Fair for Flair: a mini-series

[SteveJRogers]

One thing Parv Flair saying only the WWF title isn't a heel move IMO it's Vince making sure fans know what the really important belt is and leaving no doubt WCW is vastly inferior. It means even more coming from Flair.

I agree. Especially after being forced to give The Big Gold Back, which is why Flair was holding a blurred out tag belt for like a month.

[Superstar Sleeze]

 

To me Flair was a great athlete, with so much charisma who did a lot of cool stuff. He has so many all-time great matches too. The problem is, I don't think he was that smart of a worker.

 

That is the type of thing that puts him down a few spots to me.

 

Pretty much. He's a go-go-go worker who did tons of cool stuff, had a formula that produced shitloads of very good to great matches. He's Harley Race 2.0, and that's pretty great for what it is. One of my favourites wrestler for sure.

 

And he's been overanalyzed for more than 20 years now.

 

 

No he really was not Harley Race 2.0. That's pretty blatantly wrong and just oversimplifies everything about Flair. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY WE DID THE PODCAST! It is dispel this notion that Flair is all movement and all bumps. The key difference is that Flair is constantly fighting back and trying to break his opponent's momentum with short knees and chops. Having watched Harley Race matches from the 70s, they are basically fun spotfests. Race does not really make the opponent earn their offense, he is just content to bump big for them. Secondly, Harley on offense is fun because he has a ton of bombs, but he is not as violent or sadistic as Ric Flair on top. Flair is double footstomping, punch you in the face, maniacal violent sadist when he is on top of a match. Harley was very much a Japanese worker. I think there are so many nuances to the Flair package that for exact reason of people trying to oversimplify him is why so many Flair clones or Flair wanna-bes (HBK, HHH, Stunning Steve Austin, Hennig etc...) miss the boat that every little detail of Flair works together. Take one out and the whole thing crumbles into a one-dimensional facsimile of the Nature Boy.

 

Also, I did a review of Flair vs Luger Starrcade 88 http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32068-nwa-world-heavyweight-champion-ric-flair-vs-lex-luger-nwa-starrcade-1988/

 

Since it is written, does a better job articulating all the points I wanted to make it during podcast and in addition is not as repetitive as the podcast. I also think this is the better Flair/Luger match over Wrestlewar and did go *****. I would like to know if people agree or if they don't (since I have never seen this rated at ***** or over the Wrestlewar 90 match, I presume most disagree) why they disagree.

[JerryvonKramer]

Of course, that post by El-P is also based on a slightly false notion of what Harley was like too. However, I doubt I'd be able to find the guests for a four-part mini series on Race. Ha ha.

[RCS1988]

Flair debuted on PTW 9/9/91, it wasn't Superstars.

[El-P]

Of course, that post by El-P is also based on a slightly false notion of what Harley was like too.

 

Please explain to me what *my* notion of Harley Race is. Since I haven't made one post about Harley neither in the Microscope nor the GOAT poll sub-forum, good luck sir.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

To me Flair was a great athlete, with so much charisma who did a lot of cool stuff. He has so many all-time great matches too. The problem is, I don't think he was that smart of a worker.

 

That is the type of thing that puts him down a few spots to me.

Pretty much. He's a go-go-go worker who did tons of cool stuff, had a formula that produced shitloads of very good to great matches. He's Harley Race 2.0, and that's pretty great for what it is. One of my favourites wrestler for sure.

 

And he's been overanalyzed for more than 20 years now.

 

[El-P]

Holy shit, seriously ?

[JerryvonKramer]

There is a sub-text to calling someone "Harley Race 2.0" that comes with a set of connotations. Since you are telling me now that, based on that fact that's the only time you've ever mentioned Race on the site, it was not at all clear to anyone else what you meant -- why don't you clarify it for us right now?

[El-P]

Well, I can play the petty quoting game too :

 

I'd prefer comments to come from listeners only.

 

 

So sorry.

 

As far as Race goes, I'll write stuff about him whenever I feel like it and certaily not pertaining to Flair. You'll have to live with your assumptions in the meantime.

[bradhindsight]

Seems kind of a waste to have this discussion and not have anyone there to actually argue the points you're attempting to dispute. Its relatively easy to brush off the conflicting opinions when you don't have anyone there to advocate them. This seems more like shouting into a echo chamber for that sweet, sweet confirmation that your guy is number one and best.

 

Disagree. None of the dissenting opinions were brushed off; in fact, each was laid out and addressed succinctly. Part 1 was essentially a research paper with a thesis and the evidence to back it up.

[thebrainfollower]

A research paper on the radio (or web) is a waste of time IMO. Conversations is about well......discussion

[Loss]

He offered for someone to come on for Part 5 and debate him. There's a thread here where people can disagree. Can we get past the idea of this podcast as an example of being unwilling to hear dissenting views?

[jdw]

 

 

 

Harley was very much a Japanese worker.

 

 

He's not a Japanese worker. His core was AWA for 50+ months from 9/64-12/68, 2/3rds of which he spent as tag champ. He made one tour of Japan in that period, with it taking place in his last year in the AWA. His second core was the year plus in the Funk promotion, again making just one trip to Japan as part of the group going with Dory Funk Sr. and Jr. He then anchored himself in the Mizzu territory for over three years, making three more series in Japan, basically one a year.

 

Harley wasn't good at working holds, though that wasn't uncommon: Flair was poor working holds. In turn, most "Japan" guys like Baba and Jumbo (and some will tell you Inoki) were quite strong at working holds. On the flip side, Harley did the suplexes like the Funks, bumped his ass off like plenty of AWA heels along with West Texas wrestlers like Terry and Murdoch and a younger Dusty.

 

*Japan* over time wrestled more like Harley and Terry: suplexes, big movies, increasingly poor/indifferent about holds, bump, high impact. When one considers who was the World Champ when a lot of those guys were in Jr. High School and High School, and how much Baba over time loved Harley, it makes perfect sense.

[JerryvonKramer]

I actually agree with most of that. I credit Race with basically inventing the modern style.

[jdw]

The one change I would make to it would be clear that I think Terry worked holds in an awesome fashion when the match called for it, or he was working in that mindset. Race... never so hot in that.

 

* * * * *

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say Harley invented the style. He still would work holds. They just were boring. In a way, he was similar to Choshu's style, which also had impact coming from a different company. Boring holds, high impact spots. The differences is that Choshu gave the illusion of higher pacing because he did things with a combination of flury and furry, whereas Harley was more methodical in his high impact stuff.

 

Flair certainly had his role in the modern style: since he sucked at working holds and really wasn't enthused to go with them unless the opponent needed to, he had more of a go-go, transitional and near MTYT style that shares elements with the modern style. His 40 minutes World Wide match with Barry is far closer to a modern style way of filling 40 minutes than how one would do it in the 70s or 60s. The big moves have advanced since 1987, but it's really more of a spot focused match than working holds to eat up a lot of time.

 

In contrast, Race's snoozefest with Lawler ate up loads of time with a repetitive headlock sequence that was pretty cool the first time you watch them work through the counter and counter-to-the-counter, but gets old as run through it time again (as much if not more than Backlund-Race working the headlock).

 

Race is a little hard to pigeon hole. His 1975 30:00 draw with Baba, the unending match with Lawler and the MSG match with Backlund are filled with extremely long sequences of working holds (or in some cases A Hold). Backlund-Race does have some terrific high spots in it, but a good deal of that is Bob rather than Harley dipping into the Big Race Book Of Moves. The Baba match is downright low tech compared to their first 1979 title change. The Lawler match does have some terrific bumps, some high spots... but I'd be hard pressed to think the high spot ratio is above Flair-Barry.

[JerryvonKramer]

I watched a lot of Harley and for the most part that I've seen, he doesn't really work holds much period. Even in Japan. There are exceptions, like that Andre match on Classics and the ones jdw mentions, but a lot of the time he's a bomb worker. My observation was that he was much more likely to work offensively when he didn't have the belt. When he did have the belt, he's more likely to give the opponent the lion's share of the match, with the Backlund example being the extreme case.

 

When I say "modern style" by the way, I don't mean modern as in now, I mean the suplex / throw / spot orientated style of the 1980s, as opposed to the mat-heavy style of the 1950s, which kind of finished with Dory and Jack. I'd agree that Terry was better at working holds than Race or Flair, but his style was also more "modern", bump and move, than previous NWA champs. Dory had his share of bombs, but bumped around less, the emphasis in his matches is less on movement (which ironically gets him criticism from some of the exact same people who criticise Flair), Jack had a more amateur base, and does more takedowns than "bombs". Ray Stevens's bumping style is probably the missing link. From what I've seen Pat Patterson worked in a similar big bumping style too.

 

I guess jdw and I are on a similar if not identical page on this. I just disagree with the assumption (not necessarily made by him) that a more action, movement and spot orientated style necessarily means "less psychology". See also Part 1 of this series.

 

Incidentally, parts 3 and 4 coming. Probably will be posted tonight.

[Superstar Sleeze]

I definitely oversimplified. I meant he worked what would be considered a Japanese style with a focus on offense, but he added an emphasis on heel bumping that many Japanese workers don't have. The idea that Harley strongly influenced Japanese style is a really interesting point and I agree.

[Bigelow34]

I really enjoyed part one. It was a great discussion and just because there was no dissenting opinion doesn't make it a wasted exercise by any means. I was given a presentation on the greatness of Flair's psychology and left to digest it and decide whether I agree or not. It was a nice dissection into things you (or me, whatever) may not always think about when watching matches so I appreciated the discussion.

 

Just starting part two, will report back.

[thebrainfollower]

Let me pose a question to Jerry since he seems to regard Flair's WWF run (and the promos ARE amazing). Given that you perceive two of Flair's big kayfabe strengths to be "you have to beat the champ" and "60 minute man", how would you have adjusted his in ring style at the START of his WWF run (when neither of those things applied)?

 

I use for example what I believe was Flair's 2nd televised match against Tito Santana at Royal Albert Hall. This was just before the El Matador change. Tito had not won a televised competitive match in well over a year (his last being a countout against Akeem). He was clearly at or nearly at JTTS. Yet despite that, Flair gave him 80% of the match and won on a fluke. I saw this match (on Prime Time?) as a 12 year old and laughed, thinking "Hogan's gonna kill this loser".

 

Anyway, what if anything, would you have changed in ring to make Flair's run a bigger hit?

[El-P]

Yet despite that, Flair gave him 80% of the match and won on a fluke.

 

Come on, that's great psychology. Well. Nevermind.

[Loss]

El-P, are you going to listen to the shows? If not, you're not allowed to post in here anymore. This is a thread not about Flair, it's about reactions to things said on the podcast about Flair. Brainfollower is engaging points made on the show, so he's fine.

[El-P]

Don't worry, I won't post here anymore.

Still, one clarification before I get the hell out : how do you know if I listened to the show or not ? Right. It's *impossible* to know (and it's not like I feel I have to justify myself either). I can make the exact same comment I just made whether of not I listened to the show.

 

Then again, you just made my point actually by saying this was not about Flair. Well indeed. That's what I thought too. That's why I'm happily getting out of this thread now.

[GOTNW]

I listened to like 20-30 minutes of this (maybe more? I don't remember) and then switched to the discussion about the japanese WON HOF candidates. A few comments:

 

1)Who was the podcast aimed at? I mean I totally understand if you just felt you wanted to talk about how great one of your all time favourites is but did anyone actually make an argument Flair isn't an all time great based on his lack of psychology that you think the podcast could sway? I mean if there's a bunch of folks here that have been around forever and have fully formed opinions on the guy, criticise him for these things yet rank him as a top-20 all time wrestler.

 

2)The discussion about strategy in Flair's matches was pretty ridiculous, seemed like the pretentious blabbering you get from HHH and Shawn Michaels about "great storytelling" and something Flair obviously put no thought into. Of course you can talk about impressions and explanations of his work. Being able to explain why and how something worked in the context of time is great but just because something is logical doesn't necessarily mean it's going to translate to great art.

 

3)As expected you brought up the matwork=psychology point which seems like a really lazy undermining of Bockwinkel's fans but the idea someone isn't a worker with good psychology because they don't use x amount of matwork is mind boggling in the first place.

 

4)Praising Flair's "cardiovascular conditioning" or however it was phrased as unmatched in wrestling history is also far-fetched. You compared Flair to the All Japan guys and said they didn't work at the same pace. That may be true, but that's ignoring 1)them taking much bigger and more visually impressive bumps 2)moving at a higher speed than Flair and using spots that require more strenght 3)All Japan matches weren't workrate sprints. There are also whole genres based on this (joshi, lucharesu) so I can't but into the idea Flair was the best workrate wrestler ever.

[Superstar Sleeze]

I listened to like 20-30 minutes of this (maybe more? I don't remember) and then switched to the discussion about the japanese WON HOF candidates. A few comments:

 

1)Who was the podcast aimed at? I mean I totally understand if you just felt you wanted to talk about how great one of your all time favourites is but did anyone actually make an argument Flair isn't an all time great based on his lack of psychology that you think the podcast could sway? I mean if there's a bunch of folks here that have been around forever and have fully formed opinions on the guy, criticise him for these things yet rank him as a top-20 all time wrestler.

 

2)The discussion about strategy in Flair's matches was pretty ridiculous, seemed like the pretentious blabbering you get from HHH and Shawn Michaels about "great storytelling" and something Flair obviously put no thought into. Of course you can talk about impressions and explanations of his work. Being able to explain why and how something worked in the context of time is great but just because something is logical doesn't necessarily mean it's going to translate to great art.

 

3)As expected you brought up the matwork=psychology point which seems like a really lazy undermining of Bockwinkel's fans but the idea someone isn't a worker with good psychology because they don't use x amount of matwork is mind boggling in the first place.

 

4)Praising Flair's "cardiovascular conditioning" or however it was phrased as unmatched in wrestling history is also far-fetched. You compared Flair to the All Japan guys and said they didn't work at the same pace. That may be true, but that's ignoring 1)them taking much bigger and more visually impressive bumps 2)moving at a higher speed than Flair and using spots that require more strenght 3)All Japan matches weren't workrate sprints. There are also whole genres based on this (joshi, lucharesu) so I can't but into the idea Flair was the best workrate wrestler ever.

The podcast is aimed at people who think Ric Flair is an idiot savant of pro wrestling and had generally little to no psychology that he worked to get his shit in and basically forced highspots into his matches.

 

In your second point, you make two and maybe even three conflicting arguments. At one point, you are saying Flair put no thought into it. Then you are saying we were interpreting it like HHH or HBK and overreaching. Then you follow up with just because it is logical it is not entertaining. So was Flair being logical? Was he just accidentally being logical? What do HHH/HBK have to do with any of this? I have no clue what you are saying in that point.

 

Flair clearly put thought into his strategy otherwise why would he consistently do it just because he does not always articulate well does not mean he did think it out. His strategy was to break the rhythm of his opponents by going to the ropes, using short strikes, crowding his opponent in the corner and using other shortcuts. When the babyface succeeded overcoming this "perpetual motion" offense, he looked better for it and earned his shine/comeback. When Flair ultimately transitioned to heat, he was looked like a cheapshot artist increasing his own heat. By being able to explain it, it shows a strong grasp of heel psychology. This is not a HHH or HBK grandiose cinematic vision of pro wrestling. With a lot of dramatic pauses and overwrought moments. This is a quick-paced, real sports look at pro wrestling. So I don't get the HHH/HBK comparison at all.

 

I agree just because it is logical does not mean it is great art. Demolition matches are incredibly logical, but I think most of them fucking suck (sorry Kelly, I will be happier on TTBA).

 

I don't understand point 3. Bockwinkel is a great wrestler. I need to digest him more. Are you complaining that we perceive people to think limb selling/matwork = psychology?

 

Flair has far away the best cardio conditioning of any wrestler I have ever seen. Watch Clash VI and tell me that's basically not a 54 or 56 minute sprint. Flair's cardio is insane. The All Japan guys every rarely in SINGLES ever moved at higher speed than Flair. I could see your point in tags, not singles. Speed is not everything in terms of cardio. The Dragon Gate guys move fast, but to do it at Flair's level against a Luger or Kerry for 30-45 minutes. That's next level.

 

 

[GOTNW]

 

In your second point, you make two and maybe even three conflicting arguments. At one point, you are saying Flair put no thought into it. Then you are saying we were interpreting it like HHH or HBK and overreaching. Then you follow up with just because it is logical it is not entertaining. So was Flair being logical? Was he just accidentally being logical? What do HHH/HBK have to do with any of this? I have no clue what you are saying in that point.

You're reading too much into it. That's where the storytelling comparison stems from. Yes, I said Flair put no thought into "strategy". I'm not saying Flair didn't put any thought into his matches, I'm saying he didn't put any thought into creating the illusion of strategy. It's a very simple and consistent argument.

 

Flair clearly put thought into his strategy otherwise why would he consistently do it just because he does not always articulate well does not mean he did think it out. His strategy was to break the rhythm of his opponents by going to the ropes, using short strikes, crowding his opponent in the corner and using other shortcuts. When the babyface succeeded overcoming this "perpetual motion" offense, he looked better for it and earned his shine/comeback. When Flair ultimately transitioned to heat, he was looked like a cheapshot artist increasing his own heat. By being able to explain it, it shows a strong grasp of heel psychology. This is not a HHH or HBK grandiose cinematic vision of pro wrestling. With a lot of dramatic pauses and overwrought moments. This is a quick-paced, real sports look at pro wrestling. So I don't get the HHH/HBK comparison at all.

That's just an analysis of the layout of Flair's matches. Your argument is good but your phrasing is ridiculous.

 

I don't understand point 3. Bockwinkel is a great wrestler. I need to digest him more. Are you complaining that we perceive people to think limb selling/matwork = psychology?

Yes.

 

Flair has far away the best cardio conditioning of any wrestler I have ever seen. Watch Clash VI and tell me that's basically not a 54 or 56 minute sprint. Flair's cardio is insane. The All Japan guys every rarely in SINGLES ever moved at higher speed than Flair. I could see your point in tags, not singles. Speed is not everything in terms of cardio. The Dragon Gate guys move fast, but to do it at Flair's level against a Luger or Kerry for 30-45 minutes. That's next level.

I watched a bunch of his matches vs the Von Erichs and his matches vs Luger (one you gave five stars and one Parv gave five stars) and I honestly can't come up with a better response other than "lol" I'm sorry. The Windham matches were more workrate-y but also largely uninspiring, even in that department. I just saw matches that went long. I'm sure I'll rewatch the Steamboat matches six years from now and offer something constructive regarding them.