Why does puro get so much love? Why does lucha get so dismissed?

[stro]

I assume it is kind of like video game or movie nerds who spaz when their thing gets under 90% on whatever scale it's being rated on, because obviously critical response validates what you like. You've currently got thousands of video game fans sending angry tweets and emails to some critic that made the score of a game get down to 89%, because obviously he was WRONG and what he's doing is HARMING the game, and therefore, the player/viewer personally.

 

So really, DM not rating lucha matches high enough is a direct attack on lucha fans.

[Loss]

Dave has given more lucha matches ***** than that, mostly in 1993-1995 AAA. He was answering a question that didn't make sense in a format with limited characters more than he was saying that this match is the only match in the genre that's 5*, I think. His past rankings reflect that.

[El-P]

Not this again. Who fucking cares ? Watch whatever floats your boat and pimp it right if you enjoy.

[WingedEagle]

Why is there an issue with one person's subjective match ratings? They're right for him at the time he watches them. For some they'll be too high, others too low, and still more people may agree with them. Not sure why Grimmas is ascribing any type of objective bias to to this. Its not as though there's anything dishonest about opinions.

[Microstatistics]

I sort of get the point Grimmas is making. Meltzer announcing that he thinks only one match in Lucha history is ***** might cause many of his followers to think Lucha is inferior to puro/US wrestling and cause them to even outright dismiss it.

 

But that is just the subjective opinion of one person and people really shouldn't give it that much consideration. If they do, then it's their loss because Lucha might have clicked with them had they tried it (or it might not have which is just as valid as they came to that conclusion on their own). You can't really blame Meltzer there.

[NintendoLogic]

I think it's funny that while this thread is going on, there's a thread on the F4W forum wondering why Dave didn't give HBK/Undertaker five stars.

[Loss]

Why is there an issue with one person's subjective match ratings? They're right for him at the time he watches them. For some they'll be too high, others too low, and still more people may agree with them. Not sure why Grimmas is ascribing any type of objective bias to to this. Its not as though there's anything dishonest about opinions.

 

I think the belief is that Dave's influence is so massive among hardcore wrestling fans that his star ratings will either turn them on or turn them off to watching or caring about lucha libre, and I don't disagree. And if you are like me, when you see something great and appreciate it, you want others to see it and appreciate it, because at your core, you like seeing other people experience joy and happiness, especially when it's for the same reason you experienced joy and happiness. And when you see something awesome that no one has talked about, after you get past the initial reaction of, "Wow, it's awesome that we discovered this", there is a little disappointment that the performers were not celebrated for the greatness of the match when it actually happened, a process that Dave has more or less controlled for nearly 40 years. But anyway, it's not so much about one guy having a divergent opinion as much as it is about the weight that opinion carries. When people like the things we like, it's a nice reminder that we aren't alone in this world, it gives us a sense of community and it fulfills the human need to connect with other human beings, using professional wrestling as a medium to do so. I think that's generally true of any hobby with a social component.

[WingedEagle]

 

Why is there an issue with one person's subjective match ratings? They're right for him at the time he watches them. For some they'll be too high, others too low, and still more people may agree with them. Not sure why Grimmas is ascribing any type of objective bias to to this. Its not as though there's anything dishonest about opinions.

 

I think the belief is that Dave's influence is so massive among hardcore wrestling fans that his star ratings will either turn them on or turn them off to watching or caring about lucha libre, and I don't disagree. And if you are like me, when you see something great and appreciate it, you want others to see it and appreciate it, because at your core, you like seeing other people experience joy and happiness, especially when it's for the same reason you experienced joy and happiness. And when you see something awesome that no one has talked about, after you get past the initial reaction of, "Wow, it's awesome that we discovered this", there is a little disappointment that the performers were not celebrated for the greatness of the match when it actually happened, a process that Dave has more or less controlled for nearly 40 years. But anyway, it's not so much about one guy having a divergent opinion as much as it is about the weight that opinion carries. When people like the things we like, it's a nice reminder that we aren't alone in this world, it gives us a sense of community and it fulfills the human need to connect with other human beings, using professional wrestling as a medium to do so. I think that's generally true of any hobby with a social component.

 

 

Totally understand that, but using a single tweet as a launchpad seems a bit of a stretch, especially when CMLL's in-ring product has received more praise than just about anything other than NJPW from Dave in recent months, but on Twitter as well as in the Observer. Shouldn't these hardcore fans be interested in more than just the 5 star / best picture / GOAT candidates? I would think/hope fans at that level are looking a bit deeper, but perhaps my expectations are out of whack.

[Microstatistics]

I think it's funny that while this thread is going on, there's a thread on the F4W forum wondering why Dave didn't give HBK/Undertaker five stars.

 

I've heard the reason was that Taker's big dive spot looked awkward.

 

Edit: I'm assuming they are talking about WM 25 which is usually more acclaimed, even though personally I think WM 26 is a classic while WM25 is good but nothing more.

[Matt D]

 

Why is there an issue with one person's subjective match ratings? They're right for him at the time he watches them. For some they'll be too high, others too low, and still more people may agree with them. Not sure why Grimmas is ascribing any type of objective bias to to this. Its not as though there's anything dishonest about opinions.

 

I think the belief is that Dave's influence is so massive among hardcore wrestling fans that his star ratings will either turn them on or turn them off to watching or caring about lucha libre, and I don't disagree. And if you are like me, when you see something great and appreciate it, you want others to see it and appreciate it, because at your core, you like seeing other people experience joy and happiness, especially when it's for the same reason you experienced joy and happiness. And when you see something awesome that no one has talked about, after you get past the initial reaction of, "Wow, it's awesome that we discovered this", there is a little disappointment that the performers were not celebrated for the greatness of the match when it actually happened, a process that Dave has more or less controlled for nearly 40 years. But anyway, it's not so much about one guy having a divergent opinion as much as it is about the weight that opinion carries. When people like the things we like, it's a nice reminder that we aren't alone in this world, it gives us a sense of community and it fulfills the human need to connect with other human beings, using professional wrestling as a medium to do so. I think that's generally true of any hobby with a social component.

 

I think the bigger issue has always been that he missed the mark on about half of the things that made lucha great.

[elliott]

 

 

Well he gave the Los Gringos Locos match at When Worlds Collide 5 stars and gave the Atlantis match 4.75 so I don't he was literally saying that it's the only 5 star match.

 

Based on the question he was given "What MATCH do you consider 5 stars", I'd take it that the Atlantis match is his favorite.

 

This exactly.

 

If you have a problem with his answer, I'd like to know which lucha matches you consider to be surefire 5 star affairs. Because I don't know more than one either.

 

Easily,

 

UG-Atlantis

Atlantis-V3

MS-1-Sangre Chicana

Dandy-Azteca

Dandy-Satanico

 

and my viewing is super limited, there is a ton more I've heard others praise.

 

 

 

Working on my ridiculous 5 star matches project, I have 40 lucha matches rated 5 stars from 1983-2001.

 

 

 

1. Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 (Hair vs Hair) 9/23/83 EMLL

2. El Satanico vs Atlantis 1984 EMLL

3. Tony Salazar vs Herodes (Hair vs Hair) 3/2/84 EMLL

4. El Satanico vs Shiro Koshinaka (Hair vs Hair) 7/30/84 EMLL

5. El Satanico vs Gran Cochisse 9/14/84 EMLL

6. Perro Aguayo vs Sangre Chicana vs Villano III vs El Faraon (Elimination Match) 10/84 EMLL

7. El Satanico vs Super Astro 10/26/84 EMLL

8. Sangre Chicana vs Perro Aguayo 2/28/86 UWA

9. El Hijo del Santo vs Espanto Jr (Mask vs Mask) 8/31/86 Monterrey

10. El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas (Mask vs Hair) 7/18/87 WWA

11. El Hijo del Santo vs Espanto Jr 04/10/88 UWA

12. El Dandy vs Pirata Morgan (Hair vs Hair) 09/23/88 EMLL

13. El Dandy vs Emilio Charles Jr (Hair vs Hair) 7/28/89 EMLL

14. Atlantis, Super Astro & El Faraon vs Blue Panther, Fuerza Guerrera & Emilio Charles Jr 8/18/89 EMLL

15. El Satanico & Atlantis vs MS-1 & Tierra Viento y Fuego (Hair & Mask vs Hair & Mask) 9/22/89 EMLL

16. El Dandy vs Angel Azteca 06/01/90 EMLL

17. El Satanico vs El Dandy 10/26/90 EMLL

18. El Satanico vs El Dandy (Hair vs Hair) 12/14/90 EMLL

19. El Hijo del Santo vs Brazo de Oro (Mask vs Hair) 1/13/91 UWA

20. El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas 05/17/91 WWA

21. Atlantis vs Blue Panther 08/09/91 EMLL

22. Los Infernales vs Los Brazos 11/22/91 EMLL

23. Perro Aguayo, Rayo de Jalisco Jr & Konnan vs Cien Caras, Mascara Ano 2000 & Sangre Chicana 03/01/92 EMLL

24. El Hijo del Santo, Atsushi Onita & Tarzan Goto vs Negro Casas, Tim Patterson & Horace Boulder 5/16/92 FMW/WWA

25. Negro Casas vs El Dandy 07/03/92 EMLL

26. Blue Panther vs Super Astro 10/09/92 AAA

27. Negro Casas vs Ultimo Dragon 03/19/93 EMLL

28. El Satanico vs Pirata Morgan (Hair vs Hair) 11/26/93 AAA

29. Espectrito vs Mascarita Sagrada 03/12/94 AAA

30. El Hijo del Santo & Octagon vs Eddy Guerrero & Love Machine Art Barr (Masks vs Hairs) 11/06/94 AAA/IWC When Worlds Collide

31. Rey Misterio Jr vs Psicosis 09/22/95 AAA

32. El Hijo del Santo, Scorpio Jr & Bestia Salvaje vs Negro Casas, El Dandy & Hector Garza 11/29/96 CMLL

33. El Hijo del Santo vs El Dandy vs Negro Casas (Mask vs Hair vs Hair) 12/06/96 CMLL

34. El Hijo del Santo, Black Warrior, Silver King, Dr Wagner Jr, El Satanico, Scorpio Jr & Kevin Quinn vs Negro Casas, Ultimo Dragon, Atlantis, Shocker, Mascara Magica, La Fiera & Brazo de Oro (Torneo Cibernetico) 04/18/97 CMLL

35. El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas (Mask vs Hair) 09/19/97 CMLL

36. Atlantis vs Villano III (Mask vs Mask) 3/17/00 CMLL

37. El Hijo del Santo vs Blue Panther 04/09/00 Monterrey

38. Infierno en el Ring (El Satanico, Averno, Mephisto, Ultimo Guerrero, Rey Bucanero, Tarzan Boy & Mascara Magica) 09/28/01 CMLL

39. La Parka, Rey Mysterio Sr & Halloween vs Rey Mysterio Jr, Damian 666 & Vampiro 10/26/01 Tijuana

40. El Hijo del Santo vs La Parka (Super Llibre) 12/23/01 Monterrey

 

 

[stro]

I sort of get the point Grimmas is making. Meltzer announcing that he thinks only one match in Lucha history is ***** might cause many of his followers to think Lucha is inferior to puro/US wrestling and cause them to even outright dismiss it.

 

But that is just the subjective opinion of one person and people really shouldn't give it that much consideration. If they do, then it's their loss because Lucha might have clicked with them had they tried it (or it might not have which is just as valid as they came to that conclusion on their own). You can't really blame Meltzer there.

 

It was more like if someone asked Dave what he thought was a 5 star American match, he listed a Steamboat/Flair match, and then someone flew off the handle thinking Dave was declaring it the ONLY 5 star American match.

[Microstatistics]

 

 

 

Well he gave the Los Gringos Locos match at When Worlds Collide 5 stars and gave the Atlantis match 4.75 so I don't he was literally saying that it's the only 5 star match.

 

Based on the question he was given "What MATCH do you consider 5 stars", I'd take it that the Atlantis match is his favorite.

 

This exactly.

 

If you have a problem with his answer, I'd like to know which lucha matches you consider to be surefire 5 star affairs. Because I don't know more than one either.

 

Easily,

 

UG-Atlantis

Atlantis-V3

MS-1-Sangre Chicana

Dandy-Azteca

Dandy-Satanico

 

and my viewing is super limited, there is a ton more I've heard others praise.

 

 

 

Working on my ridiculous 5 star matches project, I have 40 lucha matches rated 5 stars from 1983-2001.

 

 

 

1. Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 (Hair vs Hair) 9/23/83 EMLL

2. El Satanico vs Atlantis 1984 EMLL

3. Tony Salazar vs Herodes (Hair vs Hair) 3/2/84 EMLL

4. El Satanico vs Shiro Koshinaka (Hair vs Hair) 7/30/84 EMLL

5. El Satanico vs Gran Cochisse 9/14/84 EMLL

6. Perro Aguayo vs Sangre Chicana vs Villano III vs El Faraon (Elimination Match) 10/84 EMLL

7. El Satanico vs Super Astro 10/26/84 EMLL

8. Sangre Chicana vs Perro Aguayo 2/28/86 UWA

9. El Hijo del Santo vs Espanto Jr (Mask vs Mask) 8/31/86 Monterrey

10. El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas (Mask vs Hair) 7/18/87 WWA

11. El Hijo del Santo vs Espanto Jr 04/10/88 UWA

12. El Dandy vs Pirata Morgan (Hair vs Hair) 09/23/88 EMLL

13. El Dandy vs Emilio Charles Jr (Hair vs Hair) 7/28/89 EMLL

14. Atlantis, Super Astro & El Faraon vs Blue Panther, Fuerza Guerrera & Emilio Charles Jr 8/18/89 EMLL

15. El Satanico & Atlantis vs MS-1 & Tierra Viento y Fuego (Hair & Mask vs Hair & Mask) 9/22/89 EMLL

16. El Dandy vs Angel Azteca 06/01/90 EMLL

17. El Satanico vs El Dandy 10/26/90 EMLL

18. El Satanico vs El Dandy (Hair vs Hair) 12/14/90 EMLL

19. El Hijo del Santo vs Brazo de Oro (Mask vs Hair) 1/13/91 UWA

20. El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas 05/17/91 WWA

21. Atlantis vs Blue Panther 08/09/91 EMLL

22. Los Infernales vs Los Brazos 11/22/91 EMLL

23. Perro Aguayo, Rayo de Jalisco Jr & Konnan vs Cien Caras, Mascara Ano 2000 & Sangre Chicana 03/01/92 EMLL

24. El Hijo del Santo, Atsushi Onita & Tarzan Goto vs Negro Casas, Tim Patterson & Horace Boulder 5/16/92 FMW/WWA

25. Negro Casas vs El Dandy 07/03/92 EMLL

26. Blue Panther vs Super Astro 10/09/92 AAA

27. Negro Casas vs Ultimo Dragon 03/19/93 EMLL

28. El Satanico vs Pirata Morgan (Hair vs Hair) 11/26/93 AAA

29. Espectrito vs Mascarita Sagrada 03/12/94 AAA

30. El Hijo del Santo & Octagon vs Eddy Guerrero & Love Machine Art Barr (Masks vs Hairs) 11/06/94 AAA/IWC When Worlds Collide

31. Rey Misterio Jr vs Psicosis 09/22/95 AAA

32. El Hijo del Santo, Scorpio Jr & Bestia Salvaje vs Negro Casas, El Dandy & Hector Garza 11/29/96 CMLL

33. El Hijo del Santo vs El Dandy vs Negro Casas (Mask vs Hair vs Hair) 12/06/96 CMLL

34. El Hijo del Santo, Black Warrior, Silver King, Dr Wagner Jr, El Satanico, Scorpio Jr & Kevin Quinn vs Negro Casas, Ultimo Dragon, Atlantis, Shocker, Mascara Magica, La Fiera & Brazo de Oro (Torneo Cibernetico) 04/18/97 CMLL

35. El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas (Mask vs Hair) 09/19/97 CMLL

36. Atlantis vs Villano III (Mask vs Mask) 3/17/00 CMLL

37. El Hijo del Santo vs Blue Panther 04/09/00 Monterrey

38. Infierno en el Ring (El Satanico, Averno, Mephisto, Ultimo Guerrero, Rey Bucanero, Tarzan Boy & Mascara Magica) 09/28/01 CMLL

39. La Parka, Rey Mysterio Sr & Halloween vs Rey Mysterio Jr, Damian 666 & Vampiro 10/26/01 Tijuana

40. El Hijo del Santo vs La Parka (Super Llibre) 12/23/01 Monterrey

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have Satanico vs. Koshinaka 84, Dandy vs. Azteca 90, Eddie/Barr vs. Santo/Octagon 94 and Santo vs. Dandy vs. Casas 96 at *****. But I only have like 13 matches in total at ***** at this moment so that's a pretty good ratio.

 

Two matches not on that list that I wanted to mention and I think are up there with the best matches from anywhere are Americo Rocca vs. Mocho Cota 1/27/84 and El Satanico vs. Sangre Chicana 5/26/89.

[ohtani's jacket]

You can't expect Dave to have watched the lucha classics from the 80s and 90s. The only thing that's relevant about Dave's opinions is whatever he's saying or tweeting about modern day CMLL. The vast majority of people interacting with Dave on Twitter are interested in 2017 wrestling not 1990. That said, it's pretty obvious that Dave thinks Atlantis vs. Villano III is the the greatest lucha match he's seen and not the sole lucha match he considers five stars.

[Grimmas]

 

I sort of get the point Grimmas is making. Meltzer announcing that he thinks only one match in Lucha history is ***** might cause many of his followers to think Lucha is inferior to puro/US wrestling and cause them to even outright dismiss it.

 

But that is just the subjective opinion of one person and people really shouldn't give it that much consideration. If they do, then it's their loss because Lucha might have clicked with them had they tried it (or it might not have which is just as valid as they came to that conclusion on their own). You can't really blame Meltzer there.

 

It was more like if someone asked Dave what he thought was a 5 star American match, he listed a Steamboat/Flair match, and then someone flew off the handle thinking Dave was declaring it the ONLY 5 star American match.

 

Dave would never answer like that, he would say there is too many to list or just ignore the question.

[gordi]

 

When people like the things we like, it's a nice reminder that we aren't alone in this world, it gives us a sense of community and it fulfills the human need to connect with other human beings, using professional wrestling as a medium to do so

It's so true. I always get a little weirded out when it seems like people would much rather fight about the stuff they like than share in the joy of the stuff they like.

 

Not that arguing about stuff isn't also fun. It totally is...

 

But shared joy is so much better. A writer I know once told me, "Shared joy is doubled. Shared sorrow is halved." I am quite sure that's basically correct.

 

I'm not exactly the world's most informed lucha libre fan, but I do enjoy a little Mexican wrestling from time to time. That simple fact has helped me to form friendships with other people I have met here in Japan who also like lucha libre, including some professional wrestlers. I have a little green towel that I sometimes use when I go to the gym. It is a souvenir from a Dos Caras/Gran Hamada show that was held a few years ago. The guy who gave me the towel was one of the wrestlers on that show. I get a little kick of joy every time I use it.

 

In some ways, and particularly when t comes to creating a sense of community, it' can also be nice when the things we like are niche or even unfashionable.

 

I like Japanese sake (nihonshu) a lot. Even here in Japan, it's not super popular. If I meet someone else who enjoys seeking out and tasting rare sake, we can almost immediately form a bond over our mutual unfashionable passion. It's not the same if I meet someone who likes beer. I mean, sure, we might go for a beer together... but if you wanna go to a sake bar it's going to be more memorable for me.

 

So... Maybe Dave and everyone else who may or may not underrate Mexican Wrestling is doing us lucha nerds an unintentional favour. Maybe if Mexican wrestling was all the rage, I never would have bonded with the friend who gave me that little green towel. It *is* nice when others like the same things we do, because it satisfies that beautiful human urge to share our joy...

 

... but it can also be nice to like good things that are under the radar of the zeitgeist. It allows us to connect with like-minded people.

[stro]

 

 

I sort of get the point Grimmas is making. Meltzer announcing that he thinks only one match in Lucha history is ***** might cause many of his followers to think Lucha is inferior to puro/US wrestling and cause them to even outright dismiss it.

 

But that is just the subjective opinion of one person and people really shouldn't give it that much consideration. If they do, then it's their loss because Lucha might have clicked with them had they tried it (or it might not have which is just as valid as they came to that conclusion on their own). You can't really blame Meltzer there.

 

It was more like if someone asked Dave what he thought was a 5 star American match, he listed a Steamboat/Flair match, and then someone flew off the handle thinking Dave was declaring it the ONLY 5 star American match.

 

Dave would never answer like that, he would say there is too many to list or just ignore the question.

 

Looks like he did answer that way

[Grimmas]

 

 

Looks like he did answer that way

 

Show me please or what are you talking about?

[concrete1992]

Blaming Meltzer for not rating lucha as highly or as often is absurd. The "Well if he talked about it and put it over more than the style would be more talked about" sure is a talking point but sort of pointless? Right now I think JR Goldberg is doing about as good a job as anyone using larger platform to discuss lucha in a more in-depth way than Meltzer ever will. And that's fine. More little voices putting out thoughts places they can be seen. Not just lucha centric coverage.

 

Also, what is the point of any of this? If you're on PWO there is a sizable amount of members who DO watch lucha.

[stro]

 

Looks like he did answer that way

 

Show me please or what are you talking about?

 

 

 

Dave Meltzer‏ @davemeltzerWON 7h7 hours ago

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Dave Meltzer Retweeted winyberto

Atlantis vs. Villano III

Dave Meltzer added,

winyberto @winy_leal

@davemeltzerWON in mexican wrestling, which match do you consider a five stars?

3 replies3 retweets14 likes

Reply

3

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Read the question. Read the answer. Which match do you consider a five star match in Mexican wrestling. He then gives an answer of a match that he considers a five star match in Mexican wrestling. No where does that imply that is the sole five star match in Mexican wrestling. He answered in a commensurate way with the way the question was asked. He has plenty of 5 star matches from lucha promotions in the past. He could have listed any one of them. That also wouldn't mean he was saying any of those was the sole five star match. You KNOW he has rated more than one lucha match at 5 stars, so I don't know what your problem with this is.

 

You simply misread. It happens.This is a dude that has covered lucha extensively for 30+ years and his favorite weekly wrestling show is a lucha show. I don't know what more you could want this guy to do to help you feel more validated in liking lucha.

[Grimmas]

Like I said, if the same thing was asked with Japan instead of Mexico in the question the answer would vastly different (or he would ignore it, like he did when I asked that).

 

It's also ridiculous that that type of question is asked, as it never would with Japan or America.

[stro]

I think you have a bit of a persecution complex, tbh. He can't list every 5 star match ever in Mexico, so he just named the first one he thought of/his favorite. Literally all there is to it.

[rzombie1988]

Just to jump in, I read it as - What's a 5 star lucha match? And Dave dropped V3 vs Atlantis, which was a a Match of the Decade candidate. Dave knows there's been other great matches, that's just one he mentioned. I'm sure he doesn't quite have the list that some of us do though.

 

I'm sure he could of mentioned more but who knows what the situation was. Maybe he was busy and maybe he wasn't overthinking it like people are here.

[elliott]

A couple of things: The question is awkwardly worded and twitter isn't the place for substantive responses. So that doesn't help. Since the question was posed as a singular (which match) instead of plural (which matches), perhaps Dave just named the first one that came to mind. Given Dave's views on lucha (and matches in general), at least he named Atlantis vs VIllano III and didn't say "Something with Rey Jr and Juventud in 1996."

 

What I'm curious about and I think would help shed light on it is if someone asked him (and he answered):

1. Are there other lucha matches you consider 5 stars?

2. In Japanese Wrestling, which match do you consider 5 stars?

3. In American Wrestling, which match do you consider 5 stars?

4. In British Wrestling, which match do you consider 5 stars?

5. In Women's Wrestling, which match do you consider 5 stars?\

 

How he answered those specific questions would help shed some light on why he answered the original one the way he did. If that has happened already, sorry I'm not on twitter.

 

I get where Grimmas is coming from. This is all mostly because of who Dave is and what he represents on a grander scale than just being some guy Grimmas disagrees with about match quality. It sucks that Dave isn't a bigger fan of lucha. Or as Matt said earlier, it kinda sucks that even while liking lucha, Dave "missed the mark on about half of the things that made lucha great."

 

I also think Loss' post here is fantastic

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/36262-why-does-puro-get-so-much-love-why-does-lucha-get-so-dismissed/?p=5791441

 

And shouldn't the real question be "In Mexican wrestling, which match do you consider a 6 stars?" Or have we all moved past that? Its still funny damnit!

[Coffey]

 

Why is there an issue with one person's subjective match ratings? They're right for him at the time he watches them. For some they'll be too high, others too low, and still more people may agree with them. Not sure why Grimmas is ascribing any type of objective bias to to this. Its not as though there's anything dishonest about opinions.

 

I think the belief is that Dave's influence is so massive among hardcore wrestling fans that his star ratings will either turn them on or turn them off to watching or caring about lucha libre, and I don't disagree. And if you are like me, when you see something great and appreciate it, you want others to see it and appreciate it, because at your core, you like seeing other people experience joy and happiness, especially when it's for the same reason you experienced joy and happiness. And when you see something awesome that no one has talked about, after you get past the initial reaction of, "Wow, it's awesome that we discovered this", there is a little disappointment that the performers were not celebrated for the greatness of the match when it actually happened, a process that Dave has more or less controlled for nearly 40 years.

 

 

This was how I felt after Wrestle Kingdom this year. When Tanahashi/Naito was over, I was like "wow, that was great! People are going to love that match!" Then when the show was over, I went online and all I saw/read was people praising Omega/Okada and the "6-stars" crap just made it so much worse.

 

So, in that regard, I totally understand how Lucha Libre fans would feel. Because it would be like how I felt there only on a much larger scale - never feeling like what you're into is getting the recognition that it deserves.

 

Regardless of how I personally feel about it, a lot of people do put a lot of weight into what Meltzer says, writes or the ratings that he gives matches. If he ignores a promotion or match entirely, it makes it feel like it's not important to some fans.