Comments that don't warrant a thread - Part 4

[MoS]

Not to make light of an awful situation, but this discussion reminded me of this fantastic tweet - 

https://x.com/snowboiiii/status/1792864611290505269 

Quote

every single benoit match, even the most throwaway tv match, has a bit that makes you go "well, that’s what did it"

 

[strobogo]

Snowboiiiii isn't wrong. I actually do think that every single Benoit match.

[MoS]

Oh absolutely. Going through the quote tweets and I had forgotten just how many absolutely horrifying bumps he took in his career, from his match with 2 Cold Scorpio at Superbrawl all the way back in 1993, all the way to the very last flying headbutt he did in his life, at least on camera. You could make a top 25 list of absolutely sickening head bumps taken by Benoit for every year of his career. 

[strobogo]

There's one specific match I think about against Macho on Nitro where he does a missed dive to the floor and lands forehead first on the foot of the guardrail, and then the match ends with Macho doing the elbow to the back of his head that might be the most impactful elbow he ever hit on anyone.

 

Edit: appears to be the first one in the quote tweets but doesn't include the flying elbow to the back of the head after. I can not believe after Dynamite and Harley that fuckos are still doing the diving headbutt, but especially after Benoit. Christian and Danielson coming back to wrestling after neck and concussion issues and still doing that move is what the fuck

[El-P]

Well, after Shibata they still do legit headbutt spots in Japan. Which in itself is completely dumb because it's not even a spectacular spot. But keeping doing it *now* is beyond ridiculous.

[KawadaSmile]

Not even just Danielson, Gable is doing that shit almost weekly and it ALWAYS looks gnarly. How that move isn't flat out banned is beyond me. 

[strobogo]

Fellers, I'm beginning to think pro wrestling is real dumb

[El-P]

Well....

😂

[NintendoLogic]

The flying headbutt is hands-down the dumbest move in wrestling history. Not only is it a virtually guaranteed ticket to a wheelchair or worse, it doesn't even look good from a work standpoint since it's plain as day the person delivering it is taking the brunt of the impact.

As for Benoit, the concussions obviously didn't help, but blaming them is too simplistic. Plenty of other wrestlers took horrifying bumps while abusing steroids and other drugs, but none of them murdered their children. Researchers of familicides divide them into four main categories:

Self-righteous: The killer seeks to locate blame for his crimes upon the mother whom he holds responsible for the breakdown of the family. This may involve the killer phoning his partner before the murder to explain what he is about to do. For these men, their breadwinner status is central to their idea of the ideal family.

Disappointed: This killer believes his family has let him down or has acted in ways to undermine or destroy his vision of ideal family life. An example may be disappointment that children are not following the traditional religious or cultural customs of the father.

Anomic: In these cases the family has become firmly linked in the mind of the killer to the economy. The father sees family as the result of his economic success, allowing him to display his achievements. However, if the father becomes an economic failure, he sees the family as no longer serving this function.

Paranoid: Those who perceive an external threat to the family. This is often social services or the legal system, which the father fears will side against him and take away the children. Here the murder is motivated by a twisted desire to protect the family.

If I were to hazard a guess as to Benoit's mental state, I'd say it was a mix of paranoid and anomic with maybe a bit of self-righteous. I don't know if he would have killed his family if he had become an insurance salesman, but he likely had a few screws loose before entering the business.

[El-P]

On a much lighter note, the Mania week craze of indie shows really has lost its luster with me. The fact so many of the hot indie guys of the last ten years have been signed by the big companies and the whole Forbidden Door stuff made japanese wrestlers and luchadors popping up much more of a normal thing sure doesn't help. Plus now half of the people on the Bloodsport card are WWE guys, GCW is hosting a WWEID tournament (they really have tanked whatever was left of their rep as a "rebel" promotion), TNA is chockfull of TNA talent too, so the "counter-programing" feel is not what is was anymore. No traditional ROH show (which honestly is a good move, really). The Mark Hitchcock & Joey Janela shows will probably be quite fun (the Sabu retirement match should be cool, although probably a complete trainwreck which would be fitting), and I'm sure there are other fun stuff around (although the Stardom cards are really disappointing), but yeah, it's nowhere near what it was a few years back. 

[strobogo]

Imagine being one of those WWE talents WM weekend where they send you to do indies because they have absolutely nothing for you, on 8 hours of shows between pre show and actual show.

[NintendoLogic]

Mania becoming a two-night event was probably a bigger blow to the indy shows than anything else. With that said, most of the young'uns are better off working actual matches with different opponents in front of different audiences than they would be having a cup of coffee in the Andre the Giant Battle Royal.

[Laz]

3 hours ago, El-P said:

On a much lighter note, the Mania week craze of indie shows really has lost its luster with me. The fact so many of the hot indie guys of the last ten years have been signed by the big companies and the whole Forbidden Door stuff made japanese wrestlers and luchadors popping up much more of a normal thing sure doesn't help. Plus now half of the people on the Bloodsport card are WWE guys, GCW is hosting a WWEID tournament (they really have tanked whatever was left of their rep as a "rebel" promotion), TNA is chockfull of TNA talent too, so the "counter-programing" feel is not what is was anymore. No traditional ROH show (which honestly is a good move, really). The Mark Hitchcock & Joey Janela shows will probably be quite fun (the Sabu retirement match should be cool, although probably a complete trainwreck which would be fitting), and I'm sure there are other fun stuff around (although the Stardom cards are really disappointing), but yeah, it's nowhere near what it was a few years back. 

That's been my biggest gripe about the indies for about a decade, really. Outside of the pure garbage deathmatch stuff, where's the independent company that's looking to do things in a legitimate different way than what we're getting on prime time TV?

[Timbo Slice]

11 hours ago, El-P said:

Well, after Shibata they still do legit headbutt spots in Japan. Which in itself is completely dumb because it's not even a spectacular spot. But keeping doing it *now* is beyond ridiculous.

I went to Japan in 2017 and landed after Sakura Genesis had already started. (Couldn’t make it in time due to me not being able to change my flight). I heard all about the head butt spot, the hospitalization, and then bought the iconic Weekly Pro Wrestling with him absorbing the Rainmaker. 
 

A couple days later, I go to Korakuen to see the opening day of the Champions Carnival. And in the final match? A fucking shoot headbutt trade spot with SUWAMA and Big Shuji. Couldn’t fucking believe it, man. And then again, I could. 

[KawadaSmile]

Speaking of head trauma, is The Rock/Mankind I Quit Match the most jarring instance of unprofessionalism that didn't turn into a full-on shoot?

 

As for actual headbutts, it seems to me that it's becoming a lost art, much like a proper worked punch. 

[sek69]

I often wonder if the only reason it didn't turn into a full-on shoot was that Foley was handcuffed.

[El-P]

12 hours ago, Timbo Slice said:

A couple days later, I go to Korakuen to see the opening day of the Champions Carnival. And in the final match? A fucking shoot headbutt trade spot with SUWAMA and Big Shuji. Couldn’t fucking believe it, man. And then again, I could. 

*facepalm*

Yeah, it's appalling. 

9 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

Speaking of head trauma, is The Rock/Mankind I Quit Match the most jarring instance of unprofessionalism that didn't turn into a full-on shoot ? 

Both were responsible though. Foley just had to never get up. But Dwayne was fucking awful. The fact Noelle Foley talks about how she has no recollection of seeing her dad wrestler is telling of some traumas. 

[El-P]

Watched the Wrestlecon show. Yeah, it doesn't hit like it used to a few years back. And one of the reasons is pretty simple : it's not unique anymore. Random ass matches like these happen a whole lot more since the so-called Forbidden Door has been open. TMDK vs Hechicero, Flip Gordon & Micheal Oku basically could be some NJPW US event match. Oku is more unique, and him and Amira being part of the festivities is super cool, but even, they just were on the free ROH Youtube show. Very good match, and more ZSJ vs Hechicero is always good with me, but nothing unique.

And then there's stuff like Suzuki vs Butterbean that really should not happen at all. And apparently Matt Riddle still get bookings not named Court Bauer. And Danhauser was there, and man he is NOT GOOD once the bell rings. If anyone had to be reminded why he never got further than he did in AEW (not to mention being a malcontent).

The most notable match actually was Mickie James vs Maki Itoh, if only for the bizarre anti-Meltzer promo Mickie cut right in the middle of a match, prompting a "Meltzer sucks" chant from the Wrestlecon crowd. Which is honestly kinda odd since she was putting over the "entertainment part" like she was a WWE worker, not to mention it led to James turning heel on Itoh and being booed for the reminder of the match. Fun match though (Mickie can still go, it's too bad she will never end up in AEW for a fun stint).

But yeah, not a great, frantic atmosphere either. 

[strobogo]

Amazing how absolutely awful Bloodsport shows are. The worst UWF/I show you've ever seen is 300% better than what Bloodsport does. It actually looks significantly lamer and faker than normal bad pro wrestling.

[El-P]

Yeah, I gave up on Bloodsport shows. Haven't seen the last one. Everytime I trick myself into checking them out, and there's like one or two cool matches and the rest is really, really bad. It seems people who have never seen any actual shoot-style cream themselves over it, but really now, this stuff is more akin to the terrible Inokism shit of the early 00's. I'm sure ZSJ vs Gresham was cool as hell, but they can have cool as hell regular match.

The fact it's just isolated shows basically makes 4-7 minutes matches pretty inconsequential. 

Also, Nattie Neidhart winning with a *sharpshooter* over Miyu Yamashita (heard the match was actually cool though). Bwahahah. Awesome involvement of WWE on indies shows, of course.

[Blehschmidt]

Come on @El-P you can't tell me that you never saw a bar fight or a fight at school end with a.... Sharp Shooter.

[El-P]

17 minutes ago, Blehschmidt said:

Come on @El-P you can't tell me that you never saw a bar fight or a fight at school end with a.... Sharp Shooter.

The infamous Gracie Sharpshooter. As taught in the snakepit.

Either that or the Claw. The Claw is street cred.

[El-P]

So the Sabu retirement match at Joey Janela's Springreak was the most Sabu retirement match imaginable. Almost killed himself, because of course.

[Robert S]

8 hours ago, El-P said:

Yeah, I gave up on Bloodsport shows. Haven't seen the last one. Everytime I trick myself into checking them out, and there's like one or two cool matches and the rest is really, really bad. It seems people who have never seen any actual shoot-style cream themselves over it, but really now, this stuff is more akin to the terrible Inokism shit of the early 00's. I'm sure ZSJ vs Gresham was cool as hell, but they can have cool as hell regular match.

The fact it's just isolated shows basically makes 4-7 minutes matches pretty inconsequential. 

Also, Nattie Neidhart winning with a *sharpshooter* over Miyu Yamashita (heard the match was actually cool though). Bwahahah. Awesome involvement of WWE on indies shows, of course.

I generally agree with that sentiment. The early shows at least had a cool "underground" vibe to them and it felt fresh to have wrestlers outside their normal environments trying to work matches. Also the shows were relatively short which made them easy to get through (in a good sense). Now it's three hour shows in a fully lit arena. I would say in general the quality of the work has improved (I am halfway through this show and all but the first match were at least okay, the opener was a stinker, though). I guess it's still good enough to watch one show a year of that style. The point regarding inconsequentiality is definitely spot on.

The agenting was a bit suspect. In one match, you have Regal's kid winning after a backdrop suplex (or a Regal-plex, I guess) where the ref stopped the match immediately after the move. In the next match you have a similar finish, though the ref did not care that the guy taking the backdrop was selling the move like death and had the match continue. Not the refs fault, just bad booking / agenting. I guess you have to expect such things on an indy show (especially full of wrestlers that probably wrestler 2-3 times that day).

[El-P]

1 hour ago, Robert S said:

The early shows at least had a cool "underground" vibe to them and it felt fresh to have wrestlers outside their normal environments trying to work matches. Also the shows were relatively short which made them easy to get through (in a good sense). Now it's three hour shows in a fully lit arena.

Not to mention out of ten matches, 7 involved WWE people, 6 of which won their matches. The underground feel is definitely dead. Between this and hosting the WWEID, sorry, the "ID tournament", GCW really put a stain on the idea of the Collective being this "let's support the indies" project.