,000 fans profitable.

 

Someone like Super Dragon never gets mentioned, but he really should be in consideration for an all-time great booker. His product only ever brings in 250-300 fans, but he knows what to do to make money and PWG continually makes money and turns a profit year after year. From a pure financial perspective it's not how many asses that are in the seats that matter, or the size of the arena; it's whether or not those asses lead to you walking away with more money in your pockets than when you started the day.

The booking drew fans but not money. I think it is foolhardy to say the money was the be all end all in this case when discussing the booking. Heyman is a terrible businessman but not sure saying he didn't turn a profit made him a poor booker is on the up and up there. If there was something else there that sprinkles that "OH BABY" on it then that'd be cool.

[BillThompson]

 

I'm usually not one to discuss the financial side of the business. But, finances are pretty easy in the sense that you are only successful if you are making money. Heyman made no money with his booking, therefore it didn't draw. Bringing in 3,000 fans didn't matter because he didn't have the model in place to make those 3,000 fans profitable.

 

Someone like Super Dragon never gets mentioned, but he really should be in consideration for an all-time great booker. His product only ever brings in 250-300 fans, but he knows what to do to make money and PWG continually makes money and turns a profit year after year. From a pure financial perspective it's not how many asses that are in the seats that matter, or the size of the arena; it's whether or not those asses lead to you walking away with more money in your pockets than when you started the day.

The booking drew fans but not money. I think it is foolhardy to say the money was the be all end all in this case when discussing the booking. Heyman is a terrible businessman but not sure saying he didn't turn a profit made him a poor booker is on the up and up there. If there was something else there that sprinkles that "OH BABY" on it then that'd be cool.

 

 

I gave examples of the more artistic side of his booking earlier. The push to the moon for a never over Justin Credible, refusing to put RVD in the top spot, positioning the company as the star as opposed to the wrestlers, keeping Tajiri and Crazy in a never ending repeat cycle, pushing Sabu post-1997, etc.

[concrete1992]

Not exactly sure that still beats the BOLD claim of CZW being a superior ECW. Which has had its own share of poor decisions.

[BillThompson]

Not exactly sure that still beats the BOLD claim of CZW being a superior ECW. Which has had its own share of poor decisions.

 

Oh, they certainly do, would never deny that. I'm not about to push Zandig or Hyde as great bookers, but I've gotten way more enjoyment out of CZW than I ever did out of ECW.

[Sean Liska]

RVD was supposed to beat Awesone for the title and they shot the big angle where Awesome destroyed RVD at the Arena. Then, RVD broke his ankle and Awesone left. Then the idea was for RVD to chase Credible. But they realized they were going to lose TV, and the idea was to save it for their new outlet. Obviously that never came.

 

Sabu post-97 was more of an upper card guy with name value, Taz and RVD were ahead of him on the depth chart.

 

Agreed on things getting very repetitive during the TNN run.

[The Man in Blak]

1. Does Heyman's tenure as the lead writer for Smackdown earn him any credit here?

2. How much of the "damage" caused by ECW should actually be laid at the feet of Memphis?

[grapplin' apple]

In my opinion, none of the damage can be laid at the feet of Memphis. Memphis ran the Tupelo Concession Brawl once every couple of years. ECW ran it seemingly every night. It's true Memphis had brutal feuds with bloodletting, but they hardly worked as over a top "hardcore" style of ECW. No one in Memphis would have jumping off a balcony as their gimmick.

[SteveJRogers]

1. Does Heyman's tenure as the lead writer for Smackdown earn him any credit here?

2. How much of the "damage" caused by ECW should actually be laid at the feet of Memphis?

Big difference is the fan reaction and the idea of the promotion being the number one babyface. Did any of the Memphis crowds (forget the never ending debate of how "smart" to the business they were back in the day) break out in chants of the promotion's intials the way fans would chant E-C-DUB! E-C-DUB! Even at non ECW events!

[Fando]

I have trouble remembering any really great angles after the Mr Monday Night-Lawler-and Cornette deal. And even for that one, I don't remember what the payoff was. Just guys being put together based on match potential (Tanaka-Awesome, RVD-Lynn). They're right to push his legacy on WWE TV as someone that nurtured talent foremost. But when you look at what become of the last surviving ECW roster, I think he was probably more successful there in WWE than ECW.

 

Implying RVD was not portrayed as a star at that time sounds wacky. I'd have to rewatch the TNN stuff. It seemed before that that the TV was great but the PPVs were dissapointing but after the TV deal the shows sucked and the PPVs got a little bit better overall.

 

As far as the human toll of ECW, I think the Shane Mcmahon-Angle-Benoit-Hardys top this era of weekly cage dives, chairshots, announcer's table and ladder spots was much worse and more widespread throughout a larger roster. He shares blame for that but really it only changed the business because Vince allowed it to. It never really got over or was pushed as hard in WCW to the same extent.

[Bierschwale]

If we're going to have an extended Heyman thread, I need to see if I'm right on what I think that Dylan's theory about the FBI is. True Romance, right?

[C.S.]

Not guilty!

 

All of the things Heyman and ECW are being raked over hot coals for in this thread were an absolute necessity at the time.

 

- The brand being the true star: With talent constantly being poached by the big two (mostly WCW), this was quite frankly smart business.

 

- Fans being "a part of the show": At the time, both the WWF and WCW were so sterile and corporate that the fans were kept "at a safe distance." ECW was the antithesis of that. Its shows had a homegrown, grassroots feel, and this was a major part of that. Again, smart business. I hate the "This is Awesome," etc. type of smark bullshit now as much as anyone else, but I understand why it was encouraged at the time. It made ECW different, and that was important.

 

- Hardcore style: Damaging, yes - but ECW also showcased technical wrestling and lucha libre before WCW made the latter a staple on Nitro. Heyman, for better or worse, basically let the wrestlers do what they wanted, and they all wanted to top each other.

 

Saying Credible was "never over" is a gross exaggeration IMO. He had a solid following. Pushing him to the World Title was a mistake, but I think the recognition of that and subsequent backlash only happened in hindsight - pretty immediate hindsight at the time, but still.

 

RVD's push has been covered very well in this thread, so I have nothing to add to that. It's obvious his injury derailed whatever plans were in place for him.

[Johnny Sorrow]

"This Is Awesome" came after ECW.

[UKWildcat]

 

1. Does Heyman's tenure as the lead writer for Smackdown earn him any credit here?

2. How much of the "damage" caused by ECW should actually be laid at the feet of Memphis?

Big difference is the fan reaction and the idea of the promotion being the number one babyface. Did any of the Memphis crowds (forget the never ending debate of how "smart" to the business they were back in the day) break out in chants of the promotion's intials the way fans would chant E-C-DUB! E-C-DUB! Even at non ECW events!

As someone who went to the Louisville Gardens weekly...no, you'd never hear that (chants, etc). It was strictly "Go Jerry go!" or "go Bill go!". I'm trying to think the best way to describe it: it was like the fans were sucked into a time warp when they walked into the Gardens, locking them into a state of the 70s . If you beat Bill Dundee (especially by cheating), then by God, I'm jumping out of my seat, shooting you (the heel) the finger and saying "fuck you you mother fucking piece of shit", as your seven year old stood next to you, chocolate all over their face from eating their fudge bar.

 

That was Memphis rasslin until it died.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Chanting the promotion's letters is a douche chilly deal now. It happened at the tiny Indy show I went to here, that I had a blast at, but it's awful now.

But when it was ECW in the mid Nineties it was something new and was kinda fucking cool. Especially given the state of WWF and WCW at the time. At the time, that shit was fun and cool and different.

And really, Who cares if people do it now and it stinks? If people are having fun then let them have fun. I hated the chanting of the initials at that Indy show but the folks next to me were doing it and loving it. I just kept my mouth shut cause who am I to shit on them having fun?

 

And as far as the topic, You don't promote your wrestling product thinking about how it may effect the future, you promote your show for the time it's happening.

[C.S.]

"This Is Awesome" came after ECW.

 

I didn't mean that particular chant specifically, just the general trend of smark chants like that, which were more or less popularized in ECW.

 

And as far as the topic, You don't promote your wrestling product thinking about how it may effect the future, you promote your show for the time it's happening.

 

Agreed. That's the exact point I was trying to make. You worded it perfectly.

[JerryvonKramer]

Johnny Sorrow in defending something against criticism shocker!

[El-P]

I'm an ECW fan. And there are lot worse things than chants that came from ECW.

 

And really, the most annoying "chant" ever is "What ?".