JvK reviews pimped matches from late 90s-10s

[ohtani's jacket]

Man Cibernetico (11/26/99)

 

btw, is this match online?

 

Not finding out for yourself what's going on in a match is laaaazy.

[Loss]

Thanks to OJ for addressing the message instead of the messenger. I wish that was how it was all the time.

[JerryvonKramer]

Thanks indeed, I've certainly learned something re: AAA and distinctions between styles within Lucha.

 

I'm actually looking forward to checking out the matches on OJ's top 20 list quite a bit. Not saying it has "clicked" exactly, but specific workers (Panther, Wagner Jr, Casas) feel like they've given me a way in.

[Loss]

I've always seen lucha as being about mood first and foremost. I tend to take a big picture view when thinking about good wrestling anyway, so that suits me. In so many cases, trios matches are morality plays, so I am usually looking at how well they pull that off. There is often a fable element to it all.

 

In general it strikes me as more cinematic than American or Japanese wrestling, which is something different from calling it theatrical, which is more how I'd describe Memphis or WWE. I mention this because I don't see the overtone of sport so much in lucha libre, which means a different sensibility when it comes to psychology. I'll expand on this more when I'm not on my phone.

[El-P]

I've been a pro-wrestling fan for 25 years. I never really got lucha, and never got into it. Too late now.

[Sean Liska]

JVK - I feel like you would love the big Panther-Casas match from a few years back. And pretty much anything where Casas has a big role. He's a great gateway to lucha.

[The Russian Daydream]

I've been a pro-wrestling fan for 25 years. I never really got lucha, and never got into it. Too late now.

I'm pretty much with you here. We used to get Lucha on Galavision via the old analogue satellite TV in the 90s and I'll admit to watching most weeks, but it was very rare I actually enjoyed a particular match. The appeal at the time was really just the dives. I've tried getting into it several times since and find myself being less and less interested by Lucha each time, which is a shame because I really do want to like it.

[ohtani's jacket]

Sampling lucha on Galavision isn't a great way to get into it, IMO, as lucha doesn't make for great week-to-week TV. But the biggest obstacle to getting into it is this idea that it's something foreign that needs to be deciphered and interpreted. Lucha can be confusing as heck whether it's because of the language barrier, the inconsistent booking, or the lack of continuity in the television, but it's only inaccessible if you watch it randomly.

[PeteF3]

Count me as someone who'd seen virtually no lucha prior to starting the Yearbooks. That was compounded by the 1990 set opening with a bunch of really angle-intensive lucha matches involving multiple turns and other goofiness. It's not my favorite style, but it is something I've grown to really like and appreciate.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't think language has a huge amount to do with it because the example of Japanese wrestling is right there for a lot of us.

 

To me Japanese wrestling and US wrestling are really quite similar in terms of the working styles and if you look at the intertwined histories of wrestling in both countries, I think it's pretty clear to see that. Yes, some superficial differences in terms of emphais on faces and heels / real sports focus, but other than that I think they are really similar. Closer than US wrestling is to old British wrestling, for example (in terms of the working style).

 

World of Sport, I can imagine can be jarring for some. Being British myself and just clicking instantly with the feel and setting of the place certainly helps for me, but there the working style is pretty different. Not just the round system, but also in terms of the sorts of moves they do. There are a lot of head throws and slams that aren't really slams, and things like that. Not conventional wrestling moves like suplexes or piledrivers. The mat work they do is also a bit different, there is a bigger emphasis on the escape, and the sorts of sequences you see are quite a long way from your average Dory Funk Jr 70s match. But ... there is still enough cross over with the wrestling I know best for everything still to be recognisably "pro wrestling". Having terrific heels like Jim Breaks or Mick McManus about also helps. And you could say language is a factor there, because Kent Walton being such a stickler for the rules and fairness is an integral part of that package.

 

But Lucha has always felt to me like a whole different ball game. A lot of your standard wrestling logic is just ... different. I've often felt like even the laws of physics seem different in lucha. Like a back drop is more "floaty". Matwork feels ... different. So much of what happens feels exhibtion-y or like a gorified form of "showing off" -- more like dancing than having a fight. And these elements all coalesce to make it hard to get excited about, especially for a guy who was always pretty down on high flyers.

 

I mean, I was pretty HIGH on a lot of the 80s Lucha set stuff I watched but finding the will to pick up the next disc was very hard. Like, I did think MS-1 vs. Chicana was a 5-star match, but I didn't find it stayed with me much -- like Chad had that top 6, I think, in the "transcendent GOAT candidate" category, whereas I had it 33 as one of my lower ranked 5-star matches. When you are struggling to connect with something, it isn't easy to keep on going, it's like wading through treacle, and it doesn't take a lot to kill one's enthusiasm.

 

It feels like of all the styles, lucha has by far the highest entry barriers. One reason why I am keeping going with it is because somewhere in my head I'm thinking "well, if I can get into it, it will show that practically anyone can". Maybe I'll get there, maybe I won't. I'd prefer people not to shout at me while I'm in the process though.

 

It seems like lucha is one thing that people are unusually protective of and defensive about -- much much moreso than other things I've been extremely critical of (see 00s indy stuff) -- and perhaps one of the reasons for that is that historically it has struggled to get over with a lot of fans, and not that many are into it, so people prefer a narrative of positivity and praise around it. Contrast that with WWE where a lot of the narrative is negativity and criticism, it's alright to bash that because it's over with everyone. I dunno if that's the reason, but that's what I see. Another reason might be because I don't have a clue about lucha and might be saying stuff people have read a million times before. Whatever, but I am trying.

[Matt D]

Trying to figure out those motives again.

 

I'll try to write something about the journey tomorrow.

[concrete1992]

I know it is ultimately unfair but I feel alright when someone is negative towards a promotional style versus something more cultural.

[JerryvonKramer]

I know it is ultimately unfair but I feel alright when someone is negative towards a promotional style versus something more cultural.

This is a puzzling comment, because from where I'm sitting every single aspect of the WWE and its entire history looks like "something more cultural". I'm not sure wrestling and the local culture can ever really be separated. Bruno, Hogan, Austin, Cena -- they wouldn't have been the heroes if WWE had been based in London.

[concrete1992]

Meaning, disliking the promotional style of Memphis [Pick a promotion or such of your choosing] versus saying "AMERICAN WRESTLING IS TRASH!".

 

So to say you don't prefer the WWE style is not saying you don't enjoy WCW or ROH. To say you don't enjoy Lucha is to say you don't enjoy a country's representation of wrestling (not saying that is what you are saying btw).

[JerryvonKramer]

Okay, good qualification concrete. I agree

[funkdoc]

yea that ties into something pol's talked about before. he said the modern "ESTE ES LUCHA" chants don't bug him like "THIS IS WRESTLING" does because they strike him more as an expression of cultural pride, which i thought was interesting.

 

also i do think there is something to what si's said, and it's hard for me to be nice about this sort of stuff as well...but i'll try. in short, the popular culture of first-world countries tends to get a benefit of the doubt that the rest of the world doesn't - notice how most internet fandoms focus on the US + japan + the UK and not much else? in the case of the former, people are more likely to learn the culture/history and try to understand the unique quirks in a country's form of entertainment; in the case of the latter, people are more likely to write it off as them just sucking at it because they're a "small pond" or what have you.

 

it's a trend that holds true across so many different subcultures that i am convinced there is something there. to any experienced sociocultural critic or follower of them, it's hard not to have alarm bells going off in your head when you see the "lucha is too hard to understand" line that's so common in our world.

 

i'm not saying this is anything overt or intentional, mind you. just subtle psychological biases going on here...

[JerryvonKramer]

I dunno. To my mind, I think Americans tend to be almost hyper aware of, sensitive to (and respectful of) Mexico as a different culture. I think that comes down to bordering the country and knowing more Mexican people. Over here, Mexico is "just another country". I probably think of football first (86 World Cup especially), then maybe the food, then maybe Speedy Gonzalez etc. Honestly, if I made a list of Mexican associations, I reckon Tito Santana would rank top 10. It stands to reason: Mexico is a long way from here and was never part of the commonwealth.

 

But I don't think a single part of that plays into it. I just watch Lucha stuff the same as I watch any other footage.

 

Incidentally, I do feel like I've always had a special relationship with Japan though, cos I was a huge Nintendo fan as a kid and so much of the time we were looking to Japan for the latest releases.

[funkdoc]

I dunno. To my mind, I think Americans tend to be almost hyper aware of, sensitive to (and respectful of) Mexico as a different culture.

 

ok, this is where you're way off i'd say. awareness is a tradition, yes, but it's not a positive kind. the donald trump campaign is evidence, but it goes way back - a huge reason marijuana was so heavily demonized here was because it was The Mexican Drug. "Mexican" here brings up associations with poverty, drugs, laziness/incompetence, etc. that's a largely US-centric point, but that makes up a pretty freakin large portion of the fanbase so hey!

 

i will say that your comments re: japan are EXACTLY what i mean, as a fellow lifelong gamer. i think part of why i've gravitated toward euro boardgames as of late is that i've just gotten sick of the japan fanboy mentality that utterly dominates video games, even as we have more and more good stuff emerge from elsewhere over time.

 

so yes, i don't think it's that you have something out for mexico specifically, but that you do give more leeway to cultures you feel a kinship with. that's easily the most common reason for this phenomenon, i've observed.

 

but you seem to be keeping on and people here seem willing to help you out, so hopefully some good comes out of all this~

[JerryvonKramer]

 

I dunno. To my mind, I think Americans tend to be almost hyper aware of, sensitive to (and respectful of) Mexico as a different culture.

 

ok, this is where you're way off i'd say. awareness is a tradition, yes, but it's not a positive kind. the donald trump campaign is evidence, but it goes way back - a huge reason marijuana was so heavily demonized here was because it was The Mexican Drug. "Mexican" here brings up associations with poverty, drugs, laziness/incompetence, etc. that's a largely US-centric point, but that makes up a pretty freakin large portion of the fanbase so hey! ~

Well yeah granted, that's the other side of the coin. And I'm much more likely to speak to Americans (and let's be clear that's mostly guys here, on my podcasts, students, not generally bigots) who aren't going to be peddling that sort of line. But because you have those negative stereotypes there, it may also play into where some of that defensiveness regarding Lucha (that I perceive) is coming from -- like a wider sensivitt about Mexicans in general.

 

Like when that guy said I was making racially-based critiques, it made zero sense to me (and I hope it's obvious that it makes no difference to me where the wrestling is actually taking place), but if you look at it through the sort of lens you've just outlined, you can see that that charge of racial / cultural insensitivity is never that far away when it comes to Americans discussing something Mexican. (Hope that made sense)

 

Obviously for those of us in the UK, we don't tend to think about any of this stuff. Or at least I don't. A Mexican guy, a Spanish guy, a Danish guy, a Canadian guy, an Austrian, a Chinese guy ... Makes no real difference I don't think, especially in and around London where that could legitimately be the makeup of your office. By which I mean to say, I don't think Mexico has any particular associations here beyond tacos, sombreros, the Aztecs etc. Literally "just another country".

[GOTNW]

Lucha is very easy to get into if you don't come into it with preconceived notions about wrestling.

[JerryvonKramer]

Lucha is very easy to get into if you don't come into it with preconceived notions about wrestling.

Would you agree that that's pretty hard after 20+ years of fandom? Serious question.

 

I mean in general, I'd say a style that requires you to re-learn the rules of the genre from the ground up, or demands you to "forget what you know" about wrestling, is pretty challenging.

 

So perhaps what you're saying is easier said than done.

[fxnj]

It annoys me that people talk about "lucha" as if the only thing out there is the style favored by modern CMLL and AAA. I agree that it's bizarre how the response to someone who says they don't like said style is typically to watch more, as if problems like matches lacking struggle and guys feeling interchangeable in tags will magically go away when you've seen enough. Hence, what I'd recommend instead is to check out some of the stuff from the indies.

 

From experience, the stuff from that Reddit post about the bigger promotions favoring a sterile spot-based style to pop the crowds is generally true, but the smaller promotions don't put such limitations on the workers, and thus give them a much better chance to showcase their talent. For some specific matches, I would suggest Black Terry/Dr. Cerebro vs Hijo Del Diablo//Gringo Loco from 1/24/2010 and Rey Hechicero vs. Charles Lucero from 8/4/2013. Black Terry definitely knows how to bring the grittiness and sleaziness that made MS-1/Sangre Chicana so great and I'd argue it's guys like him who are carrying on the legacy from that match far more so than modern CMLL and AAA.

[JerryvonKramer]

Lucha is very easy to get into if you don't come into it with preconceived notions about wrestling.

One more question I have about this is: in practice, how would that work?

 

Like, I have preconceived notions, for example, about an effective wrestling match being able to engage the crowd and create heat. Should I leave this at the door?

 

The more I look at this comment, the more I don't really know what it means. Which notions exactly does someone need to divest themselves of before they watch Lucha as opposed to wrestling from the US or Japan (or elsewhere)?

[GOTNW]

Are the grandma attending an Arena Mexico show and a Kerry Von Erich fangirl really that different? Wrestling is simple. Lucha submissions aren't any less goofy than WOS cartwheels. Dandy vs Pirata Morgan and Lawler vs Dundee use the same ideas. Ditto Casas/Santo (title match version) and Flair/Steamboat.

[GOTNW]

I'm sure there have been plenty of matches without crowd heat you've enjoyed greatly. Don't see how that would be a problem in high end lucha really.