Best Babyface Ever?

[Frankensteiner]

This is such a tough question because there's so many potential candidates. Some of my favorites:

 

Bret Hart - Maybe he stood out because of his serious approach in comparison to his surroundings in the WWF, but to me he was super convincing both in and out of the ring. I liked his more realistic approach to selling and he would always pull out something new to outsmart his opponents. Totally great babyface in a variety of different situations: going up against monsters, getting revenge against Lawler (though we didn't get to see enough of that side of him), great at having matches with other babyfaces even when he had to straddle the line between face and heel, etc.

 

Volk Han - I actually think there's plenty of similarities between he and Bret in their respective promotions and so I like him for many of the same reasons. Han was awesome at pulling out new stuff and coming up with creative new counters. Like Bret, he was great in a variety of different situations: could fight big guys (Vrij, Tariel, Nyman), the other Russians (Zouev, Kopylov), or have great face vs face matches against the Japanese natives (Maeda, Yamamoto, Tamura, TK). Always came across as super classy in the end.

 

Tito Santana - Although Matt hit on the often simple structure to his matches, I thought his selling and comebacks are some of the best ever. The obvious comparisons here would be Martel and Steamboat. I think Tito is just as good of a worker as either of them, but no way do those guys match Tito on kicking ass. I only wish he had a longer run in the upper mid-card instead of fading after the Savage feud.

 

Atlantis - Best pure tecnico. I don't think there's a better tecnico title match worker in Lucha.

 

Jim Duggan (Mid-South era) - Dibiase and Sawyer feuds. I'm generally not a fan of pure brawlers as I like wrestlers who come across as real athletes but Duggan was just amazing in slugging it out in Mid-South.

 

Honorable mentions: Fujinami, Martel, and Kerry Von Erich.

[DR Ackermann]

Bret Hart is an awful choice. I don't mean to be rude by saying that, but in my mind he is the furthest thing from a great babyface. A good babyface creates sympathy, Hart shows too little emotion to even qualify. There is no desperation in his selling. He's just there.

[Grimmas]

Bret Hart is an awful choice. I don't mean to be rude by saying that, but in my mind he is the furthest thing from a great babyface. A good babyface creates sympathy, Hart shows too little emotion to even qualify. There is no desperation in his selling. He's just there.

Bret is a great babyface. He isn't a traditional babyface ala Martel or Steamboat. Bret got super over by selling and being a great tactical wrestler. He also had the largest baby face reaction of anyone I have ever heard at Canadian Stampede.

[DR Ackermann]

We'll just agree to disagree. I don't think selling played any particular role in him getting over. To me Bret Hart is a natural heel and played a great one even when he was supposed to be giving face promos.

[Frankensteiner]

Selling doesn't play a role in getting anyone over. It plays a role in getting the match over.

[Codysseus]

I think Bret's selling encouraged crowds to get behind him by making it actually look like her was hurt. It probably wasn't something that originally got him over, but it definitely got crowds behind him during matches.

 

Daniel Bryan's run as a babyface since 2013 has been really great, so he'd be up there for me as far as best babyfaces go. Sure, he's a natural underdog and seems like pretty likable guy. But his timing, selling, and aggression makes it *real* easy to get behind him.

 

I also think Bayley has the potential to be in this conversation at some point.

[Loss]

Selling doesn't play a role in getting anyone over. It plays a role in getting the match over.

 

Huh? This isn't the case at all.

[Frankensteiner]

 

Selling doesn't play a role in getting anyone over. It plays a role in getting the match over.

 

Huh? This isn't the case at all.

 

 

It gets people invested in the match and builds heat (i.e. gets the match over) but I think wrestlers get over because of some combination of: winning/push, look, charisma, interviews, and (more recently) overall wrestling ability.

 

The logical conclusion of your argument would be wrestlers who don't sell or sell well won't be over which is not true. You have your Goldbergs, Warriors, Sids, Undertakers, etc.

[Grimmas]

 

 

Selling doesn't play a role in getting anyone over. It plays a role in getting the match over.

 

Huh? This isn't the case at all.

 

 

It gets people invested in the match and builds heat (i.e. gets the match over) but I think wrestlers get over because of some combination of: winning/push, look, charisma, interviews, and (more recently) overall wrestling ability.

 

The logical conclusion of your argument would be wrestlers who don't sell or sell well won't be over which is not true. You have your Goldbergs, Warriors, Sids, Undertakers, etc.

 

No. Just because someone states that selling helps get someone over, does not mean that not selling does not get them over. That is horrible logic.

[stomperspc]

I don't think anyone was suggesting that babyfaces only get over by selling. There is more than one type of babyface and one more than one way to get over as a face. Throughout history many have gotten over via selling and ability to draw sympathy. Ricky Morton, Ricky Steamboat, Shawn Michaels, Mikey Whipwreck, Mick Foley, Tomoaki Honma, Dustin Rhodes, Tsuyoshi Kikuchi, ect. all come from varied backgrounds and all got over as faces primarily because of their ability to sell and elicit sympathy.

[Phil Schneider]

 

 

 

Selling doesn't play a role in getting anyone over. It plays a role in getting the match over.

 

Huh? This isn't the case at all.

 

 

It gets people invested in the match and builds heat (i.e. gets the match over) but I think wrestlers get over because of some combination of: winning/push, look, charisma, interviews, and (more recently) overall wrestling ability.

 

The logical conclusion of your argument would be wrestlers who don't sell or sell well won't be over which is not true. You have your Goldbergs, Warriors, Sids, Undertakers, etc.

 

No. Just because someone states that selling helps get someone over, does not mean that not selling does not get them over. That is horrible logic.

 

 

It is specifically a necessity vs. sufficiency flaw if anyone is thinking about taking the LSAT

[Frankensteiner]

I am not arguing that selling doesn't get the crowd more behind a wrestler in the context of a match. But that to me isn't the classic definition of a wrestler getting over.

 

Something tells me Ricky Morton would be just as popular in the 80s if he were the one getting the hot the tags in those matches. On the other hand, if Morton cut his hair, wore plain black trunks, and didn't talk, there's no way the crowds would have responded to him nearly in the same manner even if he wrestled the same style.

[Grimmas]

I am not arguing that selling doesn't get the crowd more behind a wrestler in the context of a match. But that to me isn't the classic definition of a wrestler getting over.

 

Something tells me Ricky Morton would be just as popular in the 80s if he were the one getting the hot the tags in those matches. On the other hand, if Morton cut his hair, wore plain black trunks, and didn't talk, there's no way the crowds would have responded to him nearly in the same manner even if he wrestled the same style.

Do you think if somebody's matches are getting over, that there is a small chance that they would get over themselves?

[Frankensteiner]

 

I am not arguing that selling doesn't get the crowd more behind a wrestler in the context of a match. But that to me isn't the classic definition of a wrestler getting over.

 

Something tells me Ricky Morton would be just as popular in the 80s if he were the one getting the hot the tags in those matches. On the other hand, if Morton cut his hair, wore plain black trunks, and didn't talk, there's no way the crowds would have responded to him nearly in the same manner even if he wrestled the same style.

Do you think if somebody's matches are getting over, that there is a small chance that they would get over themselves?

 

Selling is only one part in getting the matches over.

[Grimmas]

 

 

I am not arguing that selling doesn't get the crowd more behind a wrestler in the context of a match. But that to me isn't the classic definition of a wrestler getting over.

 

Something tells me Ricky Morton would be just as popular in the 80s if he were the one getting the hot the tags in those matches. On the other hand, if Morton cut his hair, wore plain black trunks, and didn't talk, there's no way the crowds would have responded to him nearly in the same manner even if he wrestled the same style.

Do you think if somebody's matches are getting over, that there is a small chance that they would get over themselves?

 

Selling is only one part in getting the matches over.

 

Of course.

 

Selling can be an aspect of a match that helps get it over. Having over matches can help get somebody over. Thus selling can help someone get over. What am I missing?

[Badlittlekitten]

Why were two ugly ass hicks like the RNR's so over with teenage girls? Selling. It's another tool to build a connection.

[Frankensteiner]

 

 

 

I am not arguing that selling doesn't get the crowd more behind a wrestler in the context of a match. But that to me isn't the classic definition of a wrestler getting over.

 

Something tells me Ricky Morton would be just as popular in the 80s if he were the one getting the hot the tags in those matches. On the other hand, if Morton cut his hair, wore plain black trunks, and didn't talk, there's no way the crowds would have responded to him nearly in the same manner even if he wrestled the same style.

Do you think if somebody's matches are getting over, that there is a small chance that they would get over themselves?

 

Selling is only one part in getting the matches over.

 

Of course.

 

Selling can be an aspect of a match that helps get it over. Having over matches can help get somebody over. Thus selling can help someone get over. What am I missing?

 

First, I would argue that up until recently having good matches or matches that are over wasn't very important in getting wrestlers over. Second, even now when having good matches is seemingly more important, I would say most fans would equate good matches with athleticism, hot moves, and near-falls. Selling would be distant in terms of importance.

 

I will not argue that selling gets crowds more behind a wrestler during the match. But for that to even register, fans need to be attached to a wrestler prior to the match, in which case the criteria I listed earlier is far more important. There are plenty examples of guys selling well only to be met with muted or even hostile reactions.

 

Would you disagree with my Ricky Morton hypothetical?

[El-P]

Why were two ugly ass hicks like the RNR's so over with teenage girls?

 

The South ?

 

(and I say this only half-jockingly, I wonder if the RnR would have been just as over in New York)

[Grimmas]

 

 

 

 

I am not arguing that selling doesn't get the crowd more behind a wrestler in the context of a match. But that to me isn't the classic definition of a wrestler getting over.

 

Something tells me Ricky Morton would be just as popular in the 80s if he were the one getting the hot the tags in those matches. On the other hand, if Morton cut his hair, wore plain black trunks, and didn't talk, there's no way the crowds would have responded to him nearly in the same manner even if he wrestled the same style.

Do you think if somebody's matches are getting over, that there is a small chance that they would get over themselves?

 

Selling is only one part in getting the matches over.

 

Of course.

 

Selling can be an aspect of a match that helps get it over. Having over matches can help get somebody over. Thus selling can help someone get over. What am I missing?

 

First, I would argue that up until recently having good matches or matches that are over wasn't very important in getting wrestlers over. Second, even now when having good matches is seemingly more important, I would say most fans would equate good matches with athleticism, hot moves, and near-falls. Selling would be distant in terms of importance.

 

I will not argue that selling gets crowds more behind a wrestler during the match. But for that to even register, fans need to be attached to a wrestler prior to the match, in which case the criteria I listed earlier is far more important. There are plenty examples of guys selling well only to be met with muted or even hostile reactions.

 

Would you disagree with my Ricky Morton hypothetical?

 

 

 

If Ricky Morton was shitty at selling he would had not been as over or as good as a babyface. Do you disagree with that?

 

Selling is not the be all and end all. If you are really good at selling, it helps a babyface get over. If they are shitty at selling or don't sell, that may be fine too. Selling, however, as you said helps get the match over. That does not mean the match is good or anything, just that the crowd gets into. If the crowd is consistently getting into a guy's matches, it helps to get them over.

 

Thus, really good selling can really help a babyface. Why are you against this?

[DR Ackermann]

Oh yeah, the answer is Terry Funk in All Japan. And selling definitely got him over.

[Gregor]

I'd rate Dandy over Atlantis as a babyface/tecnico. A lot of times Atlantis feels a bit like Sting. Dandy seems more real.

[ohtani's jacket]

Well, Atlantis was a masked luchador and idol to the kids. I think you have to compare him with other masked stars.

[Frankensteiner]

I'd rate Dandy over Atlantis as a babyface/tecnico. A lot of times Atlantis feels a bit like Sting. Dandy seems more real.

 

I thought Dandy had some rudo in his playbook. It was usually fight-fire-with-fire type stuff but I don't know that I saw him always as a classic tecnico.

[Loss]

Why were two ugly ass hicks like the RNR's so over with teenage girls? Selling. It's another tool to build a connection.

 

Exactly! To me, this is the most underappreciated aspect of Ricky Morton. He didn't get over as a heartthrob because of his matinee idol looks. He did it because he was so incredible at generating sympathy that younger girls wanted to root for him.

 

By the way check out this entrance:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsF2aTy2--E

[Gregor]

Well, Atlantis was a masked luchador and idol to the kids. I think you have to compare him with other masked stars.

You're going to have to do some apples-to-oranges comparisons when determining the best babyface ever. Even then, I think Dandy stands out from maskless tecnicos more than Atlantis does from masked tecnicos. Hijo del Santo and Lizmark could conceivably rate above Atlantis. Solar and Villano III probably have backers. Dandy's competition is... tecnico Casas? Other than him, the maskless tecnicos who are as good as Dandy at the babyface aspects of being a tecnico are guys like Brazo de Plata.

 

I thought Dandy had some rudo in his playbook. It was usually fight-fire-with-fire type stuff but I don't know that I saw him always as a classic tecnico.

Okay, I can see that. To me, Dandy was the better tecnico, but not seeing him as a pure tecnico is fair. I do think that he was better than Atlantis at title match wrestling as a tecnico, though.