Childs Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 @ DR Ackerman: I was just wondering about the phrase "output" because for raw great matches etc., I'm not sure if Misawa has an equal and probably has more ****1/2+ to his name than even Jumbo or Flair. On my own scale, he's a perfect 10 for great matches, but gets hurt in variety and longevity stakes. I hadn't really seen anyone put forward a case that Misawa has less output than the other two. It's usually more that people don't get his character work and find it easier to connect with Kawada / Kobashi. So the output thing interested me. I'm in the camp that does see Kawada's Footloose run as a plus for him, but I've been a bit disappointed with his post-peak work. He was the worst of Hase's opponents when I saw him run the AJ gauntlet a month ago and have seen Kawada dog it far too many times. I also feel like Jumbo's "boring" period from 81-84 is generally held against him far more than down periods for other guys, while his 70s work isn't taken into account as much and generally phenomenal 85-92 a little lightly dismissed. Parv, I don't mean this in an insulting way because you're still working your way through. But you have a more complete understanding of Jumbo's career than you do for the '90s guys. So I'm not sure the comparisons you're making are really one for one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 I'll agree that my viewing of those guys is far from comprehensive, but whenever I have watched random matches from them "off piece" as it were, outside of the classics, Kawada has disappointed me more often than the other two. I could count examples on at least two hands, which in my mind is quite a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microstatistics Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 but whenever I have watched random matches from them "off piece" as it were, outside of the classics, Kawada has disappointed me more often than the other two. I thought I was the only one. Kawada seems to be the most accessible of the four for people. Even people who don't enjoy the style like him a lot. His peak is amazing but that is the only phase of his career I personally am fond of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 I also feel like Jumbo's "boring" period from 81-84 is generally held against him far more than down periods for other guys, while his 70s work isn't taken into account as much and generally phenomenal 85-92 a little lightly dismissed. 1985-1992 doesn't really feel like a complete run for Jumbo since he is a completely different wrestler in 1985 than he is in 1992. I don't have time to back it up with a bunch of reviews and a huge list right now but I'm pretty sure Jumbo took a big leap in 1988 and would have 1989-1992 as his true "peak". It's almost ridiculous how little presence he has in the Choshu tags compared to the Misawa feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 I also feel like Jumbo's "boring" period from 81-84 is generally held against him far more than down periods for other guys, while his 70s work isn't taken into account as much and generally phenomenal 85-92 a little lightly dismissed.1985-1992 doesn't really feel like a complete run for Jumbo since he is a completely different wrestler in 1985 than he is in 1992. I don't have time to back it up with a bunch of reviews and a huge list right now but I'm pretty sure Jumbo took a big leap in 1988 and would have 1989-1992 as his true "peak". It's almost ridiculous how little presence he has in the Choshu tags compared to the Misawa feud. This is actually not a fair criticism, in my view, because All Japan aces always seem to take the back seat in tags. Misawa has little presence in many of the famous 90s tags I've watched and very often his partner, whether it is Kawada, Kobashi or Akiyama is given more time in the ring. Similarly, in the 1970s, Baba takes a backseat to Jumbo in so many of the tags. This is just how those tags were structured and it comes down to that hierarchy thing that is so frequently praised in AJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Well that is a peculiar way of comprehending presence and definitely not what I was talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 You seem very antagonistic these days GOTNW. In what ways do Jumbo's performances in the Choshu tags differ from Baba's in tags in the 1970s or Misawa's in tags in the 1990s? My view is that they are all of a piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 I don't see what match structure has to do with it really. It isn't a matter of how much ring time a guy gets or what the focus of the match is. But to that point-Jumbo never feels like a great obstacle to overcome like Misawa did and his comebacks aren't nearly as engaging to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Alright fair enough. For me, Jumbo's massive wake-up calls when he does stuff like smashing an opponent from the apron (which became a standard AJ spot, inherited by Misawa wholesale) and the tangible levels of electricity whenever him and Choshu would go at it, have presence. I thought 85-6 was the first time he really felt like "the Man". But y'know, opinions are what they are. Incidentally, I don't recall people being as down on Jumbo like this when the AJ 80s set was actually happening and we were all reviewing these matches together. Funny how time appears to change perception. It's interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 A more realistic, warts and all approach to Jumbo isn't something that started with this project. People have been tossing these ideas around since before the DVDVR set. It's a proper critical analysis of an all-time great and something you'd hope and expect most candidates to go through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Can't speak for others but I'm not down on Jumbo at all. Have him No. 6 right now. And my comment wasn't particular to Kawada. I consider the difference between him, Misawa and Kobashi to be almost purely a matter of taste. I just think it's worth keeping in mind that you have ground yet to cover with the '90s crew as opposed to Jumbo. I actually think Kobashi is the wrestler whose standing might change the most, for better or worse, based on stuff you haven't yet watched. You mentioned no one outstripping Misawa on great matches. But Kobashi might have him beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Jumbo is not perfect (of course no one is) but even if you disregard his 70's and 80's work (through '88), I'm still not sure how he could be left off a list just for 1989-1992. But maybe that's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Who has disappointed you the most? Those BJW guys. What's been disappointing about my Big Japan lads? Misawa is behind the other 3 All Japan Pillars as far as career output goes.??? This Japan thread has been one of the more surprising to me since this whole GWE deal started. For purely Jumbo-related reasons or is there something else that you've found surprising? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Daisuke Sekimoto is in the top 10 worst wrestlers who people think is good. He's easily in my top 50 worst wrestlers ever. Evan Karagious, Prince Iakeau, and Al Snow all look down upon him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Daisuke Sekimoto is in the top 10 worst wrestlers who people think is good. He's easily in my top 50 worst wrestlers ever. Evan Karagious, Prince Iakeau, and Al Snow all look down upon him. As of now, Sekimoto is #32 on my ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 I think Sekimoto can be a good tool when he's not going overboard with modern puro tropes but I've never thought he was close to being the best worker in BJW alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted January 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Which Japanese wrestler will you rank highest? Shiyna Hashimoto. I'm still finishing my Ohtani thing so I doubt I'll have enough time to make a gigantic case for Hashimoto but I don't think there's any single criteria which would "disqualify" him from ranking #1. I mean I get that most folks just don't like him as much as I do but getting that he is a perfectly fine choice for that spot acknowledged would be progress by itself. I think. Maybe. I can't see putting Hashimoto at #1 but I have been thinking about him as possibly the best Japanese wrestler. Right now I think I'd go Tenryu but there are a few people I'd consider and Hashimoto is one of them. Hash has a murders row list of great matches against weird opponents like Zangiev, Tenryu, Chono, Mutoh, Choshu, Jushin Liger, Hiroshi Hase, Nobuhiko Takada, Yoshiaki Fujiwara, Kazuo Yamazaki, Steven Regal, and others I'm forgetting off the top of my head. Its a pretty diverse group of dudes that grows larger when you start adding tags in. It's one thing to have 8 great matches with Mitsuharu Misawa. Having a great match with Victor Zangiev in his first match in front of 50,000 people is another thing altogether. He was a great ace/defender of New Japan. Great in long matches, short matches, singles, tags, etc. No one ever talks about his selling but he was a vastly underrated seller while maintaining his badass aura. Was one of the best big show main event spectacle workers ever but would also bust his ass in random indy's in front of 25people. I love Hash. I want to put him #1 but there are like 3-10 guys I would put ahead of him right this second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted January 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 I was thinking about my 70s, 80s, 90s etc question and how it doesn't really give as accurate a picture as you'd like. For example, I don't really see Tenryu as a #1 candidate for the 80s or 90s. But I can't come up with anyone offhand I'd put ahead of him from 85-95 other than maybe Fujiwara. I see Tenryu as a potential #1 candidate but you wouldn't see that looking at "best of" lists for the specific calendar decades. So screw the decades. Who had the best 10+year run and when was it (pick your own parameters)? Who had the best 10 year run and when was it? Who had the best 5 year run and when was it? Who had the best 3 year run and when was it? Who had the best 2 year run and when was it? Who had the best single year and when was it? Edit And feel free to be as specific as you desire. If you want to say for example Kawada from 12/3/93-12/6/96 is the best 3 year peak that is totally encouraged. You don't have to say 1/94-1/97. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El McKell Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Who had the best 10+year run and when was it (pick your own parameters)? Kenta Kobashi: 1993 - 2005 Who had the best 10 year run and when was it? Kenta Kobashi 1995 - 2004 Who had the best 5 year run and when was it? Mitsuharu Misawa: Summer 1990 - Summer 1995 Who had the best 3 year run and when was it? Jumbo Tsuruta 1989 - 1991 Who had the best 2 year run and when was it? Hiroshi Tanahashi 2012 + 2013 Who had the best single year and when was it? Hiroshi Tanahashi 2013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Hash has a murders row list of great matches against weird opponents That's a great point I made in a fb conversation a few days ago, you don't think of a guy like Kodo Fuyuki as a great Hashimoto opponent but he totally is one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB8 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 The thing that surprised me about the Hashimto/Fuyuki match is that it's largely all matwork (or at least that's how I remember it. It's been five years since I saw it), and Hash/Fuyuki doing matwork for fifteen minutes doesn't really seem like a slam dunk on paper, but there's a constant and palpable sense of contempt between the two the whole time. Then they stand up and smash each other in the face for a bit before going back to the mat, and every time they do that the hate seems to build to even greater levels. They communicate this through really gritty matwork (and obviously through the face-smashing). As good as he is, matwork isn't necessarily something people point to as a thing Hashimoto is excellent at, but I would rather watch him work the mat than Mutoh or Chono a hundred times out of a hundred, just for the fact that with Hash there's always the sense that the match could just take a turn any second and the matwork would turn into a slaughter. It might very well still be "time killing matwork," but it never FEELS that way with Hashimoto, at least not to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 A more realistic, warts and all approach to Jumbo isn't something that started with this project. People have been tossing these ideas around since before the DVDVR set. It's a proper critical analysis of an all-time great and something you'd hope and expect most candidates to go through. Agreed. It's what Flair has gone through over the past decade-to-fifteen years. It's what Lawler or Fujiwara or Tenryu will go through over the next decade if they finish in the Top 5. Part of it will be another generation of fans coming along, some of who will stick to the new consensus while others find flaws. It's common in all criticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Okay, but then why do people get all precious and up in arms if I ever suggest they are ever willingly trying to be different or that they are writing with an existing concensuses already in mind? This is an environment where I get laughed at for suggesting Taue is "under the radar" and told that 250 luchadores have a better arm drag Ricky Steamboat. But woe betide the man who suggests that people are being self-conscious about their lists. Forgive me for thinking it's a little disingenuous. I've been interested in the critical process and in the idea of list-making for many years now. Maybe I'm acutely aware of the risks of posturing and am prone to point it out when I see it. Although looking at recent threads, since there are such a spread of views I wonder if any of the three jdw named will finish top 5. Tenryu most likely I'd say, the Pepsi to Jumbo's Coke. My suspicion is that the collective list results will be more conventional than so much of the talk has suggested. Apart from things most are agreed on (like Kurt Angle not being all that). On another note, I might spend a good chunk of today watching New Japan matches featuring the musketeers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 The problem is that you still insist on it being "disingenuous". You can be part of a wider history of criticism of a particular wrestler, and be aware of and disagree with existing criticism surrounding them, without being willing contrarian. You can just have a different opinion, maybe born out of disagreeing with an existing talking point or widely-held belief, or maybe not even disagreeing but just coming at it from another angle. Again it's the questioning of people's motives that doesn't sit well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted February 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Which Japanese wrestler will you rank highest? The last list I made had Tenryu at #4 with the closest guy being Kawada at 8. Misawa, Fujinami & Jumbo also made the top 12. Fujiwara, Tamura, Hashimoto & Liger were sort of my next tier all making the top 20. If I did a list right this second, I might rank Hashimoto 2nd to Tenryu. Which Japanese wrestlers do you expect to make your list? A lot. The above named guys obviously. Kobashi, Aja, Choshu, Chigusa, Jaguar, Hokuto, Devil, Ozaki, Kansai, Bull, Destroyer, Volk Han, Taue, Maeda, Yamazaki, Baba, Akiyama, Kikuchi, Hamada, Otsuka, Sano, Yatsu, Ishikawa, Ikeda ,Anjoh, Onita, Fuchi, Ikeda, Hase, Ohtani, Saito are all locks. With a bunch of other possible/probable names. Who was your favorite Ace? Hashimoto or Maeda. Liger is a fun off the wall pick too actually. Misawa probably had the very best matches as an ace but I'd rather watch the other guys. Favorite Top Challenger? In a traditional sense of a top challenger, Kawada for sure. But I wanted to give Tenryu some love for basically having a Tenryu vs the World career in the 90s with big singles & tag matches against Jumbo, Hogan, Flair, Savage, The Road Warriors, Onita, Takada, all of New Japan. He's pretty much the closest thing to Ric Flair in 90s Japan. Tenryu had a big match with basically every relevant star in Japan except for Maeda, Tamura, Volk Han types. And FUCK do I want to watch a Maeda vs Tenryu match from 1988. Who was your favorite under the radar guy? This is definitely a "make it whatever you want it to be category." It could be related to push or their standing in this project or whatever. Since PWO is such a footage haven with so many people nominated, I wanted to point out somebody not even nominated. I'm not sure if I would because I've never thought about him in a meaningful way. But I have to say Takashi Iizuka has to have the 3 best matches for someone not nominated between the Steiners/Fujinami Tag from WrestleWar, the Nagata/Kawada/Fuchi tag from 12/00 and the Hashimoto/Ogawa/Murakami tag from 1/00. Those are all really great matches. Kazunari Murakami is another guy I wanted to mention because I just watched a really fun match between him and Marafuji where Murakami just bloodied and beat the crap out of him. He won't make my list but he'd by way up a favorites list. Who has disappointed you the most? This is kinda hard for me. Jumbo in a sense because like a lot of people I'm not in love with a lot his 80s work before Choshu showed up. But at the same time there's a lot of it I think is really great. I really like him from Choshu's invasion on through to the end of his run as a serious worker so he feels like a weird pick and is a lock for my top 15. Inoki went from a guy I thought was just inconsistent and had plenty of tools and could have good matches with the right opponent to one of my handful of least favorite wrestlers. Who has surprised you the most? (I wanted to add this to end on a positive note. I'll toss out some love) Tenryu leapfrogging everyone else. Hashimoto going from a guy I always loved and thought was underrated and a top 50 sort of guy to being a guy I still love and a top 10-15 sort of guy. Tamura being a great mat wrestler within the first 10 matches of his career. I mean what the fuck. Fujiwara being a guy I never watched back in the tape trading days to becoming a favorite and top 10 candidate. The hype is real. Fujinami's late 70s-89 run. Akira Maeda's 84-90 run. Super Tiger who I sorted of dreaded watching on the NJ set then became one of my favorite wrestlers on the Other Japan set and I was sad when he left. What a totally bizarre career. Kodo Fuyuki in late 90s FMW The Carl Greco experience. I need to think more about the specific best runs for x-number of years questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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