Why does puro get so much love? Why does lucha get so dismissed?

[Cap]

I disagree that you can't judge a style by its high end matches. The majority of all wrestling is average at best, so why would you judge styles on what was the least average? High end matches represent the best a style can be. When I think of lucha I think of the high end matches. I don't think of the average stuff. Maybe I'm out of touch, but I always thought us fans were on the look out for great matches. I can't imagine waking up one day and thinking, "boy I sure feel like watching an average All Japan match," or watching said match and thinking "man, that was good. Another average All Japan match."

 

It's not like we're talking about matches that are outliers and make a worker seem like they were great when really they weren't. We're talking about the best matches from an entire style and what the style is fully capable of. The problem here is that people can't stop comparing lucha to what they think is good/great. They're imposing a standard on it instead of appreciating when it's done well. Not only that but there hasn't been any real consensus about what lucha is from the people who say it's not for them. It's not clear whether they mean the kind of comedy tropes that were adopted by the Michinoku pro guys ,the Memphis style brawling, the trios matches, the dive trains, or the tricked out matwork. It seems people are talking past each other when it comes to what they actual mean by "lucha." If we could all agree what lucha is considered particularly bad then that would be a starting point for guiding folks toward lucha that is considerably better and perhaps closer to their tastes.

I agree with the support and even somewhat the warrant, but not the claim completely. In all honesty, I am sort of a peak guy in terms of my own analysis and preferences. I would much rather watch high end wrestling (obviously?), and agree completely that you can tell a lot about a wrestler or style(s) by looking at the top stuff. My issue - and perhaps this wasn't clear and maybe Parv and I differ here - is that it is very limiting talk about a style or styles or region or wrestler or whatever when you are only looking at peak stuff. To understand why it is peak you have to kind of have some idea of what average looks like. We may not want to seek out average matches, but how are we supposed to know what we think of something if we haven't seen it? We are going to run into average stuff unless we are just taking some top match list we find and not veering from it. Those average (or slightly above or below or whatever that isn't "elite") are going to color how one sees a style/time period, not just the high end.

 

I am not saying you can't judge anything or make any sort of claims based on high end matches, but that doesn't tell the whole story and - more importantly to me - doesn't account completely for the genre or style that someone may be claiming to like or dislike. It is the relationship between the high end and the larger body of wrestling that interests me. I tend to think more and more people are looking for samplings of styles that will hook them in what sorts of samplings, what are the high end matches, that can hook people into the varied manifestations of lucha? For those who don't care for lucha, is there is a disconnect between the high end match and the average match that you don't see in other styles/time periods?

 

 

Aslo, spot on about lucha not being homogeneous. It has been brought up a few times in the thread and I keep hoping some people with more knowledge of lucha than me will dive into that a bit more

[JerryvonKramer]

Capital Truth - found it:

 

El Dandy vs. Satanico (12/14/90)

On the one hand, this was a lot easier to get into than the Angel Azteca match. Who doesn't like a double juice brawl? This was heated for sure, and El Dandy showed good spirit especially after the early assault where he started bleeding profusely early.

However, I wasn't feeling the hatred like others seem to. It didn't come through to me and I simply can't in good conscious rank this with those brawls I think transcend wrestling like Magnum vs Tully, Funks vs. Sheik / Abby '78, Patterson vs. Slaughter. I am closer to understanding what people are loving with this match, but I still don't think it really holds a candle to the high end brawls I've seen in American or Japanese wrestling. People were putting over the near falls in the third fall, but I didn't find myself invested in them for whatever reason.

I was also, admittedly, very confused by the finish. Satanico collides with the ref who falls out of the ring. El Dandy misses a kick, and then ... Starts a chicken dance?! What the fuck was happening? Then the ref comes in and raises El Dandy's arm, for what, a DQ? Seemed totally bizarre to me, and someone will have to explain that.

I did enjoy this, but I really didn't think it was one of the best matches I'd ever seen, or even close to that.

****

[Grimmas]

Capital Truth - found it:

 

El Dandy vs. Satanico (12/14/90)

On the one hand, this was a lot easier to get into than the Angel Azteca match. Who doesn't like a double juice brawl? This was heated for sure, and El Dandy showed good spirit especially after the early assault where he started bleeding profusely early.

However, I wasn't feeling the hatred like others seem to. It didn't come through to me and I simply can't in good conscious rank this with those brawls I think transcend wrestling like Magnum vs Tully, Funks vs. Sheik / Abby '78, Patterson vs. Slaughter. I am closer to understanding what people are loving with this match, but I still don't think it really holds a candle to the high end brawls I've seen in American or Japanese wrestling. People were putting over the near falls in the third fall, but I didn't find myself invested in them for whatever reason.

I was also, admittedly, very confused by the finish. Satanico collides with the ref who falls out of the ring. El Dandy misses a kick, and then ... Starts a chicken dance?! What the fuck was happening? Then the ref comes in and raises El Dandy's arm, for what, a DQ? Seemed totally bizarre to me, and someone will have to explain that.

I did enjoy this, but I really didn't think it was one of the best matches I'd ever seen, or even close to that.

****

 

I think what is missing from your viewing is context.

[stro]

I think he's asking for the context

[Grimmas]

I think he's asking for the context

Long feud, lots of hate.

 

It's been a while since I watched it, but I think El Dandy faked being low blowed. Low blows are DQ's, so referee saw El Dandy selling getting the low blow and DQ'ed Satanico.

It's epic justice, since Satanico faked low blows for wins very often.

[NintendoLogic]

Also, Satanico had done the same thing to Dandy in their October match.

[Grimmas]

It's almost like watching select matches doesn't allow you to fairly evaluate wrestling.

[stro]

It's almost like sitting through hours of TV for something you aren't that interested in to see something good isn't a great way to watch, either

[Grimmas]

It's almost like sitting through hours of TV for something you aren't that interested in to see something good isn't a great way to watch, either

Yeah.

 

I can't believe I watched that shitty first season of Babylon 5, which helped me set up the best 2-3 seasons of TV ever later on.

 

or that country I sat through which I didn't like at first, that helped me learn and really start to love it.

 

etc....

[El-P]

I can't believe I watched that shitty first season of Babylon 5, which helped me set up the best 2-3 seasons of TV ever later on.

 

In my arms ! (damn, one great thing of my 90's I had almost forgot about)

[JerryvonKramer]

This feels like much more hard work to me than my other experiences as a wrestling fan.

[The Russian Daydream]

This feels like much more hard work to me than my other experiences as a wrestling fan.

Absolutely this. There is so much wrestling out there that I want to watch because I know I'll enjoy it but can't find the time. I'm not going to be spending the time I do have watching something I don't like much in the vein hope it'll eventually get easier.

[Grimmas]

This feels like much more hard work to me than my other experiences as a wrestling fan.

You learned to love Dory. You set out to watch all the great AJPW. How is this any different?

[Grimmas]

 

This feels like much more hard work to me than my other experiences as a wrestling fan.

Absolutely this. There is so much wrestling out there that I want to watch because I know I'll enjoy it but can't find the time. I'm not going to be spending the time I do have watching something I don't like much in the vein hope it'll eventually get easier.

 

Shit, people really only watch the art they like and never try to expand into new areas?

[stro]

People usually don't go out of their way to watch something they aren't interested in or know they don't care for in hopes that watching/listening enough will gain them a new appreciation for it, if that's what you mean. That's not the same thing as refusing to expand your horizons.

[The Russian Daydream]

 

 

 

This feels like much more hard work to me than my other experiences as a wrestling fan.

Absolutely this. There is so much wrestling out there that I want to watch because I know I'll enjoy it but can't find the time. I'm not going to be spending the time I do have watching something I don't like much in the vein hope it'll eventually get easier.

Shit, people really only watch the art they like and never try to expand into new areas?

I also like to read. If I read a book but don't really like it, I don't usually head straight to the library to withdraw all of that author's work.

 

This is the same thing. I have watched Lucha and do watch matches that are recommended highly and even the odd full show. I just prefer other things.

 

I think I'm not alone.

[Matt D]

Person A: I love lucha.

Person B: I tried it. It sucks.

Person A: I know it can be hard to get into. It took me a lot of matches, and not just the great ones, but so many people I trust enjoyed it that I knew I was personally missing something and I kept at it. It took me a while to understand the narratives and the themes and what was really going on.

Person B: I don't have time for that. Other things are more enjoyable. No other sort of wrestling is like that.

Person A: Ok, I understand. I'm busy too. Just don't say it sucks.

Person B: No, lucha sucks.

 

Not everyone in the thread is Person B obviously but a good many.

[Grimmas]

I think another issue is lucha is best viewed weekly, not as big events or select matches. That goes against the way a lot of people watch wrestling.

[The Russian Daydream]

I think only one person said "Lucha sucks" (and I think that was said just to push a button rather than what he believed).

 

Mostly it was person B acknowledging that there are many classic Lucha matches, but on the whole it doesn't resonate in a way that makes the want to follow it thoroughly. Person B doesn't think it is his duty to do this if he doesn't want to as watching wrestling is something he does for his own personal enjoyment.

[Matt D]

I think only one person said "Lucha sucks" (and I think that was said just to push a button rather than what he believed).

 

Mostly it was person B acknowledging that there are many classic Lucha matches, but on the whole it doesn't resonate in a way that makes the want to follow it thoroughly. Person B doesn't think it is his duty to do this if he doesn't want to as watching wrestling is something he does for his own personal enjoyment.

And Steven might not be OK with that particular Person B as you described, but I am, so long as they're open to the idea that they may be missing something that others have learned to see.

[Grimmas]

 

I think only one person said "Lucha sucks" (and I think that was said just to push a button rather than what he believed).

 

Mostly it was person B acknowledging that there are many classic Lucha matches, but on the whole it doesn't resonate in a way that makes the want to follow it thoroughly. Person B doesn't think it is his duty to do this if he doesn't want to as watching wrestling is something he does for his own personal enjoyment.

And Steven might not be OK with that particular Person B as you described, but I am, so long as they're open to the idea that they may be missing something.

 

I'm ok with the individual doing that.

 

I'm not ok with wrestling history and narratives doing that.

[stro]

History and narratives are controlled by the individual, so I don't know if you're ever going to find an acceptable resolution for your issue

[Grimmas]

History and narratives are controlled by the individual, so I don't know if you're ever going to find an acceptable resolution for your issue

WTF?

 

History of America is not made up by me, there is a clear history and narrative. Same with history and narratives of everything.

 

Doesn't matter if I go around and say Nirvana didn't change the boring music industry, that is the history and narrative. I, as an individual, alone can not change that.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

This feels like much more hard work to me than my other experiences as a wrestling fan.

 

You learned to love Dory. You set out to watch all the great AJPW. How is this any different?

I watched the stuff and felt compelled for whatever reason to continue rather than being put off.

 

Dory was part of my wider project to deep dive into the 70s, I also looked at Jack Brisco, Harley Race, Giant Baba, The Destroyer, and others. Through it all, I gained a love of 70s AJPW and of the old NWA style.

 

Plenty of people dismiss that. It's longer form, it's slower in parts. I get "Dory is boring" jokes as par for the course. I don't really mind. I think the high end stuff speaks for itself, and all my reviews are there if anyone else wants to check that stuff out for themselves.

 

People kinda roll their eyes when I point them towards a 45-minute tag from 1977 ... something like Funks vs. Jumbo / Baba. Masterpiece of the style, textbook excellent wrestling in my view. Some people would rather watch five-minute Earthquake matches or the latest RAW. I get that, it's all cool.

 

During GWE, people were flat out saying stuff like Jumbo sucks, I cared because I thought it was important that someone with a career like that got his due. He fell from #1 in 2006 to #11 in 2016, which suggests that en masse people valued 70s AJPW less than they did ten years ago. I was against that because I didn't think GWE should be less a reflection of values and more a reflection of who had the greatest career with the most great matches in it.

 

Now GWE is over it doesn't matter, there are no stakes. I don't care in the slightest who does and doesn't watch 70s AJPW. If you find Jumbo boring, cool. If you think he sucks, fine. It doesn't matter.

 

And that's what I've been telling you since the start of this thread. It doesn't matter if I think lucha sucks or if you think 70s AJPW sucks. I'm not gonna try to make you watch Dory matches to try to change your mind.

 

I encourage people to discuss matches and review them.

[JRGoldman]

Why are people seemingly so opposed to the idea of "hard work" involved in the enjoyment of something? People say lucha being harder to grasp at first as though it's a criticism and a black mark on the style. Gravity's Rainbow requires more hard work to enjoy than Harry Potter does, but that doesn't make it less of an accomplishment or mean that it has less merit.