Self-contained Chris Benoit and GWE Talk

[Grimmas]

First, that Colon stuff is all just rumours and was mostly spread by Brody friends. Is it true, maybe? However no proof of it. For all we know Brody could had been killed in self defense or in an actual murder. We don't know.

 

For Benoit. It's sad to see how misunderstood mental illness really is. Looking at him and going "MURDERER" is really not the reaction you should have. 5 years ago I would had been on board, however we are learning a lot more about mental illness know or atleast it's becoming something that people talk about.

 

Benoit had mental issues, probably his whole life, he dealt with depression and also dealt with an incredibly damaged brain. Yes he murdered his wife and child and then committed suicide, but it's not like he's some cold blooded killer. The guy was severely diseased. It's really a tragic and sad situation.

 

The reason I have trouble watching him is that his style directly lead to his damaged brain which lead to him doing a horrible crime.

[NotJayTabb]

The reason I have trouble watching him is that his style directly lead to his damaged brain which lead to him doing a horrible crime.

 

I think for a lot of people this is one of the key reason's they find watching Benoit hard. The last Benoit match I properly sat down and watched was vs Regal at No Mercy 06. There's a point where Benoit bloodies Regal's forehead with a series of straight headbutts where the knowledge of what happens less than 12 months later makes it too unpleasant to watch.

[jamesie_2015]

First, that Colon stuff is all just rumours and was mostly spread by Brody friends. Is it true, maybe? However no proof of it. For all we know Brody could had been killed in self defense or in an actual murder. We don't know.

 

For Benoit. It's sad to see how misunderstood mental illness really is. Looking at him and going "MURDERER" is really not the reaction you should have. 5 years ago I would had been on board, however we are learning a lot more about mental illness know or atleast it's becoming something that people talk about.

 

Benoit had mental issues, probably his whole life, he dealt with depression and also dealt with an incredibly damaged brain. Yes he murdered his wife and child and then committed suicide, but it's not like he's some cold blooded killer. The guy was severely diseased. It's really a tragic and sad situation.

 

The reason I have trouble watching him is that his style directly lead to his damaged brain which lead to him doing a horrible crime.

Thumbs up.

[anarchistxx]

For Benoit. It's sad to see how misunderstood mental illness really is.

 

I agree with a lot of that post, but the obvious problem with this line of reasoning is that people begin to use it as an excuse for bad behavior. A friend of mine dates someone who treats her like shit, cheats, manipulates, uses, and because she has read books about autism she has self diagnosed him as suffering from mild aspergers and uses that to explain why she tolerates his awful behavior.

 

You eventually end up at a point where nobody is willing to take personal responsibility for anything because they are under the belief they are suffering from some kind of mental illness. Everything from murder to rape to just plain unpleasant behavior is seen as merely a symptom of their illness and they are able to go on acting that way without ever believing that they personally have done anything wrong. I have ADD but I cannot use it as an excuse for not getting projects in on time at work, to use a more flippant example.

 

Chris Benoit's brain was clearly fucked up by all accounts, but there are many other people who have been in that position and not murdered their wife and child. Mental illness may in part explain his behavior but it does not excuse it.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

joeg makes a good point: wrestling is FILLED with scummy people. Benoit is far from the only murderer: we've also got Invader #1, for the obvious example. Scott Hall once shot a guy dead in a bar fight. Jimmy Snuka (probably) beat his girlfriend to death. New Jack has allegedly slain several people. Verne Gagne, Kensuke Sasaki, Great Khali, Mayumi Ozaki, Big Daddy, Ox Baker, and whichever-opponent-knocked-Emiko-Kado's-brains-out all killed people with their bare hands by accident, plus a number of outlaw-indy nobodies who've also managed to kill people in the ring through sheer incompetence. I'm sure plenty of people died in wrestler-related car wrecks back in the territory days. And of course a large number of workers have deliberately killed themselves, some in horrifically disturbing fashions (hello there, Larry Sweeney).

 

Are you honestly trying to say that if a wrestler dies in the ring then the other people involved are murderers and scum? Or if someone kills themselves they're scum?

[pol]

It's pretty clear people feel differently about Benoit because he's the one murderer they grew up with and in many cases venerated. I don't know why this is so hard for some people to understand.

[Danish Dynamite]

 

For Benoit. It's sad to see how misunderstood mental illness really is.

 

I agree with a lot of that post, but the obvious problem with this line of reasoning is that people begin to use it as an excuse for bad behavior. A friend of mine dates someone who treats her like shit, cheats, manipulates, uses, and because she has read books about autism she has self diagnosed him as suffering from mild aspergers and uses that to explain why she tolerates his awful behavior.

 

You eventually end up at a point where nobody is willing to take personal responsibility for anything because they are under the belief they are suffering from some kind of mental illness. Everything from murder to rape to just plain unpleasant behavior is seen as merely a symptom of their illness and they are able to go on acting that way without ever believing that they personally have done anything wrong. I have ADD but I cannot use it as an excuse for not getting projects in on time at work, to use a more flippant example.

 

Chris Benoit's brain was clearly fucked up by all accounts, but there are many other people who have been in that position and not murdered their wife and child. Mental illness may in part explain his behavior but it does not excuse it.

 

 

The study of mental illness is not about excusing actions, but understanding, explaining and possibly avoiding them.

 

This is a big moral issue to get into and I'm not sure we as a collective are quite the right group to do so. So I'll say up front that we should all be ready to just back out of this discussion at any time and go back to focussing on what we all share a love for: wrestling.

 

It sounds like your friend may be right, that her date is suffering from some sort of autism. That may explain his actions, but not excuse them. And it doesn't make it better that she stays with him. Her choice to stay, despite all the things she's trying to explain away, probably has more to do with her own unresolved issues than with her date. She should take the time to figure that stuff out first. And yes, her date may be of sound mind and just be a tremendous asshole.

 

Your ADD may not be an excuse for not turning in your projects on time, but if you're able to do that and still function pretty well, then your ADD is not all that bad. If it was debilitating, then it would be something that you should get help with, and it would be reason to find a job that suited you despite your problems. It may not be an excuse for not doing your work, but it may be reason for finding other work that becomes you better.

 

And obviously Benoit's mental state (which seems to unqestionably have been the reason for the horrible murders) is not an excuse or something that can trivialize what happened. But it seems to very likely be the clear explanation. And recognition of this is what can help avoid something similar happening again. Ignoring that extremely important factor (that it was not the work of an evil individual who might as well have done it twenty years earlier) is extremely damaging and potentially dangerous. It's never a good idea when analyzing things to only focus on the effect and ignore the cause, because you stare yourself blind on the argument that "no matter what anyone says it doesn't excuse the action". The difference between explain and excuse is too big, and wars have been fought because some people couldn't separate them.

[Danish Dynamite]

It's pretty clear people feel differently about Benoit because he's the one murderer they grew up with and in many cases venerated. I don't know why this is so hard for some people to understand.

 

I don't feel any different about him for that reason. I did not grow up on him, and have never had him anywhere near my favorites. Only what he did makes me feel differently about him, than the other cases mentioned in this thread. I think people have explained the difference between Benoit's actions and any other concrete example from the wrestling world.

[The Russian Daydream]

I did vote for Benoit. I looked at the evidence based purely on his wrestling and took none of what happened at the end into account. I am still a little unsure if that was the right thing to do, but here is how I justified it.

 

I tried to imagine he was an architect. He built some impressive buildings using very innovative techniques that were critically acclaimed at the time they were built. Then he murdered his wife and son and killed himself. But the buildings still stand. Did what he did affect how worthy of acclaim his work was? I felt not.

 

Of course this argument fails to address the theory that it was his career that ultimately caused the damage to his brain which may have contributed to his state of mind. I don't have an answer to that.

[Cap]

I am sort of in the camp that can watch Benoit if he is on a show I am watching or something like that, but doesn't really goo looking for Benoit matches anymore. I probably sat down once or twice since the whole thing to actually watch a Benoit match or matches. For me, like many, it isn't so much that I can't watch someone who know did something so terrible, it is that his career is such a clear and declarative reminder of what this business can be and what it can do to the human mind and body. He is - for this generation and maybe ever - the most glaring example of the dangers as they extend well beyond self harm. Other wrestler's families have been abused and have suffered, but Benoit's actions - as the logical extension of all that - highlight it all. To me, and I know people feel differently about this, there are obviously degrees when it comes to crime. Not all crime is created equal and not all outrage is equal, but I put sexual assault very close to murder. In turn, I do find isolating Benoit a little odd, but I get it. He was such a symbol for hardcore and internet fans for so long. For me, I wasn't into the E at all really at the time. I kept an eye on a few people, but I didn't watch regularly. However, I was really excited because he was set up to face Punk at the next ECW ppv (if I remember correctly) and I was going to make sure to see that. It is absolutely a different case than others, but I do think the more moral objection to Benoit is not proportionate to the general moral outrage people tend to express about other wrestlers. And I am not blaming anyone for that. It makes a ton of sense. Personally, I don't seek out stories about wrestlers and their shitty behavior. I don't put my head in the sand, but I never go looking for it. I don't watch wrestling for moral direction. I think it is because generally there is a distinction between what we watch and appreciate and the people who put on the show that most wrestling fans implicitly understand and accept. Sometimes, as is the case with Benoit, it is really hard to maintain that distinction though.

 

Ultimately, for me it is a just a complex thing that is hard to really put into words. I am not saying I am personally stressed by this or feel hardship at all. It is just hard to articulate how I feel about it. I can watch Benoit matches, but what he did certainly did affect my orientation to and my desire to watch him.

[pol]

 

It's pretty clear people feel differently about Benoit because he's the one murderer they grew up with and in many cases venerated. I don't know why this is so hard for some people to understand.

 

I don't feel any different about him for that reason. I did not grow up on him, and have never had him anywhere near my favorites. Only what he did makes me feel differently about him, than the other cases mentioned in this thread. I think people have explained the difference between Benoit's actions and any other concrete example from the wrestling world.

 

 

You're right, there absolutely are concrete differences. But I think for many people the one determining factor is the personal connection they had with the guy. Even if it weren't the case that his misdeeds were more heinous than any other wrestler's, I'd still think that people listing various examples of similar cases and calling out others for having a double standard was both obtuse and obnoxious.

[Danish Dynamite]

 

 

It's pretty clear people feel differently about Benoit because he's the one murderer they grew up with and in many cases venerated. I don't know why this is so hard for some people to understand.

 

I don't feel any different about him for that reason. I did not grow up on him, and have never had him anywhere near my favorites. Only what he did makes me feel differently about him, than the other cases mentioned in this thread. I think people have explained the difference between Benoit's actions and any other concrete example from the wrestling world.

 

 

You're right, there absolutely are concrete differences. But I think for many people the one determining factor is the personal connection they had with the guy. Even if it weren't the case that his misdeeds were more heinous than any other wrestler's, I'd still think that people listing various examples of similar cases and calling out others for having a double standard was both obtuse and obnoxious.

 

 

But wouldn't it be a double standard if they disregarded one guy because of a crime, and didn't disregard someone else depsite comitting the excact same crime, just because they have a personal connection with him? I understand that you cry more when a member of your family dies than when you hear about the death of someone you've never heard of, sure. It's human. But for the sake of this particular exercise, that would be a big time double standard to me. ... It cannot be in this particular case however, because not one of the cases people have brought up (that have been proven to be true) are remotely close to the Benoit case.

[cubbymark]

When this project started I pretty much penciled in Benoit as my #100. I recognized his ability and I was a huge fan of his. But I still have trouble getting past the horrible tragedy of June 2007.

 

We as a whole have learned a lot about brain injuries and CTE, and as a result I do have a bit of guilt in enjoying a style that led to Benoit to end up doing what he did. As a result, my emphasis on viewing stopped being so much about "MoVez and work rate and headdrops" being what determines a great wrestler.

 

It's caused me to reevaluate what I value in wrestling and what I can appreciate.

[Danish Dynamite]

The architecture analogy obviously doesn't hold water 100% (It probably wasn't building the house that made the architect kill his family, in the way that the way Benoit worked is likely a very big part if not the reason for his mental state. You're also not forced to look at and engage on some personal level with the architect as you are with Benoit when watching a match). But there is some fun and some interesting thoughts to be had, going down that road. How can we marvel at the ruins of the Colloseum in Rome or structures build under terrible regimes all over the world? How can we separate that from the horrors of the times? Is it because "we" just don't know or understand the crimes comitted throughout history? Recent and ancient... Is it because time does "heal all wounds"? Is it because there really can be a difference between the actions of a human being and the work that person did or art they made? Is it because at heart we don't want to be reminded of the bad things from history? Is it the excact opposite, because we actually use the landmarks to remind of us the past and what mistakes not to repeat?

[JRGoldman]

Jingus, can you please clarify the link you are trying to make between Benoit killing his wife and child and Larry Sweeney taking his own life? I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make.

[BAMptb]

Couldn't rank him. That's just me though. I don't have problems watching his matches, but understand it either way.

[The Thread Killer]

Jingus, can you please clarify the link you are trying to make between Benoit killing his wife and child and Larry Sweeney taking his own life? I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make.

 

That would be because there is no logical point being made.

[The Thread Killer]

For Benoit. It's sad to see how misunderstood mental illness really is. Looking at him and going "MURDERER" is really not the reaction you should have. 5 years ago I would had been on board, however we are learning a lot more about mental illness know or atleast it's becoming something that people talk about.

 

Benoit had mental issues, probably his whole life, he dealt with depression and also dealt with an incredibly damaged brain. Yes he murdered his wife and child and then committed suicide, but it's not like he's some cold blooded killer. The guy was severely diseased. It's really a tragic and sad situation.

 

I understand mental illness extremely well for reasons both professional and personal. I understand what you are saying Grimmas, and I respect the compassion that motivates your opinion, however I do not agree with you for two reasons.

 

Firstly, Nancy Benoit filed for divorce three years before the murders due to alleged domestic abuse. There is ample evidence to suggest that Chris Benoit was a domestic abuser before these murders occurred, based on things Nancy Benoit told friends and family members in the years prior to the murders. In other words, he was predisposed to domestic violence.

 

Secondly, Chris Benoit knew he was suffering from depression, since he was taking medication for it. However, he was also willingly and knowingly taking Testosterone at the same time. Anybody with even a fleeting familiarity with Testosterone will tell you that it causes increased aggression. Chris Benoit had to know this, yet he continued to take it. Not every person with CTE is predisposed towards aggression and murder.

 

I feel these two facts make him morally responsible for the murder of his wife and child.

 

There has been an interesting debate in psychiatric circles over the past couple of decades regarding people who are suffering from schizophrenia. It has been proven that people who are schizophrenic, even those who are severely paranoid, can be aware of the fact that they are suffering from an illness. The debate is regarding the responsibility the individual should bear for insuring they take their prescribed medication that would eliminate or lessen their symptoms. And if a person who is suffering from schizophrenia knowingly and willingly refuses to take their medication, are they then legally responsible for their behavior and any crimes they might commit in an alleged psychotic episode?

 

I believe people with mental illnesses have every right to lead normal lives in society just like everybody else. I think that claiming they have no moral responsibility for their actions is insulting them, not protecting them. Just because a person is mentally ill, it doesn't mean they can't differentiate between right and wrong. Just as you are morally responsible if you drink alcohol and drive a car, you are morally responsible if you know you suffer from a mental illness, but then refuse to get that illness treated or ingest substances which will exacerbate the symptoms of your illness.

 

I concede that Chris Benoit was mentally ill when he killed his wife and son. However, I feel that he was a domestic abuser prior to his psychotic episode, and that he is also morally responsible for his behavior leading up to that episode. I am not willing to absolve him of all responsibility for his actions. I understand the opinion of those who do, but I respectfully disagree.

[Grimmas]

 

For Benoit. It's sad to see how misunderstood mental illness really is. Looking at him and going "MURDERER" is really not the reaction you should have. 5 years ago I would had been on board, however we are learning a lot more about mental illness know or atleast it's becoming something that people talk about.

 

Benoit had mental issues, probably his whole life, he dealt with depression and also dealt with an incredibly damaged brain. Yes he murdered his wife and child and then committed suicide, but it's not like he's some cold blooded killer. The guy was severely diseased. It's really a tragic and sad situation.

 

I understand mental illness extremely well for reasons both professional and personal. I understand what you are saying Grimmas, and I respect the compassion that motivates your opinion, however I do not agree with you for two reasons.

 

Firstly, Nancy Benoit filed for divorce three years before the murders due to alleged domestic abuse. There is ample evidence to suggest that Chris Benoit was a domestic abuser before these murders occurred, based on things Nancy Benoit told friends and family members in the years prior to the murders. In other words, he was predisposed to domestic violence.

 

Secondly, Chris Benoit knew he was suffering from depression, since he was taking medication for it. However, he was also willingly and knowingly taking Testosterone at the same time. Anybody with even a fleeting familiarity with Testosterone will tell you that it causes increased aggression. Chris Benoit had to know this, yet he continued to take it. Not every person with CTE is predisposed towards aggression and murder.

 

I feel these two facts make him morally responsible for the murder of his wife and child.

 

There has been an interesting debate in psychiatric circles over the past couple of decades regarding people who are suffering from schizophrenia. It has been proven that people who are schizophrenic, even those who are severely paranoid, can be aware of the fact that they are suffering from an illness. The debate is regarding the responsibility the individual should bear for insuring they take their prescribed medication that would eliminate or lessen their symptoms. And if a person who is suffering from schizophrenia knowingly and willingly refuses to take their medication, are they then legally responsible for their behavior and any crimes they might commit in an alleged psychotic episode?

 

I believe people with mental illnesses have every right to lead normal lives in society just like everybody else. I think that claiming they have no moral responsibility for their actions is insulting them, not protecting them. Just because a person is mentally ill, it doesn't mean they can't differentiate between right and wrong. Just as you are morally responsible if you drink alcohol and drive a car, you are morally responsible if you know you suffer from a mental illness, but then refuse to get that illness treated or ingest substances which will exacerbate the symptoms of your illness.

 

I concede that Chris Benoit was mentally ill when he killed his wife and son. However, I feel that he was a domestic abuser prior to his psychotic episode, and that he is also morally responsible for his behavior leading up to that episode. I am not willing to absolve him of all responsibility for his actions. I understand the opinion of those who do, but I respectfully disagree.

 

That is a really great post.

 

Yeah, forgot about the abuse leading up to it. However, I would argue Benoit was ill probably his whole life. Stories about him working out so hard as a child to an obsessive amount.

 

My question is, if he wasn't in the wrestling business and had gotten proper treatment, would this murder/suicide had happened? Of course we can't know that... but I wonder. With proper treatment in terms of drugs, therapy and working in a different environment, you never know.

 

I've dealt with a lot of family issues with mental illness the last year and it really has changed how I look at Benoit.

 

Benoit obviously committed murder, but if he lived and didn't commit suicide I would want him getting treatment, not just thrown in jail to rot.

[Danish Dynamite]

 

For Benoit. It's sad to see how misunderstood mental illness really is. Looking at him and going "MURDERER" is really not the reaction you should have. 5 years ago I would had been on board, however we are learning a lot more about mental illness know or atleast it's becoming something that people talk about.

 

Benoit had mental issues, probably his whole life, he dealt with depression and also dealt with an incredibly damaged brain. Yes he murdered his wife and child and then committed suicide, but it's not like he's some cold blooded killer. The guy was severely diseased. It's really a tragic and sad situation.

 

I understand mental illness extremely well for reasons both professional and personal. I understand what you are saying Grimmas, and I respect the compassion that motivates your opinion, however I do not agree with you for two reasons.

 

Firstly, Nancy Benoit filed for divorce three years before the murders due to alleged domestic abuse. There is ample evidence to suggest that Chris Benoit was a domestic abuser before these murders occurred, based on things Nancy Benoit told friends and family members in the years prior to the murders. In other words, he was predisposed to domestic violence.

 

Secondly, Chris Benoit knew he was suffering from depression, since he was taking medication for it. However, he was also willingly and knowingly taking Testosterone at the same time. Anybody with even a fleeting familiarity with Testosterone will tell you that it causes increased aggression. Chris Benoit had to know this, yet he continued to take it. Not every person with CTE is predisposed towards aggression and murder.

 

I feel these two facts make him morally responsible for the murder of his wife and child.

 

There has been an interesting debate in psychiatric circles over the past couple of decades regarding people who are suffering from schizophrenia. It has been proven that people who are schizophrenic, even those who are severely paranoid, can be aware of the fact that they are suffering from an illness. The debate is regarding the responsibility the individual should bear for insuring they take their prescribed medication that would eliminate or lessen their symptoms. And if a person who is suffering from schizophrenia knowingly and willingly refuses to take their medication, are they then legally responsible for their behavior and any crimes they might commit in an alleged psychotic episode?

 

I believe people with mental illnesses have every right to lead normal lives in society just like everybody else. I think that claiming they have no moral responsibility for their actions is insulting them, not protecting them. Just because a person is mentally ill, it doesn't mean they can't differentiate between right and wrong. Just as you are morally responsible if you drink alcohol and drive a car, you are morally responsible if you know you suffer from a mental illness, but then refuse to get that illness treated or ingest substances which will exacerbate the symptoms of your illness.

 

I concede that Chris Benoit was mentally ill when he killed his wife and son. However, I feel that he was a domestic abuser prior to his psychotic episode, and that he is also morally responsible for his behavior leading up to that episode. I am not willing to absolve him of all responsibility for his actions. I understand the opinion of those who do, but I respectfully disagree.

 

 

See, I think it is possible to agree with both of you, because I don't think Steven absolves Benoit of any responsibility for his actions just because he, like you, seek to explain them. You didn't call him a cold blooded killer either, which I think was part of Steven's point.

 

But your post is very well written, very true and very interesting and I completely agree with you. I just think Steven might too.

 

EDIT: And ofcourse Steven beat me to it and for the record I still think it's possible to agree with both of you. Because I do. Completely, from what I can read from both your posts...

[Grimmas]

 

 

For Benoit. It's sad to see how misunderstood mental illness really is. Looking at him and going "MURDERER" is really not the reaction you should have. 5 years ago I would had been on board, however we are learning a lot more about mental illness know or atleast it's becoming something that people talk about.

 

Benoit had mental issues, probably his whole life, he dealt with depression and also dealt with an incredibly damaged brain. Yes he murdered his wife and child and then committed suicide, but it's not like he's some cold blooded killer. The guy was severely diseased. It's really a tragic and sad situation.

 

I understand mental illness extremely well for reasons both professional and personal. I understand what you are saying Grimmas, and I respect the compassion that motivates your opinion, however I do not agree with you for two reasons.

 

Firstly, Nancy Benoit filed for divorce three years before the murders due to alleged domestic abuse. There is ample evidence to suggest that Chris Benoit was a domestic abuser before these murders occurred, based on things Nancy Benoit told friends and family members in the years prior to the murders. In other words, he was predisposed to domestic violence.

 

Secondly, Chris Benoit knew he was suffering from depression, since he was taking medication for it. However, he was also willingly and knowingly taking Testosterone at the same time. Anybody with even a fleeting familiarity with Testosterone will tell you that it causes increased aggression. Chris Benoit had to know this, yet he continued to take it. Not every person with CTE is predisposed towards aggression and murder.

 

I feel these two facts make him morally responsible for the murder of his wife and child.

 

There has been an interesting debate in psychiatric circles over the past couple of decades regarding people who are suffering from schizophrenia. It has been proven that people who are schizophrenic, even those who are severely paranoid, can be aware of the fact that they are suffering from an illness. The debate is regarding the responsibility the individual should bear for insuring they take their prescribed medication that would eliminate or lessen their symptoms. And if a person who is suffering from schizophrenia knowingly and willingly refuses to take their medication, are they then legally responsible for their behavior and any crimes they might commit in an alleged psychotic episode?

 

I believe people with mental illnesses have every right to lead normal lives in society just like everybody else. I think that claiming they have no moral responsibility for their actions is insulting them, not protecting them. Just because a person is mentally ill, it doesn't mean they can't differentiate between right and wrong. Just as you are morally responsible if you drink alcohol and drive a car, you are morally responsible if you know you suffer from a mental illness, but then refuse to get that illness treated or ingest substances which will exacerbate the symptoms of your illness.

 

I concede that Chris Benoit was mentally ill when he killed his wife and son. However, I feel that he was a domestic abuser prior to his psychotic episode, and that he is also morally responsible for his behavior leading up to that episode. I am not willing to absolve him of all responsibility for his actions. I understand the opinion of those who do, but I respectfully disagree.

 

 

See, I think it is possible to agree with both of you, because I don't think Steven absolves Benoit of any responsibility for his actions just because he, like you, seek to explain them. You didn't call him a cold blooded killer either, which I think was part of Steven's point.

 

But your post is very well written, very true and very interesting and I completely agree with you. I just think Steven might too.

 

EDIT: And ofcourse Steven beat me to it and for the record I still think it's possible to agree with both of you. Because I do. Completely, from what I can read from both your posts...

 

Thanks. You are right. My whole point is calling him a cold blooded killer is really missing a lot of things.

[Ricky Jackson]

Not to be flippant but I'm curious as to what picture will accompany his reveal

[Jingus]

Are you honestly trying to say that if a wrestler dies in the ring then the other people involved are murderers and scum? Or if someone kills themselves they're scum?

If I meant that, I would have said that. My point is that Benoit gets his unique treatment because he ended human lives, yet he's far from the only wrestler to have accomplished that tragedy.

 

 

 

Jingus, can you please clarify the link you are trying to make between Benoit killing his wife and child and Larry Sweeney taking his own life? I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make.

 

That would be because there is no logical point being made.

 

Oh fuck off, Dave. My point is that there's plenty of mental illness and horrifying decisions to go around. And Benoit and Sweeney were both professional wrestlers who killed themselves via ligature strangulation while being attached to a piece of athletic equipment, which is an awfully specific similarity. Am I saying "depressed suicidal Larry Sweeney was equally morally reprehensible in every way as child-choking wife-throttling Chris Benoit"? NO, and you know fucking well that I'm not saying that. Stop putting words in my mouth.

 

My point, which you have continually refused to acknowledge, is that Benoit is not the only crazy person in the history of wrestling. There have been other murderers, other maniacs, other criminals. Benoit's arguably the worst for the sheer monstrousness of his acts at the time of his death, sure. But there are others. And how do you measure that stuff? Take the example of Hardbody Harrison, who kept at least eight (probably more) women as literal slaves and perpetual rape victims, locked up in houses he owned for years. That is astonishingly evil. Is enslaving eight people that much less-evil than killing two people? How do you quantify it at all?

 

I'm not making a single excuse for what Benoit did. I'm not on the "well, he was insane/concussed enough that we can't blame him" bandwagon. Right until his death, this guy kept performing a wide variety of complex tasks which indicate that his ability to comprehend the real world was largely intact. I'm simply saying that the wrestling business is so unbelievably full of sleazy shit that Benoit isn't as much of an unique outlier as many people like to portray him. As I said earlier, I personally know a wrestler who is now in prison for murder and a whole collection of other guys who've committed "lesser" crimes. The business is SO much scummier than most fans have any idea about.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

I kept putting Benoit back on my list after taking him off. He eventually stayed on my list. Now that I've seen guys like Necro Butcher and LA Park revealed, I regret keeping Benoit on and not replacing him with someone else.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

Are you honestly trying to say that if a wrestler dies in the ring then the other people involved are murderers and scum? Or if someone kills themselves they're scum?

If I meant that, I would have said that. My point is that Benoit gets his unique treatment because he ended human lives, yet he's far from the only wrestler to have accomplished that tragedy.

 

That's not the way you worded it. I don't see what in-ring deaths like Plum Mariko have to do with Benoit. They're not the same thing.