Top Japanese Wrestlers

[JerryvonKramer]

The problem is that you still insist on it being "disingenuous".

 

You can be part of a wider history of criticism of a particular wrestler, and be aware of and disagree with existing criticism surrounding them, without being willing contrarian. You can just have a different opinion, maybe born out of disagreeing with an existing talking point or widely-held belief, or maybe not even disagreeing but just coming at it from another angle.

 

Again it's the questioning of people's motives that doesn't sit well.

I guess what it boils down to is that when it comes to GWE, all I care about is "who is better", and to me it always seems a bit strange -- not just in this process but just in general -- that someone can be actually hurt by being the existing favourite. That SHOULDN'T matter, I mean it shouldn't matter to the assessment of any given person, but it does.

 

I mean, I'm a Shakespeare critic, as you know, and I see it all the time -- people want to pull their guy up, Christopher Marlowe say, or Ben Jonson, or Kyd or some newly discovered female author, whoever, by pushing Shakespeare down.

 

This is a phrase Will (he of "from Texas" fame, not "from Stratford") is fond of using, and I'm definitely fan of his line of thinking on this: "You don't need to push one thing down to pull another thing up", but that is what seems to happen a lot, all over the place.

[Jimmy Redman]

I see that, but at the same time it's just...that's kind of an inevitable by-product of criticism. If one thing becomes canon, the way to make new canon is to compare it to existing canon. That's the context you're judging it against.

 

Look at it the other way - you seem to come at this like whatever is established canon MUST be the best and any attempts to re-judge it as anything but, or even just to suggest that others could be equally valid canon, are clearly contrarian. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the notion that things are canon for a reason, but at the same time, does that make them immune to revision? To criticism? To an argument that results in them not being canon anymore? How is that any more scholarly, to just accept the canon as a fait accompli?

[JerryvonKramer]

It also works both ways, of course.

 

I'm going to watch a whole batch of Hash soon, and ideally I'd want to go in just viewing the guy on its own merits, and I'll try to do that, but it's rather difficult if I have "so this is the guy who is meant to be better than Jumbo" running in the back of my mind during it.

 

It could end up being unfair to him, because well Jumbo is Jumbo and most people aren't going to compare favourably. But now he's been hyped and touted as the best thing. I guess this is the nature of hype and the expectations it creates.

[InYourCase]

Okay, but then why do people get all precious and up in arms if I ever suggest they are ever willingly trying to be different or that they are writing with an existing concensuses already in mind?

 

This is an environment where I get laughed at for suggesting Taue is "under the radar"

This is an environment where people consider Taue to arguably the best of the four pillars. People on this site are higher on Taue than any other place I know. This is the wrong place to say he's under the radar because he's simply not.

[Jimmy Redman]

It also works both ways, of course.

 

I'm going to watch a whole batch of Hash soon, and ideally I'd want to go in just viewing the guy on its own merits, and I'll try to do that, but it's rather difficult if I have "so this is the guy who is meant to be better than Jumbo" running in the back of my mind during it.

 

It could end up being unfair to him, because well Jumbo is Jumbo and most people aren't going to compare favourably. But now he's been hyped and touted as the best thing. I guess this is the nature of hype and the expectations it creates.

 

Sure. But at the same time, I can go into Jumbo blind and have "this is the guy who is meant to be the GOAT" running in the back of my mind. Which I in fact did, whenever it was that I began watching Jumbo.

 

Like you say, that's the nature of any kind of hype.

 

I mean, I still think Shawn Michaels is the GOAT, and I couldn't care less about all the "revisionism" on him from everyone around here.

[funkdoc]

JvK, the issue is that the established canon is so exalted & privileged that you simply *have* to drag it down somewhat for others to be on a level playing field

 

why do you think the concept of "rockism" was created? because rock critics have automatically been treated as the most important voices in popular music criticism for a long, long time. there's no way to push anything else to that same level since a lot of it is based on history, so the more reasonable solution is to argue that nobody should be treated as sacred cows to that degree.

 

i think this is an even bigger issue in wrestling since meltzer has controlled so much of the discourse. his influence is only now starting to wane, and only incrementally so.

[KB8]

Who had the best 10+year run and when was it (pick your own parameters)?

- He had downtime at points and there were stretches where there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of notable footage, but Tenryu from around '85/'86 until the end of 2002 is probably my favourite lengthy run of anyone ever. I haven't really looked at his late-90s run after WAR pretty much died, but based on the 2000 All Japan comeback I can't imagine he sucked in '98/'99. Then in 2002 he might be the greatest cantankerous old bastard in wrestling history. He was still showing up and being awesome in New Japan and NOAH in 2004-2006 as well, whether he was being a cranky old bully to Tanahashi in the G1 or throwing water bottles at Kobashi's mouth before getting his chest caved in by chops, but I wouldn't argue he was one of the best wrestlers in the world at that point (whereas I would for 2002).

Who had the best 10 year run and when was it?

- I feel like this might be Tenryu from, say, '86-'96, although that run includes a couple years where he wasn't necessarily amazing. '87 had a lot of on-paper stuff that disappointed to some degree, and he unfortunately he doesn't seem to have that much from '94/'95, which is especially frustrating considering he might've been at his peak around then judging by the incredible '93 and awesome '96 those years are sandwiched in between.

Fujiwara from '84-'94 is probably up there, though I've seen almost no PWFG post-1992. Maybe he was doing less after 1991 than I'm remembering as well.

Actually, maybe it's Fujinami from '80-'90. Yeah, probably that.

I'm not huge on All Japan the further into the decade they went, but I wouldn't really argue too hard if someone picked one of the Pillars.

Who had the best 5 year run and when was it?

- Lots of guys have cases here. Tenryu '89-'93. Both Kawada and Misawa '92-'96 (or any five year stretch between '90 and '97, I guess). Hashimoto '92-'96. Pick a five year stretch from the 80s and put Fujinami's name next to it. Ishikawa/Ikeda '95-'99. Fujiwara '86-'90.

Who had the best 3 year run and when was it?

- Tamura '97-'99. I'm down on him pre-'86ish, but Jumbo from '90-'92 was a hell of a run.

Who had the best 2 year run and when was it?

- Maybe Misawa in '94-'95. Or Tamura in '98-'99.

Who had the best single year and when was it?

- Tenryu in '89 or '93, Fujiwara in '86, Ikeda in 2010, Hashimoto in '93 or '96, Misawa in '95, Kawada in '93 or '96. I'll go Tenryu in '93 (that's my favourite, anyway).

[InYourCase]

Who had the best 10+year run and when was it (pick your own parameters)?

Tenryu from 1986 through 2005 has to be it. 1986 was when he started to come into his own, starting with the 1/28/86 match, did amazing stuff for the next 19 years, then had an excellent 2005 in NOAH. vs. KENTA, w/ Akiyama vs. Kobashi & Taue, and w/ Akiyama vs. Kobashi & Shiozaki. All high-level stuff because of Tenryu.

Who had the best 10 year run and when was it?

Has to be Fujinami from 1980-1990, right?

Who had the best 5 year run and when was it?

KENTA from 2005-2009 has to be in consideration. That's the first name that came to my mind.

Who had the best 3 year run and when was it?

Kobashi from 2003-2005. No questions asked.

Who had the best 2 year run and when was it?

Okada from 2012-2013

Who had the best single year and when was it?

Mochizuki's 2011, KENTA's 2009 and Taue's 1995

[DR Ackermann]

For Fujinami I would say 79-89. He was out for most of 1990 and wasn't the same when he returned, whereas in 1979 he was already producing great matches like the ones he had with Ryuma Go that we have on tape.

[ohtani's jacket]

This is a phrase Will (he of "from Texas" fame, not "from Stratford") is fond of using, and I'm definitely fan of his line of thinking on this: "You don't need to push one thing down to pull another thing up", but that is what seems to happen a lot, all over the place.

 

 

Well, actually you do, since every time you put a new worker on your list somebody has to fall off. If you rearrange your list from last time people are going to rise and fall. If you put Jim Breaks in your top 10, as at one time you said you would, then somebody else misses out on a top 10 finish, which is fairly significant, and it reverberates even further than that with guys missing out on a top 20 spot, top 30, and so on. So you do have to push things down when you're ranking them.

 

Here's the thing that I don't get, Parv: you have fairly strong opinions about what you like and don't like in wrestling, and you're not afraid to be outspoken, yet you seem to think that everyone's collective canon should be the same. In other words, you seem to think that the stuff you like is stuff that everybody should like as though there's some sort of conventional wisdom about these things. That's not the way these boards have worked in the past ten years. You've got guys who've been around the block a dozen times, seen a ton of stuff, rejected conventional wisdom, and found their own little niche, mixed with newer posters who are finding their own paths. The whole process of list making is individual. Nobody makes your list for you, and at the most painstaking times there's no canon to fill in your ballot for you. The canon, or whatever you want to call it, is the end result of the ballots being collected and tallied. It'll be 90% predictable with a few surprises and a few disappointments. It won't be radical. It will be largely conservative as far this circle goes. Jumbo will finish somewhere in the top 10. Flair will finish somewhere in the top 10. So why fret about them?

 

Maybe you can't get that gremlin out of your head when watching Hashimoto fight but the same thing can happen when you pre-read about any worker. Hashimoto isn't an outlandish choice for number one. I don't think he's the GWE, but he's a guy where I can say, "yeah, I can see that" when it comes to somebody else. I think that's obvious to anybody who enjoys Hashimoto. I don't think you're gonna love him. I would be surprised if you jumped on the Hashimoto bandwagon, but that's for a multitude of reasons the least of which is that a few people think he's better than Flair or Jumbo. But here's the thing -- conventional smark wisdom, if you believe in it, says Hashimoto was the best of the 90s New Japan heavies, etc. etc. Let's say you take a dislike to him and decide to reject all that. Maybe you want to push the idea that Hase was the best heavy. What are you gonna do with your canon then? Are you gonna push someone down to push another guy up?

 

One smaller point, I could be wrong, but I think there's a number of guys who watched, or are watching, the DVDVR sets after the voting periods who are formulating their own opinions on the stuff as they work through them for the project. So I don't think it's a case of people suddenly changing their tune about how good Jumbo was.

[JerryvonKramer]

OJ, I've already said many times I don't give a shit about the final results or, indeed, what anyone else does with their list. The process ceased to mean anything to me beyond my own list a good while back.

 

I want to provide a semblance of scrutiny and ask questions and for reasoning, but I think I will stop doing that because it seldom seems to lead anywhere good.

 

The main reason I've asked quite a lot of questions in this thread is summed up by the disparity between these two screen shots:

 

 

 

But then again I do realise that the current crowd and the crowd who were involved in that project are slightly different.

[Childs]

There's no disparity. It is entirely possible to believe Jumbo was in a bunch of the best All-Japan matches of the 80s but that he did not have a better decade than Flair or Fujinami or Lawler. Those are simply not contradictory concepts. I think Jumbo was great. I have him No. 6 overall and would have him top 5 for the eighties. But I voted for Flair as I'm guessing you might also.

[ohtani's jacket]

That's a list of the top 27 All Japan matches of the 80s not the top 27 matches for the entire decade. Of course Jumbo is going to feature prominently on a list of the best All Japan matches. The number of Jumbo matches that would feature on an overall top 20 would be dramatically less. Only match 1 and 3 would be strong contenders.

[JerryvonKramer]

How many Fujiwara or Fujinami matches would feature in such a list? And which ones?

 

I ask because as time runs out I may have to bee-line 80s NJ a bit more. Seems unlikely that I'll get through 8 more discs at this point. Unless I literally spend all of my spare time in February watching wrestling, which also seems unlikely.

[ohtani's jacket]

If you go by DVDVR results, then excluding gauntlet matches and multi-man tags the contenders would be:

 

Riki Choshu vs. Yoshiaki Fujiwara (6/9/87)

Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Akira Maeda (6/12/86)

Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Riki Choshu (4/3/83)

Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Super Tiger (12/5/1984)

Fujinami and Fujiwara featured just as prominently in the New Japan and Other Japan voting as Jumbo did with All Japan.

[JerryvonKramer]

Look forward to the ones I've not seen.

 

I didn't even think Fujinami vs. Choshu was 4-star when I watched it. I mean I wasn't aware that was the one that was talked up as I was watching it, and it just seemed like a match setting up for a bigger feud to me. For hype vs. how much I enjoyed it, it might be the most disappointing series I can think of. 7/7/83 was the one I liked most and even that wasn't really threatening to sniff five-star.

 

I guess it may also come down to which style you prefer. NJ is just much too mat-heavy for my philistine tastes. Not enough action generally. Which probably makes sense for a company run by the most boring wrestler who ever walked the planet (Inoki).

[Matt D]

My reasoning for the discrepancy: The shift of a subsection's preferences from old definitions of work to character and storytelling has been a gradual thing over a number of years and those years included the voting period for the DVDVR sets?

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm not sure I'd make Fujinami a poster boy for character work, Matt.

[ohtani's jacket]

Fujinami vs. Choshu has a through line if you have a rough idea of the angle surrounding it and the cultural significance. It's slightly more "Japanese" than something like Jumbo/Tenryu or Jumbo/Tenryu vs. Choshu/Yatsu, for want of a better word. Those feuds are easier to understand in terms of the pro-wrestling narratives and archetypes people grew up with. Choshu/Fujinami is digestible as a rivalry, but there's a bit more going on than Dude #1 in black trunks fights Dude #2 in black trunks in the ultimate show of New Japan Strong Style. It was far more cutting edge at the time than anything Baba was doing.

[JerryvonKramer]

Jumbo vs. Tenryu spoke to me as a superb establishment vs. rebel narrative, that was at once very pro wrestling and very Japanese, with Jumbo representing the hierarchy and Tenryu the rebel.

 

To me that feud speaks to me like Flair vs. Steamboat or Vince vs. Austin, or any other all-time US feud you care to name.

 

I guess I just don't really understand what Fujinami vs. Choshu is about.

[Microstatistics]

Quoting something I found posted somewhere online which really helped me understand the feud and the roles of the two better.

 

"You gotta understand some of Japanese culture to understand the feud.

In Japan, politics and seniority is usually more important than skill and knowledge. (I'm sure some people would say it's the same in the U.S., but let's just say Japan is so more than the U.S.)

Choshu, although he turned pro with a successful amateur record, didn't get much push. Fujinami, on the other hand, had always been "Inoki's boy" and was promised the top position in the future. After Fujinami moved up to the heavyweight division, he was still getting push by winning WWF International Heavyweight title, and there wasn't really a place for Choshu to fit in. Choshu went to Mexico and captured the prestigeous UWA World Heavyweight Title and claimed that he should now be on the same status as Fujinami. After coming back to Japan, he was still treated as "lower" than Fujinami, and it lead to the breakup between them during the 6man tag team match with Inoki against Abdullah, Bad News Allen, and SD Jones.

Choshu immediately became a big hero by breaking "the rule of the society". Known as "Revolutionary", he was one of the main factors for New Japan's golden era in early 80s."

[Loss]

So was it a lot of kayfabe breaking? I don't understand what it means in a worked sense to be "treated lower". Maybe it's just the word choice.

[ohtani's jacket]

This may not look like much, but this is the December 1982 edition of Big Wrestler magazine where Choshu is first credited with his famous "kamaseinu" line. Over the years, it's been mythologised a bit with people claiming he said it on the mic at Korakuen Hall, but I don't believe that was the case.

 

[ohtani's jacket]

So was it a lot of kayfabe breaking? I don't understand what it means in a worked sense to be "treated lower". Maybe it's just the word choice.

 

What he basically told him was that he wasn't going to be a guy who's only there to make Fujinami look good, which in wrestling terms refers to a jobber, but to the audience it played to had a wider sociological impact since it related to how they felt about their seniors, bosses and supervisors.

[Childs]

My reasoning for the discrepancy: The shift of a subsection's preferences from old definitions of work to character and storytelling has been a gradual thing over a number of years and those years included the voting period for the DVDVR sets?

 

Again, there is no discrepancy. Parv juxtaposed two votes that were based on entirely different questions. Believing Jumbo participated in many of the best All-Japan matches of the '80s is not now and never was equivalent to believing he was the best wrestler of the '80s.

 

Once we get the GWE results, if Jumbo is No. 12 as opposed to the commanding No. 1 he was for Smarkschoice, we can debate why. But for now, this strain of debate is based on a shoddy premise.