Roman / Brock vs. Sasha / Bayley

[Jimmy Redman]

It's not misogynistic to comment on a woman's looks.

 

It IS kind of misogynistic to suggest that the reason, or a reason, that people like the match is because they want to bang one of the women involved. Especially since there are literally 7 pages of a thread you are currently posting in, in which numerous people outline what they liked about the match.

 

Is IS kind of misogynistic that you feel the need to go on an irrelevant tangent about having sex with half of a women's softball team (but not the ones that are lesbians lololol!), but that's a whole other kettle of beans.

 

It's misogynistic because if this was a match between two men that other people liked more than you, your first or best attempt to figure out why wouldn't be "is it because you all want to bang these dudes? Well not one guy, he looks like a homeless person, but I can see the appeal of the other guy with his boyish good looks and chiseled abs. That must be it."

[Matt D]

Here's where I am on this after seven pages:

 

I think that Brock vs Reigns was a remarkable accomplishment. They were able to get fans who wanted nothing more than to boo Reigns behind him by the end, to the point that when the ball was taken away from him, I think there was real momentum and if they had capitalized on it, we'd look at this entire year differently, that it could have been one of the great narratives in wrestling, the way to really build a star. That was solely on one Raw being cancelled due to weather and on the work of two wrestlers in one match, some blood, some fire, some grittiness, and a year of building up a wrestler as unstoppable. It's as much of a shame as anything in the WWE this year (and that's saying so much) that it didn't end up working out that way. Just a remarkable accomplishment of a match.

 

Sasha vs Bayley doesn't feel as remarkable. It doesn't feel as impressive at first glance. What it is, instead, is more iconic. It's good vs evil in 2015. It's a face vs a heel in an era where that seems quaint and passe. I'm not even sure what could compare to it, really, in years. Bryan vs the Authority was more Revenge of the Nerds than anything else,and that fits the times that we live in. And people bought into it so thoroughly. They believed. That, to me, is impressive too. A lot of it was carried upon the build, but the match was laid out to pay off that build, with Bayley standing up for herself, not just within the context of the feud but within the match itself. It played off her injury. It played into the finishers and her redemption road.

 

I think Brock vs Reigns was a miracle match and I'm higher on the finish than anyone here. I think Bayley vs Sasha was a match which was laid out to be exactly what it should be, a monolith to what wrestling can and should be when you marry story and action, when you set up a plan and execute it. It did what it was supposed to do. It did what it should have done. The plan was carried out. The people bought into it after all. Reigns vs Brock felt like it did the impossible, that it went against what should have been doable. I was in that Rumble crowd two months before.

 

Brock vs Reigns was more impressive, but Bayley vs Sasha was wrestling done right. It's not remarkable because they're women. It's remarkable because it wasn't wildly post-modern, because it was so simple and straightforward and primal. Reigns vs Lesnar was everything wrestling could be. Sasha vs Bayley was everything wrestling should be.

[Ricky Jackson]

Great post Matt

 

Horrible, horrible post rvd356

[Russellmania]

Is it mysoginistic to comment on their looks now damn. I'm sure that they are super serious athletes and I'll show them proper respect from now on Jimmy.

 

EDIT: I'm sorry that sounded pretty dickish. I honestly have not watched a women's match since like Sable-Trish 2003 untill this one and I understand they aren't doing the Bra and Panties type stuff anymore. I will give them credit on their craft improving but not at the level of of Lesnar.

saying "I don't like women's wrestling" has always struck me as so dumb because it's not like it's a different style of wrestling (in modern WWE anyway). It's just wrestling where they happen to be women. Some of the matches suck and some are good, just like the men.

 

I don't see where personal preference comes in. It's not like we're comparing WWE style to FMW Deathmatch style or something. That's why people are calling you mysogynistic. You are saying right out of the gate that you consider Bayley/Sasha less valid than a men's match purely because they are women.

[andrew79]

When I watched Lesnar/Reigns I saw a sports entertainment main event, and one brought down a notch by Lesnar's ridiculously safe-looking suplexes.

 

When I watched Banks/Bayley I saw a professional wrestling match, and a pretty damn good one at that.

[C.S.]

saying "I don't like women's wrestling" has always struck me as so dumb because it's not like it's a different style of wrestling (in modern WWE anyway).

 

Except, it was absolutely different in the WWE as of a year or two ago. At one point, the women were told not to hit as hard as the men, etc.

[Grimmas]

 

saying "I don't like women's wrestling" has always struck me as so dumb because it's not like it's a different style of wrestling (in modern WWE anyway).

 

Except, it was absolutely different in the WWE as of a year or two ago. At one point, the women were told not to hit as hard as the men, etc.

 

Saying I don't like WWE divas wrestling during that time is one thing. Saying I don't like women's wrestling in general is just weird.

[Slasher]

I was typing a long response after Johnny Sorrow's post about how asking rvd why he didn't like women's wrestling wasn't necessarily an implicit accusation of misogyny but I was afraid it would descend into a misogynistic thing and boy am I glad I stayed out of that one LOL

[Slasher]

The thing is-and this is a legitimate question, how many people who are NBA fans are also WNBA fans? What about MLB vs the various women's softball unions? It really seems to me that the only entity that really works is women's soccer and maybe UFC when Rousey is the centerpiece. I mean, is it really so weird if people have a tougher time embracing women in sports? Especially on a mainstream level? You can call the society misogynistic I guess if you want to, but that is the way the world spins unfortunately. The matriarchs may dominate on a small scale, like women in families, businesses, etc but it has always been patriarchal on a societal level.

[funkdoc]

the idea is that women are an untapped audience, and i think stuff like the US women's soccer team and NXT are bearing that out. to look at another world with a very similar fanbase to wrestling, check out your superhero comic books these days - you have things like a female thor (whose comic outsells the original's, IIRC) and catwoman coming out as bisexual. focusing on minority audiences has helped spark a mini-revival there, something i'd compare to modern NJPW if you really need a wrestling analogy. i think that's the future for a lot of the pop culture that hasn't already gotten there, and i include wrestling in that statement. sasha-bayley will be canonized if that happens, i'd bet.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Women's tennis is pretty much on equal footing with men's. I mean, I've heard just as often that people don't like watching the men as people don't like watching the women. Usually they're just taken as a combo. Serena and Sharapova are probably both in the top 5 most popular/well-known tennis stars.

[Russellmania]

 

 

saying "I don't like women's wrestling" has always struck me as so dumb because it's not like it's a different style of wrestling (in modern WWE anyway).

 

Except, it was absolutely different in the WWE as of a year or two ago. At one point, the women were told not to hit as hard as the men, etc.

 

Saying I don't like WWE divas wrestling during that time is one thing. Saying I don't like women's wrestling in general is just weird.

 

yes, that's my point. This rvd guy is saying he doesn't like Sasha/Bayley purely b/c they are women. This is by all accounts one of the very best matches of the year and this guy is panning it solely because of gender. It's absurd.

[Russellmania]

The thing is-and this is a legitimate question, how many people who are NBA fans are also WNBA fans? What about MLB vs the various women's softball unions? It really seems to me that the only entity that really works is women's soccer and maybe UFC when Rousey is the centerpiece. I mean, is it really so weird if people have a tougher time embracing women in sports? Especially on a mainstream level? You can call the society misogynistic I guess if you want to, but that is the way the world spins unfortunately. The matriarchs may dominate on a small scale, like women in families, businesses, etc but it has always been patriarchal on a societal level.

the thing is, none of that has anything to do intrinsically with gender. people don't like the WNBA because it's an inferior league, not because it's full of women. Some sports have been developing female athletes for decades and so the quality of the games is on or nearly on par with the men (soccer), but other sports haven't done as good a job of that (basketball). But it's not that women are inherently worse at a given sport, just that the development of the athletes might favor one gender over the other historically.

 

So I can understand looking at wrestling and saying that historically women's wrestling in North America has been inferior to men's wrestling due to lack of talent and development, but this guy has people telling him right now that there are at least a handful of female workers and matches in the US that are absolutely as good as the men if not better. To willfully dismiss them simply on the basis of being women at this point is bullshit.

[Loss]

Someone at some point should look back on stuff like the JBAs-Glamour Girls feud, Sherri Martel's matches, Wendi Richter, Alundra Blayze, Bambi, Debbie Combs, etc. and ponder if what we're seeing now is truly an unprecedented level of quality in the U.S. for women's wrestling, or if it's just that they are getting more promotional and booking focus now. I suspect it's a little of both, but I also suspect the women who did work in the past weren't as bad as we might think. Leilani Kai was pretty well-regarded in her day (both for her U.S. and Japan work), so I think a side-by-side comparison to Sasha Banks would be very interesting.

[Timbo Slice]

Judy Martin could go, and looking back at some AJW Classics, it was apparent that there was good women's wrestling from Americans back then. Sherri Martel had good stuff in AWA, too.

 

It is a little bit of both, but Sasha really is turning out to be an outlier. The other women can work with her and she's the one who can really dictate things in a way that nobody else can out of that group. Bayley isn't as natural as Sasha is in the ring, but she's up there in putting things together.

[Childs]

 

The thing is-and this is a legitimate question, how many people who are NBA fans are also WNBA fans? What about MLB vs the various women's softball unions? It really seems to me that the only entity that really works is women's soccer and maybe UFC when Rousey is the centerpiece. I mean, is it really so weird if people have a tougher time embracing women in sports? Especially on a mainstream level? You can call the society misogynistic I guess if you want to, but that is the way the world spins unfortunately. The matriarchs may dominate on a small scale, like women in families, businesses, etc but it has always been patriarchal on a societal level.

the thing is, none of that has anything to do intrinsically with gender. people don't like the WNBA because it's an inferior league, not because it's full of women. Some sports have been developing female athletes for decades and so the quality of the games is on or nearly on par with the men (soccer), but other sports haven't done as good a job of that (basketball). But it's not that women are inherently worse at a given sport, just that the development of the athletes might favor one gender over the other historically.

 

So I can understand looking at wrestling and saying that historically women's wrestling in North America has been inferior to men's wrestling due to lack of talent and development, but this guy has people telling him right now that there are at least a handful of female workers and matches in the US that are absolutely as good as the men if not better. To willfully dismiss them simply on the basis of being women at this point is bullshit.

 

 

I don't think you're right about the basketball issue. It's a sport that really highlights the physical advantages inherent to men. Specifically, men play above the rim and women do not. Female players are fantastically skilled, but the differences between them and their male counterparts are so obvious to the naked eye that a lot of people can't get past them. And I say that as someone who enjoys covering women's college hoops.

 

The issue isn't nearly as clear in wrestling. But the most athletic male workers are clearly stronger, quicker and springier than the best female workers. So if you particularly value those traits, I could see why the women might suffer in the comparison. There is no female Brock, for example.

[Grimmas]

Someone at some point should look back on stuff like the JBAs-Glamour Girls feud, Sherri Martel's matches, Wendi Richter, Alundra Blayze, Bambi, Debbie Combs, etc. and ponder if what we're seeing now is truly an unprecedented level of quality in the U.S. for women's wrestling, or if it's just that they are getting more promotional and booking focus now. I suspect it's a little of both, but I also suspect the women who did work in the past weren't as bad as we might think. Leilani Kai was pretty well-regarded in her day (both for her U.S. and Japan work), so I think a side-by-side comparison to Sasha Banks would be very interesting.

I loved that tag feud last time I saw it and made a playlist this summer to re-watch it, but never got to it.

[Dylan Waco]

Are we sure rvd wasn't just saying that he really wants to fuck Brock or Roman or both?

[The Man in Blak]

[andrew79]

[Slasher]

Thanks Yo Yo, I forgot about tennis. Certainly people like Serena, Sharapova, Evert, Graf, Hingis and Navrilotova (wrong spelling Im sure) plus girls like Monica Seles are/were as big if not bigger stars than their male counterparts.

 

As for WNBA, clearly there is less of pure athleticism that NBA players possesses, but true basketball fans should have been all over WNBA at some point (not sure what the state of the league is now) in the past simply because women seem to work better in teams and have less of the ego to sabotage their teams' schemes and goals so they can get their numbers like plenty of male players do. Part of it is the underexposure making it difficult to build true mainstream stars. Their legends are still people that have gone relatively unnoticed by media and public for whatever reasons. The biggest story in basketball in recent history was Becky Hammon becoming an assistant coach for the NBA's Spurs. It was a big deal primarily because it was a woman crossing over and possessed a lot of the "unknown quality" factor/appeal. If it was a guy that retired like Kidd or Fisher, people just shrug because they know who they are and the transition from player to coach is easier. Anyways all I am saying is WNBA is not popular and I don't think that it is for any real good reason besides it being less established compared to NBA. But it doesn't get attention because there is still that deep seated feeling among more than not people who just don't care about women and what they have to offer.

 

As for Sasha and Bayley as individual components, Sasha is just a rock star. She knows how to get her presence felt in the ring and in her segments. She has a very good understanding of translating her character work into her wrestling and vice versa. Bayley is more of a pure character type worker. She's not really that special in the ring. She is above average, sure, but compared to men, she's not that special. Where she succeeds is understanding how to make connections with the people she performs in front of with her character work. But to be honest, she is also rather boring of a character if you come down right to it. She has kinda an one dimensional note to the character. I don't think she can play heel without introducing unseen before elements in her character. She can't really be a dominant type babyface either. It isn't like Daniel Bryan who had been able to convert all that experience he has had and the global reputation he had developed to be a compelling offensive wrestlers who can work from the top as well as being the underdog whenever his storyline calls for it. And this is generally the underdog gimmick that he works so it is impressive how he doesn't look out of place destroying Triple H at ringside as he does being a guy who works stacked odds against him. Bayley doesn't have that ability. She can really only be a plunky fighting champion with known vulnerability. A true blue underdog, that's it. Sasha/Bayley is something where you had fresh ingredients and you could make magic happen in the ring, but it isn't really an indication of Bayley's skills or even Sasha's.

 

That said, I do agree with the idea that dismissing the match out of hand without having really any idea of why it is so acclaimed-solely on the basis that its women wrestling is rather stupid, BUT I mean, no one really gave anybody a real chance to build goodwill with a women's division. It was treated like a joke for years and years. Even the fact that WWE pushes Trish Stratus and Lita as some kind of legendary (in scale to the division) retired workers while most people can only muster a "Ehhh for women they were okay I guess" sentiment, doesn't help anybody, least of all Sasha Banks and Bayley. Maybe in 5 years we can look back and say "Well the division is really good and a strong point of the shows, and we can thank the pioneers of that movement, Sasha and Bayley" but that's quite a leap of faith to believe that as an eventuality if you ask me. Gail Kim and Awesome Kong were producing really good stuff at some point for TNA, but where is that division now? (This ignores the fact TNA screwed themselves up in general, because the knockouts were kinda regressing before TNA really started to bottom out)

[Benbeeach]

Missed the initial discussion wave, but I voted Sasha/Bayley. It touched me in ways that no other match this year has. In a way not a whole lot of matches have period. It's the only match I've heard parts of the internet speak of with "moved to tears" as legitimate praise. From pre match hype videos to the post match, it was nearly flawless. There are a lot of qualifiers you can put on it, history, context, relativity, and so on that add, or will add to the match's lore, rightly or wrongly (and I don't think matches exist in a vacuum so it all counts to me) but what happened from bell to bell is undeniably good, and definitely a MOTYC

I think Brock and Reigns was special in its own way, and certainly very good, and was on its way to accomplishing some really great things, but it isn't the total package Sasha Bayley was. It also isn't the best match in Mania history. (I think I'd comfortably put Bret/Austin above it, and maybe some lesser spoken of matches) But it's on the short list definitely.

[donsem43]

Someone at some point should look back on stuff like the JBAs-Glamour Girls feud, Sherri Martel's matches, Wendi Richter, Alundra Blayze, Bambi, Debbie Combs, etc. and ponder if what we're seeing now is truly an unprecedented level of quality in the U.S. for women's wrestling, or if it's just that they are getting more promotional and booking focus now. I suspect it's a little of both, but I also suspect the women who did work in the past weren't as bad as we might think. Leilani Kai was pretty well-regarded in her day (both for her U.S. and Japan work), so I think a side-by-side comparison to Sasha Banks would be very interesting.

 

I'm thinking about doing something like this for U.S. indy women too. Just how much of a gap (if there even is one) is there between Sasha and the likes of Sara Del Ray, Cheerleader Melissa, MsChif, Serena Deeb, Madison Eagles, Mercedes Martinez, etc? Is Sasha just getting hyped due to more exposure?

[Benbeeach]

 

Someone at some point should look back on stuff like the JBAs-Glamour Girls feud, Sherri Martel's matches, Wendi Richter, Alundra Blayze, Bambi, Debbie Combs, etc. and ponder if what we're seeing now is truly an unprecedented level of quality in the U.S. for women's wrestling, or if it's just that they are getting more promotional and booking focus now. I suspect it's a little of both, but I also suspect the women who did work in the past weren't as bad as we might think. Leilani Kai was pretty well-regarded in her day (both for her U.S. and Japan work), so I think a side-by-side comparison to Sasha Banks would be very interesting.

 

I'm thinking about doing something like this for U.S. indy women too. Just how much of a gap (if there even is one) is there between Sasha and the likes of Sara Del Ray, Cheerleader Melissa, MsChif, Serena Deeb, Madison Eagles, Mercedes Martinez, etc? Is Sasha just getting hyped due to more exposure?

 

...yes

 

But she isn't undeserving by any means. But I mean yeah, more people probably saw her Takeover matches than have ever watched Shimmer in its entirety, ever. Life

[Alucard]

 

Someone at some point should look back on stuff like the JBAs-Glamour Girls feud, Sherri Martel's matches, Wendi Richter, Alundra Blayze, Bambi, Debbie Combs, etc. and ponder if what we're seeing now is truly an unprecedented level of quality in the U.S. for women's wrestling, or if it's just that they are getting more promotional and booking focus now. I suspect it's a little of both, but I also suspect the women who did work in the past weren't as bad as we might think. Leilani Kai was pretty well-regarded in her day (both for her U.S. and Japan work), so I think a side-by-side comparison to Sasha Banks would be very interesting.

 

I'm thinking about doing something like this for U.S. indy women too. Just how much of a gap (if there even is one) is there between Sasha and the likes of Sara Del Ray, Cheerleader Melissa, MsChif, Serena Deeb, Madison Eagles, Mercedes Martinez, etc? Is Sasha just getting hyped due to more exposure?

 

 

I think Sasha ranks right up there with Eagles and Deeb as complete packages, in-ring wrestling, promo, character work, etc. Excellent all the way around.