Loss Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 They saw Jericho and Punk as stars, but more as second-tier stars. They both had decent runs as the top heel. When HHH was teasing a babyface turn in the fall of 2000, Benoit was also pushed as their top heel in the interim. Christian is another. Mr. Perfect has been their top heel. Big Boss Man has been their top heel. Steve Austin was their top heel in late 1996/early 1997 long before Vince accepted his potential as a star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 The worst part of the Reid stuff IMO is how they half assed it. They don't mention his name (lest anyone use the evil Google machine and find out Bad Things), and as mentioned maybe 10% of the audience remembers Ric had other kids and maybe 1% of them know the story. Hell I wonder how many people in the audience think David Flair is dead now since that's the only brother wrestling fans could be expected to know of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 They saw Jericho and Punk as stars, but more as second-tier stars. They both had decent runs as the top heel. When HHH was teasing a babyface turn in the fall of 2000, Benoit was also pushed as their top heel in the interim. Christian is another. Mr. Perfect has been their top heel. Big Boss Man has been their top heel. Steve Austin was their top heel in late 1996/early 1997 long before Vince accepted his potential as a star. I think it is somewhat misleading to make that claim. Benoit was the top heel? Err...only when he was paired with Shane McMahon. After that, I would argue that Kurt Angle was their top heel in interim. They tried to push Rikishi as a top heel because he was getting over very well as a babyface and they thought it would translate to a compelling heel run but when it failed, back to Triple H they went. But Angle was the heel champion (and paired with Stephanie to boot). Benoit was quickly shuffled out of the main event after his program with the Rock ended. Christian their top heel? Not really. Even when they tried to give him a main event against John Cena, they got cold feet and ended up putting Jericho in the match. This also in the same time frame where Triple H was pushed as the top heel dealibg with Batista. Cena was the newbie Raw champion. His programs fell below Triple H's. Then if you are referring to his run in the feud with Orton, it was Smackdown. We all know where Smackdown ranks in their hierarchy-which isn't the top level. Hennig was one of the bigger stars the WWF swiped from AWA and Big Bossman was a Hogan challenger. And this was an era where the top heel wasn't as important as it is now. Back then it was all about Hogan. So I don't think the reference really works in your argument. Of course there are always exceptions but it does seem like Vince has placed similar level of expectations on any potential top heel that he does the babyface ace..in that they have to be stars. I don't think that is an outlandish claim. It makes sense to me that he would do it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bierschwale Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 The Miz and R-Truth main evented a PPV against Cena and The Rock. Vince seems to be fine with top-level heels not really being major stars because it's usually been a fluid position in the company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 The Miz and R-Truth were warm bodies put across the ring from Cena and the Rock, hardly top level heels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 So Slasher, you're saying that Vince sees the top heel spot as just as important as the top babyface spot? Because that doesn't really hold up to scrutiny at all. I mentioned Jericho, Punk and Austin, and Benoit's run as the top heel is longer than you're acknowledging, as he was the sole heel in the four-way title match at Unforgiven before being programmed with HHH, whose programs always took precedent over the world title feud at the time. The point is, even if you do think Angle was the top heel during that window of summer-fall 2000 before HHH was revealed as behind the Austin attack, there were no babyfaces that didn't fit the mold pushed at the level of Benoit on the other side. Jericho was his most frequent opponent, but Benoit almost always beat him, and Jericho didn't get nearly as many main event opportunities in 2000 (although he did get some). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 The only main event heel who has really been treated as uber important for a long period of time in WWE has been HHH. Randy Orton maybe is another exception to the rule as he had a pretty long run on top as a heel. The majority of the time they use temporary top heels, guys get a good push for a few months to maybe a maximum of a year and then get shuffled down the card or turned babyface. The top heel spot is definitely not seen as just as important as the top babyface spot. Not during the Hogan era, the Bret/HBK years, the Austin era or really ANY era of WWE that you can look back at except for 2002-2005 Raw with HHH on top. In WWE the heels are expendable and they're almost always being built up to lose to a babyface and then move down or turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 The only heel I would add to the list would be Undertaker in the Austin era, and he was a clear second fiddle to the Corporation then (until they merged, which is a whole other kettle of shit). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Did anyone catch a supposed picture someone snapped from the SD taping tonight? The pic I saw on Facebook, which may or may not have been real, showed a truly awful attendance - like almost TNA level. Curious if anyone else saw it. EDIT - Ugh, can't post the pic for some reason. But wow. Looks like the pic was taken during the opening segment, and there is literally one person sitting in the risers hard camera side. I saw pictures on the Observer board. There is absolutely no positive way to spin that attendance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 No I don't think the top heel spot is as high of a priority. Vince has always favored strong babyface aces. But I think there is more of a conscious effort to take care of the top heel spot. And I think it is a result of Triple H's growing influence on the booking. He thinks the JCP model of having Ric Flair as the top heel and the top star overall. Of course the heels have to cycle in and out of the spot to keep title matches or programs moving along. But when I think of the term top heel, I think of it as a guy who they frequently turn to for programs against their top babyfaces. This is Triple H. This is Randy Orton. This is Edge. This is Batista. But obviously the babyfaces are also cycled in and out. Sure, Cena is the one and only in a fixed top spot but he isn't always in the main storyline. They cycle. So while I concede that babyfaces are more important, I do believe that Vince doesn't want to put guys who he doesn't see as a star in the top spot, regardless if it is babyface or heel. You don't see Miz or Truth be heavily involved in major storylines even if they were handed the JTTS spots of putting over a storyline that is about Cena and the Rock more than it is about Miz and Truth. Cesaro is a guy Vince would be comfortable once in a while being a challenger for a month or two but he isn't going to make the show about him. They did for Triple H. They did for Randy Orton. They did for Edge. They did for CM Punk. Because they are guys Vince sees as stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Byron Saxton stinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Did anyone catch a supposed picture someone snapped from the SD taping tonight? The pic I saw on Facebook, which may or may not have been real, showed a truly awful attendance - like almost TNA level. Curious if anyone else saw it. EDIT - Ugh, can't post the pic for some reason. But wow. Looks like the pic was taken during the opening segment, and there is literally one person sitting in the risers hard camera side. I saw pictures on the Observer board. There is absolutely no positive way to spin that attendance. I read it was due to a tornado warning in that area. I'm not sure about the validity of that claim, nor do I know if it would cause that many empty seats & the performers still performing if true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woof Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Some NXT thoughts after last night's show.It's kind of staggering the difference between The Ascension in WWE and The Ascension in NXT. The same two guys wearing the exact same gear and using the exact same mannerisms come across as two giant out-of-touch dorks when they're on the big stage, but tucked away in the confines of Full Sail they look like a perfectly reasonable badass team. I mean, they're still no great shakes in the ring, but they just FEEL so different.They seem to have an endless supply of female jobbers right now. Since Takeover: Brooklyn they've rolled out: Billie Kay, Peyton Royce, Sarah Dobson, Evie, Shazza, Kay Lee Ray, Marley, Deonna, and Mary Kate. Weird.I generally love the Full Sail crowd because they make the show's fun and keep the energy high (which is even more appreciated after I sat through an Evolve show yesterday where the crowd brought almost nothing and it was absolutely jarring), but they really need to pick their spots. The "HEYYY WE WANT SOME BAY-LEY!" chant is fun and it seemed to feed her during her comeback against Alexa, but they pretty much killed Jordan's hot tag with the "JOR-DAN" chant (to the Kurt Angle theme). Save it for their entrance, because it's a flat chant.Dash & Dawson are really growing on me if for no other reason than it's so refreshing to see guys who are willing to work such an old school style without succumbing to the urge to add "cool" stuff to their repertoire.Week after week I find myself finishing the show and thinking, "that was damn near a perfect show". The matches are always tight and concise and all seem to have a point. The promo work is quick and - again - meaningful. They don't muck around with the hidden camera bullshit. The stories are almost 100% focused on success in the ring and wanting to be the best/champ. Yeah, being a develomental promotion there are occasional issues with people not being quite as smooth as they need to be (and the commentary team aside from Graves needs work), but it's just such a purely enjoyable 1 hour of wrestling. I never feel like I wasted my time sitting through it and it's the only regular show I give my full attention to when it's on.That being said, Eva Marie is in WAAAAAY over her head right now. She was completely flumoxed by the crowd this week and came off so horrible to me. I get that they like her look, but does she bring ANYTHING to the table that's actually wrestling related? The little promo bits from "France" the past month were fine, but outside of those bits of sarcasm, she seems to be fundementally unable to grasp anything when she's in front of a live audience. She's like Kelly Kelly without the bimbo charm. What a disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conker8 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 http://www.wwe.com/shows/wwenxt/manuel-alfonso-andrade-oropeza-joins-performance-center-28231747 La Sombra signs to WWE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted November 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 http://www.wwe.com/shows/wwenxt/manuel-alfonso-andrade-oropeza-joins-performance-center-28231747 La Sombra signs to WWE That is awesome! Always enjoy Sombra and bringing in some luchadores is always a wise choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 eva marie is one of the only genuine heels in NXT right now because the fans believe she's just "using" wrestling, and that's really important. compare to sasha giving all those interviews about how eddie was her favorite wrestler growing up and she loves the business, etc. - that's why people like her & danielson can never truly be hated by the core audience. smart fans have always been some of the biggest "respect the business" marks around, period. also i dig la sombra, but i feel like dragon lee would be the best fit in WWE of the current CMLL guys? dunno, i'll leave that to the experts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted November 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 eva marie is one of the only genuine heels in NXT right now because the fans believe she's just "using" wrestling, and that's really important. compare to sasha giving all those interviews about how eddie was her favorite wrestler growing up and she loves the business, etc. - that's why people like her & danielson can never truly be hated by the core audience. smart fans have always been some of the biggest "respect the business" marks around, period. also i dig la sombra, but i feel like dragon lee would be the best fit in WWE of the current CMLL guys? dunno, i'll leave that to the experts... Dragon Lee would be great. Rush would be the best heel in wrestling. There are others too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 eva marie is one of the only genuine heels in NXT right now because the fans believe she's just "using" wrestling, and that's really important. compare to sasha giving all those interviews about how eddie was her favorite wrestler growing up and she loves the business, etc. - that's why people like her & danielson can never truly be hated by the core audience. smart fans have always been some of the biggest "respect the business" marks around, period. also i dig la sombra, but i feel like dragon lee would be the best fit in WWE of the current CMLL guys? dunno, i'll leave that to the experts... ...or maybe they don't like her because she sucks at wrestling and at least one point WWE was planning on fast tracking her to be the top woman in NXT. But yeah I'm sure it's because the fans are dumb marks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 She wouldn't face this backlash if she came through the indy scene and was known as a big admirer of 80s JCP. Even if she was just as bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 So in the "how can they possibly make this worse" department, WWE is going to release a press statement on the Reid issue by basically saying they're sorry but it was Charlotte's idea. As in her own father didn't feel she had enough tenure to refuse storylines, but somehow she can suggest something tasteless and no one in WWE had any power to stop it. As a wise man once said, give me a break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted November 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 So in the "how can they possibly make this worse" department, WWE is going to release a press statement on the Reid issue by basically saying they're sorry but it was Charlotte's idea. As in her own father didn't feel she had enough tenure to refuse storylines, but somehow she can suggest something tasteless and no one in WWE had any power to stop it. As a wise man once said, give me a break. Times like this there needs to be an alternative well paying other promotion to go to. How much would Lucha Underground pay to have a Charlotte-Sexy Star feud? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 I read that Austin Aries was spotted at an NXT taping? That would be really cool news for me as I'm a pretty big Austin Aries fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 He's there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Wow, someone on the WO board posted a blurry pic of what looks like AJ Styles.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 WWE statement: “Subject matter this personal is only approved as a result of the strong advocacy of the talent themselves. Notwithstanding that, WWE is ultimately responsible for what airs in its programming.” Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooow. Implying she not only came up with the idea but "strongly advocated" for it is some next level bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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