Roman / Brock vs. Sasha / Bayley

[Ricky Jackson]

They're women. They hug things out after fighting

[JerryvonKramer]

They're women. They hug things out after fighting

[Ricky Jackson]

I think that's the first time I've received a gif response to a post. Big message board right of passage

[GOTNW]

They're women. They hug things out after fighting

It's what they did after the first match. Then they did the Dragonball storyline of the heel becoming good after losing to Goku/Bayley (both the post match and the build up to the second match seemed to indicate this) only for Sasha to turn again during the match and then turn back after the match. That's a lot closer to how TNA would book something than great narration.

[Loss]

The stereotype is that men are the ones who become friends after getting in a fight.

[GOTNW]

 

 

Making fans forget about that match being incredible before the cash-in is part of the political hit.

Most of the audience who doesn't post on wrestling boards, I think, like Roman at this point, but yeah, this is one of the only places where I've seen that match acknowledged for being as good as it was. Most other places, Roman Reigns matches devolve into contests for whoever can post that Roman is gassed first.

In the MOTYC thread on my local forum it's the match with the most yes votes and the match with the best overall score.

[GOTNW]

The stereotype is that men are the ones who become friends after getting in a fight.

Right, but it's a stereotype in a niche where the idea of a female protagonist is fairly recent, and if it comes down to just copying cliches or combining cliches with negative stereotypes like "bitches be crazy" I'd much rather have them do the former.

[goc]

 

 

Making fans forget about that match being incredible before the cash-in is part of the political hit.

Most of the audience who doesn't post on wrestling boards, I think, like Roman at this point, but yeah, this is one of the only places where I've seen that match acknowledged for being as good as it was. Most other places, Roman Reigns matches devolve into contests for whoever can post that Roman is gassed first.

In the MOTYC thread on my local forum it's the match with the most yes votes and the match with the best overall score.

 

I know that Jimmy James frequents the SomethingAwful.com wrestling forum and would agree that when I was over there I really never saw too much hype for that match. Unless it was somehow related to Roman Reigns hate and "god it was so awesome to see Brock slap the shit out of him."

 

It's kind of a Roman Reigns hate circle jerk so no one is really going to go out of their way to praise one of his matches. Seems like 1 out of every 5 posts about WWE is some variation of a totally not tired or run into the ground joke about "gotta keep Roman strong"

[Grimmas]

The thing about the Sasha/Bayley matches is that I can't suspend my disbelief for them.

Why?

[Ricky Jackson]

 

They're women. They hug things out after fighting

It's what they did after the first match. Then they did the Dragonball storyline of the heel becoming good after losing to Goku/Bayley (both the post match and the build up to the second match seemed to indicate this) only for Sasha to turn again during the match and then turn back after the match. That's a lot closer to how TNA would book something than great narration.

I don't think any of the hugging was supposed to be part of the storyline. It's just another example of a shoot moment the WWE has no problem showing in 2015

[GOTNW]

 

 

They're women. They hug things out after fighting

It's what they did after the first match. Then they did the Dragonball storyline of the heel becoming good after losing to Goku/Bayley (both the post match and the build up to the second match seemed to indicate this) only for Sasha to turn again during the match and then turn back after the match. That's a lot closer to how TNA would book something than great narration.

I don't think any of the hugging was supposed to be part of the storyline. It's just another example of a shoot moment the WWE has no problem showing in 2015

 

 

The thing about the Sasha/Bayley matches is that I can't suspend my disbelief for them.

Why?

 

 

See if they bothered to make a distinction between what's the "storyline" and what's not I could accept it. But they don't. Is twitter a vehicle for them to run storylines or can wrestlers act like actors on it? Wrestling has treated the post-match as a part of its sphere forever (this includes NXT too) and now they want to treat it like threater? It's an inconsequentialism on their part.

[JerryvonKramer]

Self-aware post-modern wrestling can never be as good as the old school for this exact reason.

[Grimmas]

 

 

 

They're women. They hug things out after fighting

It's what they did after the first match. Then they did the Dragonball storyline of the heel becoming good after losing to Goku/Bayley (both the post match and the build up to the second match seemed to indicate this) only for Sasha to turn again during the match and then turn back after the match. That's a lot closer to how TNA would book something than great narration.

I don't think any of the hugging was supposed to be part of the storyline. It's just another example of a shoot moment the WWE has no problem showing in 2015

 

 

The thing about the Sasha/Bayley matches is that I can't suspend my disbelief for them.

Why?

 

 

See if they bothered to make a distinction between what's the "storyline" and what's not I could accept it. But they don't. Is twitter a vehicle for them to run storylines or can wrestlers act like actors on it? Wrestling has treated the post-match as a part of its sphere forever (this includes NXT too) and now they want to treat it like threater? It's an inconsequentialism on their part.

 

That happened after the match. During the match why coudln't you or did the post match retroactively ruin the match?

[Slasher]

It stands to reason that the postmatch ruined the match retroactively much like the Rollins cash in ruined the previous 10+ minutes of Lesnar vs Reigns for some.

[GOTNW]

I didn't think the matches themselves were that special honestly. In the case of the first match the post-match didn't ruin the experience for me but whereas a big match like that can use the post-match to significantly enhance my opinion of the match (Atlantis-La Sombra) there it just cemented it as being below my threshold for MOTYC matches. I'm not sure what more to add about the Ironman match really.

 

Self-aware post-modern wrestling can never be as good as the old school for this exact reason.

It's hardly an "old school" mentality. It's not an issue in New Japan or CMLL or Lucha Underground.

[Grimmas]

It stands to reason that the postmatch ruined the match retroactively much like the Rollins cash in ruined the previous 10+ minutes of Lesnar vs Reigns for some.

It can ruin the finish sure, but the whole match?

 

The problem is not it ruining the match, but saying I can't suspend disbelief for this match, due to the post match? What about the first time it was watched?

[Loss]

I guess the analogy would be having a great meal and finding out after that the chef spit in your food.

[JerryvonKramer]

I didn't think the matches themselves were that special honestly. In the case of the first match the post-match didn't ruin the experience for me but whereas a big match like that can use the post-match to significantly enhance my opinion of the match (Atlantis-La Sombra) there it just cemented it as being below my threshold for MOTYC matches. I'm not sure what more to add about the Ironman match really.

 

 

Self-aware post-modern wrestling can never be as good as the old school for this exact reason.

 

It's hardly an "old school" mentality. It's not an issue in New Japan or CMLL or Lucha Underground.

From the little I've seen of modern New Japan, I think it is definitely an issue there.

[Loss]

Clique hand signs, ponytails, cool heel stables with their own merchandise, outside interference in big matches and the camera pan they do for Okada -- current New Japan that I've seen feels an awful lot like early 2000s WWE.

[GOTNW]

Let's not forget the nWo had it's own branch in Japan as well. New Japan has stables ride in the same buses and no one ever really breaks character. I'm not a fan of the americanization of the product but it hasn't affected how they present kayfabe at all.

[JerryvonKramer]

For me it has that same video gamey quality that a lot of modern WWE has. I mean you are playing Final Fantasy or Tekken or whatever rather than an American game, but it still feels (and looks) like a game.

 

Ignore me though, I'm a known curmudgeon who hates the kids.

[Grimmas]

Modern video game type wrestling certainly exists, but it is not all current wrestling. There is lots of great old school feeling stuff out there, you just have to look for it.

 

That is why I hate when people say it's the new style and you just have to accept it.

[Timbo Slice]

I think the Bayley/Banks stuff is more amazing when you actually consider the environment it's in that they had those two matches that were that great and did what they did, all inclusively. The last time I remember any match that hit me on a level like that was the Shield/Wyatts EC match. Even Bryan winning the title at WM was a bit anticlimactic, yet they made it awesome with the HHH match and the way they booked the Triple Threat. Even if it was hokey.

 

There's tons of bullshit on a weekly basis nowadays that take away from what you watch, but the really good stuff truly shines through in spite of it. Both matches are that way, but Becky/Sasha is even moreso considering the setting.

[Slasher]

I disagree. I think it is easier to foster an atmosphere in which was necessary to do the Sasha/Bayley match in NXT than it would have been in WWE. Even though NXT is produced by WWE with better than average production values and bigger budget probably than the average indy promotion, it still has more of an intimate connection with the fans and has limited exposure compared to the main roster television shows. It is easier to build a longer term arc with one one hour show a week and building the level of drama that Sasha and Bayley achieved. It would have been something Sami Zayn and Cesaro probably would have achieved if given that much time or Sami Zayn and Neville or Sami Zayn and Kevin Owens. Which I guess speaks to how good Sami Zayn and Bayley are as character driven babyfaces when paired with compelling heels or foils.

[donsem43]

I think the Bayley/Banks stuff is more amazing when you actually consider the environment it's in that they had those two matches that were that great and did what they did, all inclusively.

 

NXT spent 2+ years building up their women's division to the point where two people who were no-names when it first started became not just the biggest stars of the division, but of the entire promotion. Even if the Iron Man match disappointed, the company would still be pushing it as an important moment. Compare that to Sasha vs. Becky on Main Event a couple of weeks ago. While Sasha gets "We want Sasha" chants and fans holding up 'Sasha Section' signs, she gets very little if any heat during her actual matches. It's really bizarre when you look at it, it like smart fans want to look cool chanting for her but honestly don't care when she's in ring. If Bayley and her had the Brooklyn match in front of that crowd and earned that kind of reaction then that would be one hell of an accomplishment.