JvK's Six-Factor Model for GWE rankings [BIGLAV]

[JerryvonKramer]

He gets a +1 for being ace / champ.

 

BUT ALSO

 

Arguably gets all the benefits that go along with that, namely: opportunities to have great matches (see Great Matches: 10), and opportunities to have memorable matches against a variety of different opponents (see Variety: 10).

 

You will notice that almost every WWF champ gets a boost to their variety rating simply because they got those chances. With Bob Backlund, it's basically his entire case.

 

So Misawa does get recognition for the career he had.

 

Brian Pillman does not get the +1 for being champ / ace, AND he never had those same opportunities. So I don't think things are stacked against Misawa here.

 

Pillman can claw 1 point back through +1 over in multiple markets (Stampede, WCW, ECW, WWF). He's not getting a +1 just for WCW, but for the fact he was over in four distinct promotions.

 

He also gets a +1 for ability to work heel, which is something else he has over Misawa. And another +1 for ability to work gimmick matches, which is seemingly something every American worker has over every Japanese worker.

[Loss]

If Pillman in multiple markets is being argued in his favor, I think it's worth noting that he did not have any matches in ECW, and while he was over fine as an Austin foil in 1997, that had nothing to do with his work. That's what I mean. It's definitely not as impressive a run as Misawa had in All Japan. I get and agree with your larger point about how many of the built-in advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out.

[JerryvonKramer]

I will say too that the A [Ability to work different roles] rating is purposefully designed to punish guys who were limited or specialist in what they could do, because I specifically think the GWE should be able to "do it all". And currently, this is where Funk and Flair and pulling ahead of the Japanese contenders.

 

Don't forget that BIGLAV is custom-made to reward the things I look for specifically in the top GWE guy. Ricky Morton won't do well in the A rating, and I do believe that it is a knock on him that he could only really do one thing.

[elliott]

UGGGH. There is way too much stuff in here I wanted to respond to and I accidentally hit the back button and lost a huge post. And there were a few new posts since I started that huge post. Damn!

 

My basic points....

 

Wrestlers/fans of the territory era often talk about how great it was that the territories existed because they made it easier to stay over. Once you wore out your welcome with the fans or promoters and weren't over anymore, you could go to the next market and start fresh. There's some chicken/egg potential there, but it is definitely worth thinking about.

 

So following the logic that the territory system made it easier for wrestlers to stay fresh and stay over for years because they could leave when they started to get stale, Lawler sticking around Memphis forever and becoming God is really fucking hard and actually MUCH harder than traveling around. So hard that no one else really did it at the level Lawler did. So therefore Lawler +10 for not traveling around. Look at it another way. Lawler and Buddy Rose GOT to stay home. Those other dudes HAD to travel chasing the next big push because they weren't good enough/smart enough to figure out how to make a 5 year run work let alone a 40year run.

 

I also agree with all the points about Tenryu's ability to get over in different places being reflected by WAR & SWS. But I also agree with Parv's desire to give him a +1 for that because he deserves some extra points for something kinda like that I'm just not sure how to phrase it concisely. So I'll phrase it in an overly wordy fashion

 

Basically I view Tenryu as the Japanese version of Ric Flair. If you were a relevant native wrestler in Japan in the last 40 years, chances are you had a match with some point with Tenryu. Including tags:

Baba, Inoki, Rusher Kimura, Jumbo, Fujinami, Choshu, Takada, Onita, Hashimoto, Muto, Chono, Hase, Koshinaka, Yatsu, Saito, Fujiwara, Yamazaki, Sasaki, Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Taue, Akiyama, Takayama, Morishima, Tanahashi, Okada, Shiozaki etc

 

If you want to add in Gaijin:

Hansen, Terry Gordy, Funks, Flair, Hogan, Abdullah, Brody, The Road Warriors, British Bulldogs, Harley Race, Nick Bockwinkel, Ted Dibiase, Dick Murdoch, Mil Mascaras, THe Sheik, Ricky Steamboat, etc.

 

So everyone important. except for Rikidozan, Maeda, Tamura and Volk Han. ANd FUCK do I want to watch Tenryu vs Maeda, Tamura & Han. And I actually don't remember a Vader match and surely I would remember a Tenryu/Vader match. For everyone I named there are a bunch of midcarders I didn't name too. Here are. 5 more real quick LIger, Aoyagi, Ishikawa, Hara, Tarzan Goto. I just realized I forgot about Dragon Gate and the Gran Hamada/Sasuke/ULtimo Dragon lucharesu type feds, but fuck that shit other than 90s Mpro anyway

 

I feel like Tenryu is the Central Link (for lack of a better phrase) to all of Japanese Wrestling. For example, you could tell Jumbo Tsuruta's story without mentioning Shoot Style, Garbage Style, Japanese "Independent" Wrestling, etc. To tell the full Tenryu story, you have to (get to!) hit everything from Baba/Inoki to Jumbo Fujinami Choshu to Hash and Misawa to Onita and Takada etc etc.

 

You could say a lot of these things about Flair with only the names being different. If you were a relevant star in 80s US/Japanese wrestling, and didn't have a match with Ric Flair at any point you probably weren't actually all that relevant a star. There are some obvious differences between the two but I started thinking about Tenryu as the Japanese Flair recently when it occurred to me that Tenryu had wrestled pretty much everyone but Rikidozan and Maeda and had footage of him against all of those people and how bonkers/awesome that is. Obviously it is on a smaller scale because Flair traveled the world and Tenryu was "traveling" to his 10,000th show in Tokyo when Tenryu "invaded" New Japan.

 

So basically, while I think giving Tenryu a +1 for getting over in multiple places and listing WAR/SWS is questionable, I do encourage the urge to give Tenryu extra points.

 

+1 for just being Tenryu

+1 for running a promotion called "Wrestle and Romance"

+1 for calling that promotion "WAR"

 

These are all acceptable options for giving Tenryu extra points.

 

Also one last little note about All Japan Budokan sellouts run, I recall reading in either the Misawa or Kobashi WON bios that All Japan actually sold out every single show they ran in Tokyo during the stretch they sold out all the budokan shows. It wasn't just the major shows that were selling out. It was every show in Tokyo. Thats pretty awesome if its true.

[ohtani's jacket]

Don't you think it's kind of disappointing that they never call WAR "war" on commentary? Meanwhile, the Pallos refer to their promotion WAW as "war" because of the way we pronounce the "aw" sound in British English.

 

How's that for some sidetracking?

[JerryvonKramer]

Enjoyed your post Elliott.

 

Lawler won't get +10 for not travelling, he'll get +1 for carrying a promotion and then probably 10 points in variety which reflects the fact he had memorable matches with lots of different people. Variety is the advantage category for the homesteading aces. Look at Backlund.

[JerryvonKramer]

For fun:

 

Vince McMahon

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 1/3 3/3 = 4

Intangibles 8

Great matches 1

Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work babyface

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

 

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 2

 

1. Austin, 2. Triple H, 3. Shane, 4. Stephanie, 5. Shawn Michaels, 6. Ric Flair

 

 

Variety = 6 opponents = 3

 

18

 

Jim Cornette

 

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 1/3 3/3 = 4

Intangibles 8

Great matches 0

Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work babyface

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

 

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 2

 

1. Paul Heyman, 2. Cowabunga

 

 

Variety = 2 opponents = 1

 

15

[JerryvonKramer]

Abdullah the Butcher

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 2/3 = 4

Intangibles 7

Great matches 2

Length of Peak [never one of best in the world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work babyface

+1 ability to work tags

+3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Japan, Australia)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 5

 

1. The Sheik, 2. Dory Funk Jr, 3. Terry Funk, 4. Brusier Brody, 5. Giant Baba, 6. Jumbo Tsuruta, 7. Mil Mascaras / Dos Caras, 8. Dick Slater, 9. Billy Robinson, 10. Harley Race, 11. Antonio Inoki, 12. Hulk Hogan, 13. Tatsumi Fujinami, 14. Carlos Colon, 15. Wahoo McDaniel, 16. Cacus Jack, 17. Sabu, 18. Mark Lewin, 19. Manny Fernandez, 20. Dusty Rhodes

 

Variety = 20 opponents = 10

 

28

 

Adrian Adonis

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 = 8

Intangibles 3

Great matches 2

Length of Peak 1979-85 = 6 years = 4

 

+1 ability to work babyface

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to work brawls

+1 ability to work different gimmicks ("The Adorable One")

+2 ability to get over in multiple markets (PNW, WWF, AWA, Japan)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 7

 

1. Buddy Rose, 2. Bob Backlund, 3. The High Flyers, 4. Hulk Hogan, 5. Anotnio Inoki, 6. Tatsumi Fujinami, 7. Yoshiaki Yatsu, 8. Dick Murdoch, 9. Jack and Jerry Brisco, 10. Andre, 11. Bob Orton Jr, 12. Roddy Piper, 13. Paul Orndorff, 14. Tito Santana

 

Variety = 14 opponents = 7

 

31

[soup23]

Im still really struggling with the bonus points. It is an easy example to point to but it does strike me odd to give someone like Abby more bonus points than Misawa.

[El McKell]

It's not bonus points, it's points for different roles and styles which isn't something Misawa is gonna excel in, or Abby when I think about it but Parv's gotta give him the points for being the kinda character that had to move from territory to territory to continue to be a draw.

[JerryvonKramer]

You'll notice that Abby didn't get any bonus points for being able to work gimmick matches (or technically, or "normal" matches).

 

He was a big star with a long career who worked in many many different places and was over in all of them. His score reflects that.

 

Also, Abby's act was always the same, but he seemed to get over everywhere with it, and so ... That means it is universal in a way that Misawa specifically isn't. Like people struggle to "get" Misawa sometimes, we've seen that. Abby gave Japanese kids nightmares just like he gave little Will from Texas nightmares.

 

I give credit where it is due.

[ohtani's jacket]

Freddie Blassie gave Japanese men heart attacks. Do you have any imperial evidence that Abdullah gave kjds nightmares, Parv? Hmmmm??

[JerryvonKramer]

Only their screams of terror in three dozen juice brawls.

[soup23]

You'll notice that Abby didn't get any bonus points for being able to work gimmick matches (or technically, or "normal" matches).

 

He was a big star with a long career who worked in many many different places and was over in all of them. His score reflects that.

 

Also, Abby's act was always the same, but he seemed to get over everywhere with it, and so ... That means it is universal in a way that Misawa specifically isn't. Like people struggle to "get" Misawa sometimes, we've seen that. Abby gave Japanese kids nightmares just like he gave little Will from Texas nightmares.

 

I give credit where it is due.

 

I call bullshit on the "get" of Misawa. Just because a few people on this message board don't connect with Misawa as much as other individuals, that doesn't mean he wasn't an icon in numerous cultures especially in Japan. Misawa was universally a bigger star in Japan than Abby was anywhere. I get Misawa in the way Will had nightmares about Abby. Contrarily, I thought Abby was a sloppy, fat black man when I saw him as a kid in 1991. Misawa got the legend reaction you would expect at his ROH appearances.

 

I just think you could give a +1 for Misawa to deliver in championship matches that Abby wouldn't have but yet we just are throwing a +2 on Abby because he was nomadic. It feels like the most strongman of your arguments and a detriment to Kobashi, Misawa, and Taue more than anyone else as they will only have AJ and NOAH to cling to.

[JerryvonKramer]

The level of stardom isn't being rewarded, all that is being rewarded is the ability to get over in different places.

I mean let's get down to it: who is really affected by this when it comes to the Misawas / Kobashis? Abby is so far below both that he's not the fairest comparison.

Here are the guys currently above Misawa according to BIGLAV:

Nick Bockwinkel
Jumbo Tsuruta
Genchiro Tenryu
Stan Hansen
Terry Funk
Ric Flair

They are all close in the 6 ratings, generally scoring 7-10 in each one, apart from in the A category. There, Funk, Flair, Hansen, and Bockwinkel have an advantage over their Japanese counterparts.

Look at the rating category again:

"Ability to work different styles / roles"

I've been as generous as I possibly could be to Misawa. I mean, he gets a whole TWO points just for his Tiger Mask run:

+1 ability to work as junior
+1 ability to work a different gimmick (Tiger Mask II)
+1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace
+1 ability to work tags

 

People like Funk, Flair and Bock worked a lot more different types of matches than Misawa was asked to in his career. They worked all sorts of gimmick matches (+1), they worked both face and heel (+1), and they worked in many more markets and got over in them (+3) AND they worked tags, worked as champions / aces and so on.

 

You could say: "yeah, but that's not fair! Flair and Funk were NWA champions and Bock was the AWA champion, OF COURSE they travelled and got over!"

 

And I say: "yeah, it was them and not anyone else, and they should get additional credit for it"

 

If you want to know the origin of the A category, it was actually the Wrestling Culture on Flair vs. Funk vs. Lawler where Dylan built the case for Funk essentially on points in the A category.

 

I think Chad is more the sort of guy who'd build the case from the G category, and the the main issue he has is that he doesn't see the A category as being equally important.

 

I see all six categories as being roughly of equal importance with the privoso that B is the first tie-breaker and G is the second tie-breaker.

[soup23]

G.B.V.A.I would be my ratings for most important to least important in my eyes with a good size gap between G and B and the rest.

[elliott]

Also, Abby's act was always the same, but he seemed to get over everywhere with it, and so ... That means it is universal in a way that Misawa specifically isn't.

 

So the category is "Ability to work different styles & roles" where Abby scored +5 overall.

+3 of which is "Ability to get over in multiple markets."

 

And yet there you are saying that Abby's act is always the same. So what you're really doing is giving him:

Ability to pass through customs and board a plane +3

 

So I also declare shenanigans.

[elliott]

I've been as generous as I possibly could be to Misawa. I mean, he gets a whole TWO points just for his Tiger Mask run:

 

+1 ability to work as junior

+1 ability to work a different gimmick (Tiger Mask II)

+1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace

+1 ability to work tags

 

Don't be as "generous as possible." Just be realistic.

 

Was Misawa as a junior even one of the 50 best juniors ever? If no, does he really deserve a +1.

Misawa "worked" the Tiger Mask II gimmick, but he wasn't nearly as successful or over as Sayama and I've never seen Misawa's run as Tiger Mask ever described as anything other than disappointment. Is anyone voting for Misawa as #1 putting a ton of weight into his Tiger Mask run?

Misawa wasn't just the ace of a promotion. He is often cited by hardcore fans as the "Best" ace and his "promotion" is often pointed to as the absolute pinnacle of in ring work. And Misawa's time as the Ace is specifically pointed to as the absolute PEAK of the "best in ring promotion" of all time.

 

It seems like that last point should mean more than his ability to put on a mask or his time as the 75th best junior heavyweight.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Guys arguing with Parv about his verkakte "system" is fucking hilarious.

[elliott]

Guys arguing with Parv about his verkakte "system" is fucking hilarious.

It's a blast! Two thumbs up!

[JerryvonKramer]

 

I've been as generous as I possibly could be to Misawa. I mean, he gets a whole TWO points just for his Tiger Mask run:+1 ability to work as junior+1 ability to work a different gimmick (Tiger Mask II)

+1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace

+1 ability to work tags

 

Don't be as "generous as possible." Just be realistic.

 

Was Misawa as a junior even one of the 50 best juniors ever? If no, does he really deserve a +1.

Misawa "worked" the Tiger Mask II gimmick, but he wasn't nearly as successful or over as Sayama and I've never seen Misawa's run as Tiger Mask ever described as anything other than disappointment. Is anyone voting for Misawa as #1 putting a ton of weight into his Tiger Mask run?

Misawa wasn't just the ace of a promotion. He is often cited by hardcore fans as the "Best" ace and his "promotion" is often pointed to as the absolute pinnacle of in ring work. And Misawa's time as the Ace is specifically pointed to as the absolute PEAK of the "best in ring promotion" of all time.

 

It seems like that last point should mean more than his ability to put on a mask or his time as the 75th best junior heavyweight.

The Tiger Mask run and his ability to work as a junior are feathers in his cap and I'm giving him credit for them. See Chad's recent thread on this very topic: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/33392-the-burning-question/

 

They are not central to his case but just one itty party of it which translates as about 2/60 or if you want 3.333333% of his entire case.

 

There are no shenanigans about the multiple markets. It's in the A category because it -- theoretically -- shows adaptability to get over in different places. It's not just a case of geography but of different styles of promotion, booking philosophies and crowds. It takes one thing to get over in the old Vince Sr WWF and at MSG, another thing entirely to get over in a work heavy promotion like Crockett, another thing again in Memphis, another thing again in Midsouth, another thing again in Giant Baba's promotion with its sometimes stony faced fans or in Inoki's promotion where the crowds are used to seeing more technical matches. The +3 isn't just arbitrary, it is meant to be saying something about the worker's ability to connect with some very different sets of fans. Of course, Abby didn't really do a lot to change from place to place, but then maybe his act is "universal", in which case all credit to him. He had that act and he got over all those places, Terry Taylor didn't. It's not like I have some insane desire to rank Abby highly. I just give credit where it is due.

 

Just a couple more weeks now ...

[elliott]

I'll have more to say after work tomorrow but I wanted to mention this because I forgot it once already. I think Misawa deserves a 10 for intangibles. He was definitely charismatic. You don't become the most popular wrestler in a country of 120million+ without charisma.

[ohtani's jacket]

Was Misawa ever the most popular wrestler in Japan? And let's not pretend that a large percentage of that 120 million cared about wrestling. That only happened in the 50s & 60s.

[JerryvonKramer]

Just two words for consideration here: Bob Backlund.

 

He was very over for most of his run, and I can honestly say the guy deserves the Intangibles rating I gave him of 1. And I've seen him get a standing ovation at MSG.

 

Dory Funk Jr was very over in many different places, including Japan. And he was one of the highest drawing NWA champions. He has an intangibles rating of ... 0.

 

No one argued with either of those ratings. And no one who has watched the footage would argue that either guy was over.

 

So, I don't necessarily buy that popularity = charisma / intangibles.

 

Obviously, I think Misawa's intangibles rating of 6 is fair. And I'm also going to give Kobashi a higher score for it, for the reasons I've mentioned in that thread.

[ohtani's jacket]

The problem that so many/few of us are having with intangibles is that you presented it as something quantifiable. What that means to most/a few of us is that you're going to step outside of your biases and objectively rank guys. But it doesn't seem that you've done that. How you can rank Backlund, Dory and Misawa so low is bafflingly. If the maximum score for those categories is 10 then you've lowballed all of them. Maybe you thought you were doing it for the sake of objectivity, but I can only believe that with the Dory score.