Why does puro get so much love? Why does lucha get so dismissed?

[Grimmas]

 

 

 

 

 

Parv it's very cute how you've seemingly tried to turn yourself into a victim of "wrestling elitism" in this thread when you're the one who deliberately came in here to troll people by saying "lucha sucks." I don't even think you ACTUALLY think lucha sucks you just want to dismiss it and never see or hear about it again despite the fact that you've probably liked more lucha matches than you've disliked:

I think maybe "non-stickability" is something. I was relatively high on a lot of 80s Lucha set stuff but had very little desire to carry on, doesn't stick for some reason. It's like "that was a good match", but it feels ephemeral. Hard to put one's finger on, but I guess it really comes down to me feeling like not a lot matters.

But it's different and challenges you to think more than "oh look at Kobashi chop this guy really hard" so just say it sucks and move on.

I do feel victimised for not liking lucha, truth be told.

Well let me say that's pretty ridiculous as there are more people in this thread saying "I've never really gotten into lucha" than beating the lucha drum. If you've been "victimised" in this thread it's because you went out of your way to try and antagonize people who do like lucha by saying "it sucks" or dismissing and mocking people's posts defending it or trying to explain why it's not as popular as other forms of wrestling.

 

If you walk down the street with a kick me sign on your back, you don't get to claim you're a victim when someone kicks you.

It's not at all me who needs the thicker skin, it's Lucha fans if they really see someone saying "Lucha sucks" as antagonism.

Got to deal with that better I think. Cos you know most people aren't actually as polite as I am online.

LOL!!!!!!!

 

Let's see what happens when someone says Dory sucks or Flair isn't a top ten wrestler of all time. Do you find that antagonist?

Outside of the context of GWE, I couldn't care less

 

Ok, now let's say that was the majority of people. The majority of people thought Flair was at best top 25 of all time, not close to number. In fact, a huge chunk of those people think Flair sucks.

 

Flair never won maybe 1 WON award. Maybe only a handful of 5 star matches, at most. Maybe only a couple.

 

Now what?

[goc]

 

 

It's not at all me who needs the thicker skin, it's Lucha fans if they really see someone saying "Lucha sucks" as antagonism.

Got to deal with that better I think. Cos you know most people aren't actually as polite as I am online.

LOL!!!!!!!

 

Let's see what happens when someone says Dory sucks or Flair isn't a top ten wrestler of all time. Do you find that antagonist?

 

Outside of the context of GWE, I couldn't care less

 

Your response to me making a joke on twitter about Jimmy Golden putting Flair to sleep like Flair's 60 minute draws did to me really say otherwise.

[Matt D]

There are a lot of interesting things in this thread and there are some we should probably double back on. I don't think the title of the thread is the most useful however, and personal attacks back and forth really aren't helping either.

[Grimmas]

There are a lot of interesting things in this thread and there are some we should probably double back on. I don't think the title of the thread is the most useful however, and personal attacks back and forth really aren't helping either.

I didn't mean the title to be an attack. I think it's pretty fair that puro gets super praise and lucha gets dismissed, but I can see how it would sound like a battle cry or something.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

 

It's not at all me who needs the thicker skin, it's Lucha fans if they really see someone saying "Lucha sucks" as antagonism.Got to deal with that better I think. Cos you know most people aren't actually as polite as I am online.

LOL!!!!!!! Let's see what happens when someone says Dory sucks or Flair isn't a top ten wrestler of all time. Do you find that antagonist?

Outside of the context of GWE, I couldn't care less

Your response to me making a joke on twitter about Jimmy Golden putting Flair to sleep like Flair's 60 minute draws did to me really say otherwise.

No clue what this is in reference to

[goc]

 

 

 

 

It's not at all me who needs the thicker skin, it's Lucha fans if they really see someone saying "Lucha sucks" as antagonism.Got to deal with that better I think. Cos you know most people aren't actually as polite as I am online.

LOL!!!!!!! Let's see what happens when someone says Dory sucks or Flair isn't a top ten wrestler of all time. Do you find that antagonist?

Outside of the context of GWE, I couldn't care less

Your response to me making a joke on twitter about Jimmy Golden putting Flair to sleep like Flair's 60 minute draws did to me really say otherwise.

No clue what this is in reference to

 

You getting upset and blocking me on twitter for a few weeks after this:

 

[JerryvonKramer]

Was a coincidence.

 

My point was really that outside of the GWE, there aren't any stakes. I maintain GWE was a net negative, increased tribalism decreased community, artificially turned even innocent conversions into things that suddenly seemed to have great weight placed on them.

 

People will talk up the fact everyone got exposed to more wrestling, I'll point to the fact that everyone is a bit more silo'd and less friendly than they used to be... fitting for 2016 I guess.

 

And now Grimmas is saying things like he doesn't want to watch puro cos puro fans ignore lucha...

[Grimmas]

And now Grimmas is saying things like he doesn't want to watch puro cos puro fans ignore lucha...

 

or Grimmas is saying he doesn't feel obligated to watch puro anymore, since puro fans don't feel obligated to watch lucha. That's a completely difference statement.

 

EDIT:

 

As for GWE, I think the amount of wrestlers that people were exposed to was a good thing. The discussions, the exploring was good fro everyone.

[Jetlag]

That last statement is just weird. You are supposed to watch wrestling because you like it and not because of some obligation. It's just an entertainment product I don't watch DG (for longer than 5 minutes at a time) because DG is fucking boring and not to spite people that don't watch Katsumi Usuda matches. Unless you watch wrestling for cred and not for enjoyment in that case Parv's hipster idea is true.

 

I will never understand how after years of internet age people get so offended because others don't like their stuff. It's not a personal insult. People not liking lucha is their own problem not mine. The only people who should worry about people liking a wrestling product are promoters.

[Cap]

Was a coincidence.

 

My point was really that outside of the GWE, there aren't any stakes. I maintain GWE was a net negative, increased tribalism decreased community, artificially turned even innocent conversions into things that suddenly seemed to have great weight placed on them.

 

People will talk up the fact everyone got exposed to more wrestling, I'll point to the fact that everyone is a bit more silo'd and less friendly than they used to be... fitting for 2016 I guess.

 

This seems spot on to me. I have said often that I am really glad you all did the GWE stuff because even though I didn't submit I really enjoyed following the podcasts and threads. Not only did they help me kill those bikes rides and walks to and from school, I (and here we go) got exposed to tones of good stuff that I just wouldn't have otherwise.

 

That said, the tone of the conversation here has changed. I don't participate much and do so in waves as I have time/motivation, but that project really seemed to do a number on some people and this is a different space now. This isn't some semi-invested poster harking for the good old days; I legit wonder if some people are having fun talking about wrestling anymore. I get it. A lot of people invested massive chunks of time and energy. I has to be draining, but I do hope whatever funk the GWE project put on the board as a whole wears off.

 

As for grimmas's obligation stuff, that makes perfect. Credibility is always negotiated actively in these spaces and this is a highly engaged and well educated board. People actively dismiss the opinions of others fairly frequently for not having seen this or that or not "getting" something or not backing up opinions with the right kind of evidence. Sure, it would be great if everyone just liked what they liked and we all may come in with that intention, but that isn't how discourse and credibility ever play out. I think in the case of some people - particularly those who are leading these communities and putting out lots of audio content as well - it isn't just a matter of watching for street cred. Those folks should be watching lots of stuff and formulating opinions on them, that makes the more knowledgeable, informed producers of content. They don't have to like it or even pretend to, but of course there are pressures to be somewhat versed in puro (particularly 90s all japan) if you are going to talk about wrestling in media where the target audience is internet wrestling fans.

[Herodes]

Parv, your post script to the GWE was an angry rant against the "wrong" type of fans who didn't follow the so called conventional wisdom that you defend so religiously. Someone who preferred Lawler to Flair didn't do so for genuine reasons, they were being "contrarian", wanting to right a wrong or make a point, "hipsters" who want to "challenge paradigms" etc. there's a sense of fragility when your orthodoxy is challenged, and a casting of suspicion as you position yourself as basing your list on the "right" reasons and thereby undermining the valid opinions of others. I don't want to harp on this but do so since you brought it up, after two years of debate and discussion, the epilogue was questioning motivations of fans which will of course foster negativity.

[Jmare007]

 

And now Grimmas is saying things like he doesn't want to watch puro cos puro fans ignore lucha...

 

or Grimmas is saying he doesn't feel obligated to watch puro anymore, since puro fans don't feel obligated to watch lucha. That's a completely difference statement.

 

 

 

I find this statement really weird. People not feeling obligated to watch wrestling they don't feel emotionally attached to (or that don't like a particular style) is something that happens across the board, not just lucha.

 

There's a ton of fans that don't like or know about indy wrestling and don't feel obligated to seek and watch the most pimped matches. Same for British wrestling, lucha and even puro.

[Grimmas]

 

 

And now Grimmas is saying things like he doesn't want to watch puro cos puro fans ignore lucha...

 

or Grimmas is saying he doesn't feel obligated to watch puro anymore, since puro fans don't feel obligated to watch lucha. That's a completely difference statement.

 

 

 

I find this statement really weird. People not feeling obligated to watch wrestling they don't feel emotionally attached to (or that don't like a particular style) is something that happens across the board, not just lucha.

 

There's a ton of fans that don't like or know about indy wrestling and don't feel obligated to seek and watch the most pimped matches. Same for British wrestling, lucha and even puro.

 

I felt obligated for years to try to seek out the best stuff of the year in order to make a best match of the year list or to feel worthy to talk about who is the best.

If you only watch your favourites how can you claim to make a best of anything list? Aren't you just making your favourites list then?

 

That was my mindset, but that is a minority mindset, so I'm dropping it.

[Jmare007]

 

 

 

And now Grimmas is saying things like he doesn't want to watch puro cos puro fans ignore lucha...

 

or Grimmas is saying he doesn't feel obligated to watch puro anymore, since puro fans don't feel obligated to watch lucha. That's a completely difference statement.

 

 

 

I find this statement really weird. People not feeling obligated to watch wrestling they don't feel emotionally attached to (or that don't like a particular style) is something that happens across the board, not just lucha.

 

There's a ton of fans that don't like or know about indy wrestling and don't feel obligated to seek and watch the most pimped matches. Same for British wrestling, lucha and even puro.

 

I felt obligated for years to try to seek out the best stuff of the year in order to make a best match of the year list or to feel worthy to talk about who is the best.

If you only watch your favourites how can you claim to make a best of anything list? Aren't you just making your favourites list then?

 

That was my mindset, but that is a minority mindset, so I'm dropping it.

 

 

I get that. I felt that way for like a year but couldn't keep it up because is quickly felt more like chore than anything else. What I don't understand is why single out puro when it something that happens with fans of almost every style.

[Dylan Waco]

The GWE exposed fissures that were already present. There are lots of interesting things that could be thought about looking at the results, and looking at my own ballot now - especially after the year that was 2016 - has me asking lots of questions about my own process, the role myth/narratives play in how we think about wrestling, et. Whether it was good or bad for the board depends on whether or not you think honesty and transparency is a good thing for community.

[Grimmas]

 

 

I get that. I felt that way for like a year but couldn't keep it up because is quickly felt more like chore than anything else. What I don't understand is why single out puro when it something that happens with fans of almost every style.

 

There is american, puro, and lucha as the three most successful and biggest wrestling.

 

American getting praise makes complete sense, it's our local stuff in our language. Puro and lucha are in different languages and has to bee seeked out. That's the only reason, as a comparison.

[Matt D]

The GWE exposed fissures that were already present. There are lots of interesting things that could be thought about looking at the results, and looking at my own ballot now - especially after the year that was 2016 - has me asking lots of questions about my own process, the role myth/narratives play in how we think about wrestling, et. Whether it was good or bad for the board depends on whether or not you think honesty and transparency is a good thing for community.

 

There were some points within this thread itself where it might make some sense for you to comment, Dylan, for instance the more cultural issues, some of which you (along with Herodes) raised. It certainly doesn't do the board good if people don't follow up with engagement. If there are things to follow up upon (outside even what's been raised in this very thread, which I think is a lot even past the initial question), follow up.

[KawadaSmile]

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but what my - somewhat limited - perception of this matter tells me that puro gives more of a "violent" vibe to it. Spots like people headbutting each other with loud thuds, clubbing lariats to the chest and neck, very loud kicks and gross looking head drops attract people in a way that smooth, fluid matwrestling doesn't.

 

I watched Blue Panther vs Atlantis the other day: it was absolutely amazing. Guys changing holds with immense fluidity, never spending more than 5 seconds in each hold, and going back and forth, while also giving the impression of an actual contest and not just a choreographed stunt show. However, I can understand someone wanting to watch Hashimoto and Tenryu beating the absolute fuck out of each other for 10 minute, as it seems a bit more "unpredictable" and "wild".

 

 

I'm not sure if this metaphor is a correct one, but Lucha would be something like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon; and puro would be something like that hallway scene from Oldboy.

[Grimmas]

The GWE exposed fissures that were already present. There are lots of interesting things that could be thought about looking at the results, and looking at my own ballot now - especially after the year that was 2016 - has me asking lots of questions about my own process, the role myth/narratives play in how we think about wrestling, et. Whether it was good or bad for the board depends on whether or not you think honesty and transparency is a good thing for community.

What sucks is that it seems some people didn't learn anything. Flair was #1 and that is all that mattered?

 

One thing I feel is needed is more champions for some huge areas of wrestling and a brand new narrative to be constructed.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't want a new narrative. I just want established narratives to be thought about critically. You can think about an established narrative critically and still conclude that it's right, or most right, or right enough.

[Dylan Waco]

 

The GWE exposed fissures that were already present. There are lots of interesting things that could be thought about looking at the results, and looking at my own ballot now - especially after the year that was 2016 - has me asking lots of questions about my own process, the role myth/narratives play in how we think about wrestling, et. Whether it was good or bad for the board depends on whether or not you think honesty and transparency is a good thing for community.

 

There were some points within this thread itself where it might make some sense for you to comment, Dylan, for instance the more cultural issues, some of which you (along with Herodes) raised. It certainly doesn't do the board good if people don't follow up with engagement. If there are things to follow up upon (outside even what's been raised in this very thread, which I think is a lot even past the initial question), follow up.

 

 

I've largely said my piece on those things. I'm not above engaging on the subject further, but I'm not sure where to begin, nor am I sure I care enough about the subject at this point to write on it at length.

[Grimmas]

I don't want a new narrative. I just want established narratives to be thought about critically. You can think about an established narrative critically and still conclude that it's right, or most right, or right enough.

True.

[cpst]

Why does watching pro wrestling have to be about the narrative? From reading posts and listening to podcasts it seems that some people are more into the discussion of wrestling than wrestling itself. Maybe this just has to do with what I do for a living, but for me, wrestling is something I come home and watch when I want a break from the sort of things I ordinarily do during the day.

 

I tend to focus on what viscerally pulls me in the most, which is coincidentally why I haven't invested that much time into lucha. The discussions on this board and the podcasts I listen to help me express why I enjoy what I do, and how to find other wrestling that is likely to be similar in that regard. In the GWE podcasts (at least the ones I listened to, I admit I got burned out and tapped out on a few), it seemed that the people that talked the most about how they were evading the "narrative" were also the most constrained by it.

[Matt D]

 

 

The GWE exposed fissures that were already present. There are lots of interesting things that could be thought about looking at the results, and looking at my own ballot now - especially after the year that was 2016 - has me asking lots of questions about my own process, the role myth/narratives play in how we think about wrestling, et. Whether it was good or bad for the board depends on whether or not you think honesty and transparency is a good thing for community.

 

There were some points within this thread itself where it might make some sense for you to comment, Dylan, for instance the more cultural issues, some of which you (along with Herodes) raised. It certainly doesn't do the board good if people don't follow up with engagement. If there are things to follow up upon (outside even what's been raised in this very thread, which I think is a lot even past the initial question), follow up.

 

 

I've largely said my piece on those things. I'm not above engaging on the subject further, but I'm not sure where to begin, nor am I sure I care enough about the subject at this point to write on it at length.

 

You don't care about the imperialism/hegemony arguments that were so haughtily thrashed and dismissed in this thread by certain people?

[Cap]

 

 

 

And now Grimmas is saying things like he doesn't want to watch puro cos puro fans ignore lucha...

 

or Grimmas is saying he doesn't feel obligated to watch puro anymore, since puro fans don't feel obligated to watch lucha. That's a completely difference statement.

 

 

 

I find this statement really weird. People not feeling obligated to watch wrestling they don't feel emotionally attached to (or that don't like a particular style) is something that happens across the board, not just lucha.

 

There's a ton of fans that don't like or know about indy wrestling and don't feel obligated to seek and watch the most pimped matches. Same for British wrestling, lucha and even puro.

 

I felt obligated for years to try to seek out the best stuff of the year in order to make a best match of the year list or to feel worthy to talk about who is the best.

If you only watch your favourites how can you claim to make a best of anything list? Aren't you just making your favourites list then?

 

That was my mindset, but that is a minority mindset, so I'm dropping it.

 

Honest curiosity, are you changing the way you watch wrestling because you think you will enjoy a new/different viewing habits/patterns (or whatever) or are you changing because you don't like that you feel like others (or maybe enough others?) are doing it? I am curious as to why you are changing how you watch wrestling... frustration? fatigue? something else all together?